Sip Posted January 14, 2003 Report Share Posted January 14, 2003 WOW !!!! Bruin, your poetry brought a tear to my eye. Soooo beautiful. So touching. Unfortunately, I gotta run to a meeting now but just wanted to say WOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by gamavor:"I was told God exists, I used to pray but my prayers were not returned. Why should I believe in God? If it exists it is not good because it never helped me when I needed help. I would rather be an atheist, that way I am not lying to myself." How do you know that He didn't help you? Gamavor, a lot of people pray for money and other material things and do not receive anything, or not enough So they complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sip:Sasun, I think we are in sync I understand your position now and I think it is a valid one. I also like your different "atheists" listing. To clarify my position, here's a #9 (which I fit in) 9) God being the embodiment of all that is good (and only good) sounds too made up to be true. However, although I do not believe in that God, I do not reject the possibility of it's existance.Sip, I see your point. We are in sync I once had the same view, although for a different reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by axel:My definition of an atheist (and that of Sasun, I guess ) is "a person who believes God does not exist". Axel, it is also my definition, or one of the ways I see an atheist. I know someone who claims to be an agnostic, but hates god and religion, and doesn't miss the opportunity to express himself accordingly. His excuse is that religion has caused so many wars, and now terrorism, therefore a god cannot be a good thing. Then he says that he doesn't know if there is god or not. To me, he is an atheist quote:OK - more on the mark here - but I don't understand what stealing things or wanting to be famous or such have to do with anything (relating to one particualr religious belief set versus another...). These attributes in man/woman existed long before any contemplation of (Christian or Monotheistic "God") and are traits I think found no more or less with believers or those who do not believe. In fact I can most likely cite more examples of supposed or self-proclaimed Christians who exhibit such traits and behaviors then those who claim to be or are Atheists. My basic position: "God" is a waste of time. Contemplating the nature of and desires of etc some (fictional) "God" serves no purpose (to me). If thats what makes you happy - or if you truly believe (that you need such) - well fine. But don't go thinking - saying - that those of us who do not believe as you do have any lesser qualities or what not. Because when you do - I will start to call you (bad) names.THOTH, if someone calls himself a believer that doesn't mean he is good or superior to non-beleivers. It doesn't even mean that he is a believer. Likewise, a non-beliver does not automatically mean a bad person, or a person having lesser qualities. Actually, one thing should be made clear. There are different levels of spiritual development. You can sincerely believe and call yourself a believer, but not do anything that your belief teaches you to do. This is a 0 level of development. There are also believers who we never or rarely meet or hear anything about. These are the true believers who are busy with their spiritual development. We never see true believers wandering around and teaching morality or teaching lessons, or calling names to atheists. As a former atheist and a present believer (of slightly above 0 degree of spiritual development), I can just say that non-believers are missing the most important thing that one could possibly have in life. Call it a subjective opinion, that's my stance. quote: Seeming essence of your belief: All that is good is attributable to "God" - all that is bad - well thats man's fault... What if it was true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by THOTH: quote:Originally posted by 564312:Atheism the belief of no God. But isn’t that a belief, religion in itself? Hardly. Just becasue I can't fathom your verison of reality doesn't pigeon hole me. I say that I don't know (Agnostic) and cannot know - that it is beyond knowing. This to me - is a statement of fact. Religion is based on faith that ones supersticsions are in fact some sort of explanation for reality. Might your/some Christian version of reality be accurate - I think it highly unlikely. But I supose in the absolute consideration of things it is possible. It now becomes a statistical exercise. When grouped with all of the other possibilities - well I'm not much worried about hell/damnation & punishments. Nor do I feel that any particualr prayer is likely to be answered anytime soon... quote:Originally posted by 564312:Sidharta who preached taking the middle road and the existence of no gods became god himself – Buddha.Blame it on his deluded followers. And I blame Paul - not Jesus BTW. He may have well been a pretty stright up guy. He might have been something completly different BTW. I suggest reading "Behold the Man" by Micheal Moorcock. A caution though - it may drive you insane. LOL quote:Originally posted by 564312:Addictions can be classified as gods; so perhaps there is no true atheism.I fail to see any relevance to this statement. Please read again the definition of Atheism. Also consider that not all accept any gods regardless. But concerning addictions etc - another book I would suggest: "Deathbird" (and other short stories - Harlan Ellison. has a particualry nice story concerning gambling additiction...