RELIGION

[Bass]

Please understand I am not trying to convert anyone to any faith. We have gotten into bit of argument about religions in the topic “What is the difference between with what happened to the Jews and Armenians” Arpa and Ali, if you reading this, please don’t take this personally. You have accused me of imposing my beliefs of religion on you, at least Arpa did. I’ve never clamed that the Catholics are Righteous or any other religion. In fact I stated the opposite, that religions are used and abused by the fundamentalists. I’ll say this again; half of my relatives were slaughtered only because they were Christians, and you can’t tell me otherwise.

 

Here is my point which no one seems to get. Most of all genocides were committed in the name of God, Allah or what ever God there named, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, atheists or any other religion. The enemies are not those who live by there faith, rather it’s the ones who abuse it. As I motioned before, I have many friends who happen to belong to other faiths, and I trust them more than some of my close relatives and even some priests in my own church.

 

Ali, you can’t really be serious when you said “Neither the entire past generation nor the present generation, culture or religion can be blamed for those events”

 

And

 

“Let us not hold religions responsible for the terrible events that happened in the past. But let us hold the sick people that committed them. Because all religions are about peace and harmony!”

 

Then who do you blame for the Genocide that took place recently in New York (9/11), do you remember that. It was the new generation that did it, and they did it in the name of God (religion)

 

Here is my statement:

 

I believe that the Armenian genocide was because of the religious differences. If I am wrong, please correct me and back it up with facts.

[hayemyes]

Dear Bass,

I would have to rather disagree with you on the idea that the Armenian Genocide was caused by religious differences. I can say that that could have been a factor, but one of the main reasons as we know it, is that Armenia has always been in the way of the Pan-Turanic empire that the Turanians had always dreamed of. All the other regions had become part of it, until it came up to us. We were bothering and closing the way to that empire, so that's where Turkish hatred began and caused the Genocide, among other factors.

[Bass]

Thanks Hayemyes for your answer. I just find it hard to believe that this kind of genocide was over property. Killing women and children, rape and the beheading, it is just hard to believe. I may be wrong, but I don’t know any genocidal war where women and children were slaughtered over property, in fact it’s the opposite. Women and children were spared, not because of mercy, but rather to own and use.

 

I mentioned in one of my previous posts in other topics, that my friend Vivian (who happens to be an Armenian) and I were constantly attacked by Muslim kids because we were Christian, the Muslim kids had to learn this hatred from somewhere, it wasn’t from the TV because we had the same channel (one channel), it wasn’t the internet, it didn’t exist back then, so it had to come from their homes and their preachers. Even in mosques, when the loud speaker was on, we could clearly hear the Mullah’s chanting into the microphone saying: “those Christians blasphemers”

 

When Vivian and I were forced to stay in the Islam religion class, we were taught that the Arab Muslims invaded, killed (murdered) and destroyed all the religious literature of there enemy, just because they didn’t want to convert to Islam, all this in the name of Allah. This is what we were taught in school.

[aman]

Those fanatics who committed the 9/11 attacks are not the representatives of the entire Islamic world.

"Many of us were persecuted just because we were Catholics, and the only reason the other side hated us, because they were muslims. Look at what they are doing now, do you think these people will stop….. I think not.

 

There goal is to eliminate all Christians and Jews, and make the world twisted, perverted and Islamic. "

Twisted, perverted and Islamic. These are unfortunate words. Does that mean my parents now perverted? What do my parents have to do with 9/11? My mother prays for peace for everyday. Can I or did I blame you for the satanic action of the Spanish, Portugese or French just because you share the same religion with them? Those are the ones who spread the epidemic, committed genocide, brought slavery to 20th century and they even justified their doings. Did I blame you because Spanish Queen Isabella displaced all the Jews and/or had engizition take care of them in the torture chambers? They were catholics!! Emperialism is perverted, colonialism, dependency theory, and poverty trap that have been implemented by catholic Spanish, Portugese and French along with others...Don't you share the same religion with those who punished those poor people? And how perverted do you think those actions were? And how logical is it for me to blame you for these? And how logical is it for you to blame all muslims for what you were subjected to? Please, come to your senses!!

"I’ve only experienced 1% of the type of persecution that the Armenians have endured, and I hate the muslims for it." Since the past is important and cannot be disregarded and the actions of those catholic nations changed the history of the world and humanity and caused increadible suffering and pain then it is perfectly legitimate for me to blame Christian religion and the cultures that practice Catholicism. This makes sense as much as your statement about 9/11 does. Those catholics caused millions to perish. A whole race, multiple races and cultures were eradicated by catholic world. And those actions are the main causes of the poverty in the South! India, South and Central America, Africa. Hunger, poverty has prevailed ever since catholics steped on those lands to impose their religion. In the name of God. Not 3000 not 4000 or 5000 but MILLIONS perished. And neo-emperialism is continuing to be implemented by your catholic brothers. So you must be guilty too! How logical is that man? There you go. Hatred is against any religion for any reason. But it is real and justified though it destroys the self and very being of the bearer of those feelings. Anyway, be cool.

 

[ March 13, 2003, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: justaman ]

[aman]

Makes sense. Those Pan-Turks, the racist radical group caused many problems not only to other ethnic groups but to their own people. The hatred against French and Russians might be another factor. God knows what the political reality of that time was. But so far I agree with you about Turanic part. The damn thing still exists. It just does not make any sense. Bloody thing appeared in the 19th century when the empire was going down. Until then everybody lived peacefully. Take care all!

[Bass]

Justaman, don’t be angry with me, because I am not angry with you. You’re agreeing with me but don’t realize it. Let me simplify this for you, you ready….. I agree at one time in history that Catholics abused their religion and became barbaric, but you can’t deny that Islam did the same thing and still doing it in the name of Allah!

 

“There goal is to eliminate all Christians and Jews, and make the world twisted, perverted and Islamic."

 

I am talking about the fundamentalist Muslims like Sadam and Ben laden. Like I said before, many Muslims have saved us from being killed and they were put to death for it. So you see it isn’t that I hate the Muslim people, it is the fundamentalist Muslims that I hate and have no sympathy for. You can’t blame me for hating them. You see, I’ve insulted your religion only a fraction of what insults I’ve received from the Muslims in Iraq, and look how mad you’ve gotten, words only, I haven’t laid a hand on you or killed any of your family. So, if it is okay for you to get mad over words, then it is okay for me to get mad over losing half of my family by murder.

 

Well, peace be with you.

[aman]

Islam did not do the same thing. It is not the religion but the people! I am not mad at you because you insulted Islam. I can care less. What I am mad at is you are insulting Islam and and expecting support and approval.

“There goal is to eliminate all Christians and Jews, and make the world twisted, perverted and Islamic." "perverted and muslim" not " islamic." That is the correct quote. I sympathize all religions, but I don't sympathize with radical people and they have no right to hate or criticize other people's beliefs. I won't do it to other people and will not allow other's do the same thing to anyone else ( if I can.) All these guys are my brothers and sisters. And you have no right to express your hatred in such a way and expect approval, sempathy and support from them against me. " I hate muslims for that"

You talked about the dirty business that some of the so called practitioners of Islam engaged with. You talked about messacars, genocides and other things. Yes, I don't deny the reality. Those people who committed those awful acts claimed to be muslims. I accept that. But when you make a generalization and blame all muslims and express your anger in an ugly way I cannot accept that ( Not because you are expressing it but because expecting sempathy and approval from my brothers and sisters and fanning their fire of hatred.) It does not matter whether I accept it or not. But the reality is not all muslims are like you are trying to present.