(and all the stories are about these "new" Gods of modern society...(as you reference) quote:Originally posted by 564312:It says in the Bible “You are gods” as gods we create, even the words we speak and write creates. We have also created a web of dogmas defining God. So is God just a figment of human primitiveness? For thousands of centuries? Or is this search for God paternal deeply rutted in our genetics. I see Jesus as the answer because he gives the simple truth of God, the love of God for us. Simple isn't always correct - often is not. Man has often trumpeted simple answers based on his level of technology/understanding that are ultimatly prooved simply incorrect. As for what is genetically within us - first don't forget/ignore the (profound & necessary) role of bacteria (suggest reading Darwins Radio by Greg Bear and (forgot title..I'll get back to it) - each concerned with the role of bacteria in human evolution. quote:Originally posted by 564312:A person does not need to believe in God to be moral a person is moral because of their upbringing, because of recognizing existence of the consciousness.agree quote:Originally posted by 564312:Jesus says “I am the way”, “I give you peace, not the way the world gives” incredible words also stumbling block for so many. Jesus is talking about this peace, this love that no matter how good you are you cannot achieve, the unconditional Love, The spirit of God a river that quenches completely. To be moral is to be human there is no reward, to recognize God is a great reward.If it works for you - fine. I have also seen examples where people (I have known) who have been messed up in life have improved themselves after "finding God" - so I can see this as well... quote:Originally posted by 564312:I think that God wants recognition just like a parent wants recognition from the child. And the recognition is the Faith “Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”. Anyways I typed a whole page on this before. Why does "God" really care? Is he really so shallow? (you don't have to answer this - it is a rhetorical question...) quote:Originally posted by 564312:I agree with Sasun that faith is valuable and must be respected in people.Why can't "lack of faith" also be respected? Isn't it just as legitimate? Its certainly being honest with oneself - at least it is in my case. quote:Originally posted by 564312:True faith cannot be lost very easily, no our apostolic church does not defy who we are as a nation but the faith of many heroes does. Apostolic Church is no different then Catholic Church or Benny Hin. Catholic priests molest little boy, The Armenian priests close the doors on the faces of homeless Armenian refugees. I heard more then one times words from Armenian priests “this is a church not a place to stay” “no one told you to leave go back were you came from” The days of Khrimian Hayrik are long gone. So many disagreements concerning what is "true faith".....sigh Also somewhere - forget if it was this post or another- someone said something about "unconditional love" only comming from "God" - well again I disagree. I experience such with my children (and the rest of my family)...and I do not require it to be God-filtered or whatever...anyway - just an aside..All your posts seem kind of interesting...you keep quoting books...what do YOU think? books are just opinions, other points of view that are there for learning, comparison,...etc. If you don't mind I'm just curious to know as to why you seem so angry/rebellious? or at least come across that way?!?... by the way, I don't think anyone's made the distinction yet between a hard core atheist (you) and an agnostic such as Sip (one who doubts the existence of God)... the older I get (and I'm not that old! ) I realize that what I believe to be solid facts at this time in life may not be reality...how can you be so absolutely sure everything you say is so right and valid?~~~~~~ Funny thing is I'm still waiting to meet an atheist who is not angry...that is just fascinating to me...because if you don't believe in it, then why get angry or upset whenever the topic of God comes up? I always feel this certain defensiveness from atheists even face to face...there's this uneasy feeling inside them...my opinion: (and I don't claim it to be the gospel truth!) is that these individuals feel anger because they feel pain; pain of being abandoned by God and feeling that he does not care, and does not love...therefore he must not exist... I knew an atheist who had a hard time understanding others and just being friendly...he always put someone down...called someone "stupid" and never wanted to give anything or receive anything from anyone...and the most ironic thing of all he couldn't even explain his reasons for believeing in atheism... They're not all that way...but more often than not, I feel this bitter, bitter resentment existing inside of them...I have yet to meet an atheist who is totally at peace with his beliefs not just in his head, but also in his heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 Sasun, we're in full sync and I guess we followed a similar path for I also used to consider myself as an atheist. The few hardcore atheists who take their belief to its consequences end up as nihilists. 