If you and I are at the same page and I am misunderstanding you then I apologize. Yes, you have many friends from different faiths but you only received brutality and intolerence from muslims, didn't you? You received insults, all kinds of aggression and stuff from muslims. I got tired of this BS. If you are catholic you are catholic...good for you. And anyone can ascribe any ethnoicity to him/herself and practice whatever religion they want to. Do not ascribe the personal actions and experienes to a larger population and make it a general attribute of Islam. Or please be coherent. Either you are not able to express what you are trying to say or changing it all the time. First you are writing that you hate muslims, then saying no just Saddam and Bin Ladin type, later you are saying 9/11 is Islam's doing because they acted for Allah.......then you are saying I am misunderstanding you. First they are attacking you, brutalizing you and now some of them are saving you and being put the death for that. Why are you telling these piece by piece. Why didn't you give those people who saved you some credit to start with instead of saying " I hate muslims for that"? I am thinking that you must make a decision, right? Take care. If you are going to blame Saddam say Saddam not Islam, if you are going to blame Bin Laden say Bin Laden. These people are not the sole representatives of the religion of Islam. Just like those who eradicated multiple races, caused ever lasting poverty on the world are not representatives of the religion of Christianity. Do you understand? It is enough. I hope you do. Even you don't I had enough of this subject and won't discuss it any more. Take care.

 

[ March 13, 2003, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: justaman ]

[Guest Fadi]

Dear Bass, I am not interested to discuss about religion, but will answer in short to the last part of your post, that is the part that has to do with this section of the forum.

 

Like I said on the other topic, Religion was more a tool then the real cause behind the genocide, it is the Turkish nationalism that was one of the main causes of the genocide, both nationalism and economy could be considered as being the hearth and the reason why the genocide happened, Religion was one of the elements needed to accomplish the genocide. By way of Holy war against the Christians, the nationalists have found a pretext to move their troops and the population against the Christians.

 

Many Islamic government, more particullary Abdhul Hamid II regime were known to be very rud against the Christians, but even during the Hamidian massacres of 1894-1896, there was no such plan to exterminate the Armenians, while those regimes were Islamic, that means, that other ellements were needed for the genocide, that those rulers didnt have, one of those ellements being nationalism, the Young-Turks took power in 1908, it was the only nationalist Turkish government ever existing, it was under a Turkish nationalist party, the Ittihadist branch of the CUP Young-Turkists, that the genocide was planned, executed and later consumed it was consumed by the continuation of those Young-Turkis the Kemalists.

 

Before the young Turks, there was many massacres, there was many illtreatment of the Christians, but there was no plan of compleat destruction of an entire people, this was against, even the rash regime, of the Islamic laws, but not against the nationalist laws.

 

[ March 14, 2003, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[THOTH]

Justaman/Bass etc al -

 

I sugest reading Melson - (I think ihis book is titled)Revolution and Genocide. It may open your eyes up to some causes of the Genocide (and ease your concern about folks "just" blaming Islam or thr Barbaric Turks etc. The factors that led to Genocide are very complex. Religion alone cannot account for it - neither can "just" greed. Remember Christains and Muslims coexisted (reletively) peacably for centuries under a - for the most part - tolerant (though perhaps repressive/unequal in many regards) Ottoman regiem. Certainly by the 18th-19th century the cracks were showing. The Genocide is primarily resulting from the death throws of Empire (and all the various factors caused by such - including economic issues, scapegoating, regression of Empire [with influx of refugees], as well as the rise of Pan-Turkick Nationalism). What Melson highlights is the role of revolutionary situations in societies for generating the extreme conditions (and twisted mental process to justify such...) that could allow for conditions where barbarity of humans towards other humans could reach such a scale. Its worth the read (as are Dadrians works and that of others) Domino could give you an excellent concise suggested reading list I think...

[Guest Fadi]

Here is a chapter of the book Thoth was talking about.