564312, you forgot to mention "The Possessed" which is quite relevant in the context of this discussion esp. the character of Stavroguine which, I am now convinced, is not just the fruit of the imagination of an epileptic author for I have encountered such people that have a clear conscience of what good and evil are and yet deliberately choose evil. There is a religious dimension to evil in this world, which is obvious in bolshevism but also in contemporary ideologies, although some do not perceive it. As for the three age metaphor I used in my original post, it is somehow exposed in "A raw youth" if I recall and incarnated by the three Karamazov brothers (Mitia, Ivan and Aliosha). As far as the temporal church is concerned, it it like any human institution subject to deviances and evil but this doesn't affect its theology which, unlike the Roman catholic church, has not been modified to fulfill temporal ambitions (eg. filio que...). I tend to share the Christian Orthodox view on the catholic church. Anyhow, the Apostolic Church is an integral part of our culture and one should not reject it as the invisible Church (which is far more than a human institution) is not to be held responsible for the deviances of some of its priests which contradict its teachings. The problem with non-orthodox churches is that the Spirit has been corrupted at its very root. Once again, this does not mean their followers (and some of its members) are not well-intentioned people. [ January 15, 2003, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: axel ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 quote:True faith cannot be lost very easily, no our apostolic church does not defy who we are as a nation but the faith of many heroes doesI agree with you but the question is whether when you speak of the Church, you merely consider the human institution and discard the spiritual dimension (which seems to be the case) or define it as the union of all the faithful in spiritual communion (which is quite a different view). PS for Sip: People who have faith are usually not termed agnostic (at least not in french) but if you want, one may distinguish between "agnostics" who have faith (my case) and others who don't (your case) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 By definition an Agnostic is without faith. If an Agnostic had faith he would not be Agnostic. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 I was referring to Sip's dictionary definition of an agnostic being someone who believes the existence of God cannot be either proved or disproved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by axel:I was referring to Sip's dictionary definition of an agnostic being someone who believes the existence of God cannot be either proved or disproved. Me too. If one does not believe 100% in the validity of the diety - how can one have faith? Is just throwing ones lot in where you feel the odds might favor you (considering consequences of being wrong) legitimate? (particularly if one really does not buy into the proof of such a beings existance)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 Hyebruin - I am not at all an angry person (or sad or depressed or in pain or uneasy or whatever). If you ever would meet me in person you would have no doubt of this. None at all. Very much the opposite in fact. Neither am I bitter, nor do I feel abandoned (by "God" or anyone). What I don't like is when people assume I have some kind of problem because I am not Christian. Why is it Ok for Christians to attempt to convert/convince me or whatever - that their beliefs are true and that I am somehow mistaken or lacking - but when I stste my beliefs I am a troubled person or such. In fact - if anything - the opposite is true. And you ask - how can i be so sure in my beliefs. Well - many reasons. I think I have explained most of them. But let me say one thing - I have a degree in Anthropology and much of my studies concerned religion, superstition and myth - from various cultures. Well - they can't all be true can they? What makes Christianity any better then any others? (no need to answer that). And in fact I see so much that is out and out wrong with Christian beleif/doctine - particualr in the ways it goes against man's nature and against nature. I also find many fundemental concepts quite distasteful. Additionally I have studied much of the origins of the Jewsih and Christian religions - enough to see where concepts derived from and where iddeas were taken from and why. It is clearly a religion made by man - as all are. And there is absolutly no basis fr any belief in the supernatural - only aknowledgement that there may be things beyond what we do and can know. So why is your version any more legitimate than anyone elses? Just because some set of books has been complied - using many other sources and with many contradicitons and a history and controversy regarding its assembly. etc etc - well I am no fool. Go ahead and believe in fairy tales for all I care. But please do not suppose it is I who have the problem. And further I find it absolutly ludicrous that you are accusing me of