 

/cgi-bin/forum/ultim...c;f=10;t=000323

[Bass]

Dear Domino and Thoth, thank you for weighing in on this topic. Okay, maybe the Armenian genocide was not all because of religion, and I’ll accept that. But I will tell you this, there are far more books written about what triggers the genocide act than anything other topic ever written in history. I tend to believe the majority and my own personal experience. But I will read and learn more about what happened to the Armenians, because it is worth knowing about.

 

Oh, by the way, Ali. Read the real history about Spain and Queen Isabella get the truth straight, and stop reading the history books from your Turkish libraries. You yourself admitted that the Turks have twisted the history about the Armenian genocide and brainwash there children in schools by distorting the truth. You live in America know, you can find the real history books.

 

Here is your quote:

 

“Many of you probably have never been to Turkey and don't know about the general outlook about the genocide issue. It is rejected by Turkish educaton system. That is, the genocide is an Armenian claim according to Turkish History as it is taught in turkish schools”

 

Well, this is it for me on these sad topics, but I think I’ve made my point. Thank you for this website and I will see you in other happier topics.

[Arpa]

Hoping that this will be an epilogue to a long drawn, controversial and fruitless thread, this will have to be said.

Yes Armenians and other Christians were massacred during the Genocide. Armenians were the main target but there also was collateral damage since during those days the only distinguishing line between Turks and others was religion. It had come to a point where Armenians and other minorities having lost their culture and language, by design or default, could only be identified by their faith and which house of worship they frequented. Yes, many Chaldeans, Assyrians and other Christians were also massacred but the main target was Armenians since they were the only sizable minority who had a claim to the land. Turks knew that the others were less organized and coalesced to pose a threat, besides none of the others had a legitimate and provable claim for the land. I mentioned this before, ironically enough, the Asoris of Syria who were also (waht was left of them) expelled with the Armenians, spoke Armenian while the Armenians themselves did not, they spoke Turkish, hence the only discerning line was religion. This is not the end of the story. As recent as during the height of the Kurdish saga it was reported that Turkish authorities were examining the dead to see whether they were circumcized (Kurdish Muslims) or not (Christian Armenian). They even tried to accuse Ochalan to be an Armenian.

Turks will go to any rediculous length to once and for all exterminate Armenians since they know without any doubt that we have the deed to those lands (and we do). If in the process other Christians are also killed, so what! they say.

Once again the only yardstick the Turks have to separate a Turk from other "gavours"(infidels) is religion.

Dear Bassam, does this answer your question?

PS. If the Chaldeans and the Assyrians (you profess to not know the difference) were organized, concentrated (as the Armenians) and had claims to Anatolia they would be the prime target and Armenians would be the collateral.

This in no way is meant to belittle your rightful plight, it is just to separate religion from ethnicity (something some Armenians need to learn as well). Using religion as a weapon, hiding under the skirts of our clergy has won us.....ZERO. Is this reason enough for Armenians' reluctance to get into religiou debate???

[Arpa]

This will be my last remark, hoping it be the last.

Look at the map, do you see any other Christian land between Istanbul and Kamchatka other than Armenia? That is how people may play on the theme of religion.

Armenia (Christian or not) is the only country frustrating that great dream of PanTurkism. And God willing it will remain so until

 

"WE SHALL OVERCOME!!!!

[Arpa]

Bassam, I can feel your pain and understand your trepidations. As hostile and defensive Saddam and Assad may be towards Turkey today, there may come the day when they will all of a sudden remember that after all they are...

 

AKHWAN MUSLIMEEN

 

Translate please.

[aman]

Thanx for telling me what to do again.

1- This is not my reality. This is the reality of the jews and the events that they organize every year to express their appreciation to the administrators of those times for accepting them to their country when they were displaced by the Spanish Queen.

2- When I say I am only interested in the reality that means, ethically, I would not try to mislead people with what I thing is false information. Although I studied the turkish side of the history that is not the only side. I am not an absolutist but a relativist. Turkish education system twists the history to a certain extent so as to show turks as mighty, independent and powerful nation. But I have my own mind and studied different perspectives about the same issue.