non-originality in my thinking because I am recommending some books to read (to open your mind up). How many times has someone suggested I read the Bible (done that) or quoted from it for "answers" and such - Ha! BTW - I have many Christian friends (and a relative or two...). Some of these are people who actually practice/live it versus just preach - and these are very few I think. They have my utmost respect. Somehow we get along quite well. We tolerate each other and I cannot recall any instance of anger or bad feelings between us. I also have a great many Atheist (or near so) friends (and relatives/family) - and they are good people too - without any anger, insecurity or complexes - at least not that is visible to me - etc. I think you need to get out more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sasun: quote:I can just say that non-believers are missing the most important thing that one could possibly have in life. Call it a subjective opinion, that's my stance.Yes - that is opinion. I think that you are wasting your time. That is my opinion. But thats OK - as long as you aren't hurting anyone - and f you really need to believe in these (totally unprovable/unkown & contradictory) things outside of yourself - well what can I say - I hope that it helps. However, there is nothing in this belief for me - beyond perhaps many of the general principals and such - already internalized - common to most all belief systems - that itemize some of the do's and don'ts etc...OK - most of them have some usefulness - as long as not taken too far or misapplied...and they do not need a god concept for them to be valid. In fact Thomas Jefferson completly re-wrote the Bible taking "God" out of it. Think about it. I still don't believe that most of it is true - even without the big guy. But certainly many of the lessons are good/relevant. quote:Originally posted by Sasun: Seeming essence of your belief: All that is good is attributable to "God" - all that is bad - well thats man's fault... What if it was true? If this were true then there would be no hope. It would meen that we are all part of a sick game. What good would rules be if man was fundementally evil. Why bother? Do we comply with "God's" laws only out of fear? Again - what good is that? So like your false concept of "God" in general - there is really no realistic possibility of such a condition being true. (and if it was how could you love/obey such a twisted being - that toys with us so for his pleasure?) And if "God" is a being as outlined in the Bible - there is more than enough evidence of his evil and petty nature to disprove this contention. In fact - what additional torture he now heaps upon mankind - he has made us all evil - yet he demands love and goodnes from us (etc) - my what a paradox he has created - and to what end - to satisfy some petty whim? Why does this god need our love so much? Can't we just get him a blow up doll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by THOTH:BTW - I have many Christian friends (and a relative or two...). Some of these are people who actually practice/live it versus just preach - and these are very few I think. They have my utmost respect. Somehow we get along quite well. We tolerate each other and I cannot recall any instance of anger or bad feelings between us. I also have a great many Atheist (or near so) friends (and relatives/family) - and they are good people too - without any anger, insecurity or complexes - at least not that is visible to me - etc. I think you need to get out more.[/QB]If you notice, I asked you what makes you think you are so sure of everthing that you believe; I did not attack you or whether "you get out" or if your "mind is open"...I have yet to see a posting of you where you do not attack someone in your posts But, hey I don't take it personally, because contradictory to your vast wisdom of whether I "get out" or not, I've seen enough people who say one thing and sound like the exact opposite... chill out dude! your religious affiliations (whether they exist or not!) have no bearing on me...and we Christians are not all "converters" as you perceive!...I had to duck the missles coming out of my screen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 THOTH, I don't see any contradiction in my reasoning. Faith is not about proofs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 hyebruin - Somehow it always seems Ok for "believers" to make generic (and specific) claims about non-believers such as you have done - "they all are insecure" or "they all have anger" etc and question their integrity (prone to steal things - Sasun or someone indicated...etc) - and make assumptions such as - well they are wrong to not believe etc etc - but when a non-believer so much as questions belief in religious dogma etc and perhaps questions the sanity, intelect, need for reassurance beyond themselves (or at least saying that they feel no need for these things, makes no sense to them why they [or anyone really] should believe such - and my there are some pretty wild/out there stories & ideas that these peole accept as factual (spirits among us for instance...etc) - then of course it is the nasty non-believer on the attack. I reject this. Just the same I am sorry that you feel I am being mean or such. I have nothing against you personally - you seem like a