3- Real history? What are you talking about? Spanish side of the history is as twisted as turkish side. Or Iraqi history and so forth. I study facts, find them and make my own decision about the reality of what is written.

4- Yes, turkish side of the history might be twisted about the Genocide issue but turkey has nothing to do with Isabella's expelling the jews and therefore there is no reason to twist the history.

5- "Yes my turkish librariries"

We have many good, real, objective books translated from different languages.

My friend, what you cannot do is accept the reality. I merely told the truth and you took offense. Suffering in the world is real! The hunger in Africa, environmental degradation, diseases, poverty and other kinds of misery were all mostly caused by colonialism of the catholic France, Spain, Portugal and other colonizers. And oddly enough, eventhough they admit their doings and accept responsibility they still do it in a different way and would do it in an old way if they could!!!!!As I write these in the university library I am looking at the books defining, explaining and elobrating on neo-colonialism, neo-emperialism of Catholic justice that is only valid for Vatican.

I don't look at reality with my religion or through my religion! But I look at reality with my eyes and evaluate it with my brain.

The reality is spreading of the sexual and other types of diseases via catholic Europe, the reality is the use of religion to confiscate the property of indeginous people of other continants by catholics. The reality is, that even catholic missionaries help this people to do something for God, not really to help those people, but to fulfill their religious duties by converting them to Christianity. The reality is Catholic greed that corrupted the 3/4s of the entire world. The reality is that if people are worshipping to a different god they are considered as primitive by Vatican. The reality is Engizition and torture chambers. You told me the reality about my people practicing Islam and there is the reality of your people of Catholicism. But neither your nor my people had any one like HINDU Ghandi! I accept too. But would Vatican? I doubt it!

Well, is this the religion's fault? No, it is the people. Their unethical, bogus, fake faith. They don't walk the road they talk. That is it. This is of course true for other people practicing other religions.

Bottomline is, I am not just writing to write. I am not writing to have my point accepted or approved. My goal is to be a teacher and that requiers a certain ethical principle such as reflecting the reality as objectively as possible. You can attack turks, turkish government and turkish libraries if that will satisfy you. But it won't do any good to you besides satisfying your hurt ego because of my rightous, real, and objective remarks. You know what, I am not happy because so many ugly things are ascribed to some of my people either. But it is reality and I must accept it. This I must do to have self-respect, to respect reality and to be a good teacher and to contribute to intellectual development of my students. Good day to you!

 

[ March 14, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: justaman ]

[Bass]

Ali, I thought I wasn’t going to respond to any of your garbage, but I couldn’t help it but, answer your silly, stooped and resentful arguments. When was the last time the Catholics or any other religions ever raped women, killed them and their children and slaughtered their men in the name of God? Don’t preach to me about my history, it was the damn Arabs that wanted to invade Spain and convert it to Islam, just like they did to the Chaldeans and Assyrians. Com on man get a grip, the Arabs were defeated on Spain’s soil, who was the intruder? Even a stupid man would figure this one out. You and people like you think that when your kind is defeated by your opposition, you called evil, you are a stupid man. You are so full of hatred that you can’t see the truth even when it is in front of you. Let me refresh your memory, and his is not from old history, it’s from today:

 

• 9/11 bombing and killing close to 5000 innocent people, men, women and children, all in the name of your Allah (Committed by muslims)

• So called Palestinians Gihad, killing innocent people by suicide bombing, all in the name of Allah, who is their target? Women and children (Committed by muslims)

• Bombing of embassies in the name of Allah, killing ordinary working men and women (Committed by muslims)

• What happened to my village, men, women and children were killed, all in the name of Allah (Committed by muslims)

• Sudan, they enslave Christians, that is hatred and don’t even tell me otherwise.

• The Armenian Genocide, even though I was told that the religion was a small element in this event. Well, all I know is that the massacres were Muslims and the victims were Christians.

 

If I lived in Iraq today and said what I have said to you, I would have been beheaded by know along with my family, stupid, you still don’t get it!!!!!

 

PS. you are not worth my time; you are accusing me of the things you’ve been doing to me. Typical fundamentalist!!!!

 

By the way, if you disapprove of Christian way of living, why in the hell are you living in a Christian country? Hypocrites. You come to this forum as a gentle, loving and caring person, but when you’re confronted, look how evil have you become.

[Stormig]

Bass,

What was done to the Moors and Jews was Vatican-sanctioned.

If you would like to take a look into more recent history, in the case of the Catholics, you might want to do some searching about the involvement of Franciscan priests in the Ustasha Croatian genocide of Serbs in the 1940's. Today Serbs (Orthodox) have feelings about Croatians (Catholics) and the Vatican not unlike your feelings toward Muslim fundamentalists for what they have put you through. In fact, there are claims against the Vatican Bank just as there are against Swiss Banks for Jewish gold deposited there. Or so there was last time I checked.

[Guest Fadi]

Bass, none of us need to tell anything about crimes commited by Muslim, every one here knows those crimes... in the name of holywars etc... in many Islamic countries 50 % of the population(women) are considered as animals. But what those things have anything to do with the Armenian genocide ? There is many sections in the forum, be it history or religion, where you can talk about those, its just that many are tired of discussing about religion, and this, in every boards in this forum, there are cathegories, and posts are made in boards, depending in which cathegories they are part of.

 

No many genocide are really caused by religion, the same religion will have many different interpretation depending of the believer, genocides are done under banner of ideologies, nationalism etc... and the most full scale genocide that happened in the last century, happened because of nationalism, and the exclusion of a group from another group, religions are an ellement, like many other ellements.

 

I just don't know what to say more, I just have enought of this perpetual discussion about religion,... sorry friend, I am ready to discuss with you about everything, but not religion...

 

[ March 15, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Sip]

The general masses of people are idiots ... complete morons. I see a lot of value in religion to keep these imbeciles that inhabit our earth in check by providing them a strict, well-defined set of rules to follow.

 

Unfortunately, religion has had it's downsides but I don't think we would have had the world we have now if it wasn't for organized religion. Let's not forget for example that eventhough the Catholics have caused many deaths and lots of destruction, they were the leading force behind the amazing progress in Europe.

 

Yes, regligion has led to many horrible things ... but my entire body cringes at the thought of what would have happened if there were no strict "rules" to lead the dumb masses that have and continue to inhabit the earth.

 

[ March 15, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Guest Fadi]

Ooooff... Religion again.

 

As my theory goes.

 

If a god existed, what, he/she would like, that people believe in him, and that in his name, wrong doings are done, or that those people don't belive him/her, but that at least no wrong-doings are done on his/her name ?

 

I rather prefer chosing the second one, at least I will not decieve in the event of an existing god.

 

Now, MosJan, if you could just take this topic and send it where it should be ?

 

[ March 15, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[Bass]

When they abuse religion and slaughter people in the name of God is one thing, I agree that many thugs have used religion to conquer and kill people in the name of God, but it is another when the religion itself perches hatred. You can’t tell me that the Catholic and the Orthodox Church preaches hatred, maybe some extremist do, not the dogmatic teaching of the church. Come on guys, get real…

 

Every time there is a genocide committed by the Islamic world, all Arab Muslims defend it; you can’t tell me I can’t believe my eyes and my ears! It is all over the TV.

 

What happened when Milosevic was slaughtering Muslims in the name of Christianity? He was stopped and defeated by another Christian country (USA) remember?

 

What happened when Hitler committed genocide agents the Jews in the name of Christianity? He was stopped and defeated by another Christian country (USA) remember?

 

Domino, this topic is Religion. All of you have attached Catholics, Orthodox and Christianity in general, but none of you said anything about the Muslims who committed genocide against anyone who don’t agree with tem, what’s up with that?