nice person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 axel - I'm trying to give you some time so that perhaps it will sink in - but aparently not. So lets review a bit here: Agnostic - and agnostic cannot be a beliver in "God". By definition an Agnostic thinks that there is insufficient proof to say one way or another if "God" does or does not exist. (they are awaitng further "proof") If an Agnostic were to have faith in (the exisitance of) "God" then they would have made a decision to accept that "God" exists - to believe - based on what is known. If one says "I am agnostic" they are claiming (essentially) that they do not believe in "God" - that they have not been sufficiently swayed towards such belief. You cannot have faith if you do not believe - no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 I had earlier mentioned some boks regarding the influence of bacteria on our genetics and evolution - but I did not have the titles of one of the books...well I remembered - so here goes. The book "Vitals" by Gred Bear is fiction - but (like his other book "Darwins Radio") is based on the very latest in the science of Genetics and the study of bacteria and othe rmicrobes (and their relationship to human [and other multi-celled creature] evolution - in fact our dependence on such). Vitals follows the story of a scientist researching aging (and trying to find a way for people to live forever) - when he uncovers the role of bacteria in our genetics - specifically in regads to aging - but with even much more of a role - even to include very specific behavior control. The conspiracy theorists will have a field day with this one - as it ties in the masons and other illiminate type of groups...great stuff. Darwins Radio concerns the idea that evolution may not be gradual but programmed to occur rapidly (by certain types of bacteria) when specific conditions are met. It looks at (and speculates) the relationship between us and Neantertals and between us and the human species to follow...also great stuff and extremely thought provoking - even if the premiss my be somewhat speculative. Here are some Amazon links for further info - Vitals: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/03 45423348/qid=1042731150/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-8222900-8245428?v=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books Darwins Radio: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/03 45423348/qid=1042731150/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-8222900-8245428?v=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books://http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books And out soon - Darwins Children! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books [ January 16, 2003, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 sorry, I must be dumb so do not bother... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 quote:If this were true then there would be no hope. It would meen that we are all part of a sick game. What good would rules be if man was fundementally evil. Why bother? Do we comply with "God's" laws only out of fear? Again - what good is that? So like your false concept of "God" in general - there is really no realistic possibility of such a condition being true. (and if it was how could you love/obey such a twisted being - that toys with us so for his pleasure?) And if "God" is a being as outlined in the Bible - there is more than enough evidence of his evil and petty nature to disprove this contention. In fact - what additional torture he now heaps upon mankind - he has made us all evil - yet he demands love and goodnes from us (etc) - my what a paradox he has created - and to what end - to satisfy some petty whim? Why does this god need our love so much? Can't we just get him a blow up doll? Where did you get this idea of God? If you read anything I suppose you have misunderstood, or read something wrong. Either way, we are talking about very different things, and if we continue talking about different things that would be a waste of time.Hyebruin is raising a good point: how can you be sure about the things that you believe? As to atheists being prone to stealing, I didn't say that. What I meant some thiefs would prefer to be atheists so they could steal. The choice maybe consious or unconscious, and the thief may not even think that he is an atheist. quote: Sasun, we're in full sync and I guess we followed a similar path for I also used to consider myself as an atheist. The few hardcore atheists who take their belief to its consequences end up as nihilists. Axel, in my case, certain events lead me to believe in God. Then I came accross to some writings that threw light on many things that I didn't realize before. As a result, I never doubt about God. It was a whole new world to me which changed my life and understanding of life completely. There is so much beauty, wisdom, joy and hope in the new world that it is beyond imagination. The physical world is only a part of reality. That's what I believe I have come to realize that belief cannot be tought, but only inspired. This is what many religious teachers say. It is not a coincidence that there are so many religions and directions around the world. Different people have different ways of inspiring and being inspired, hence such a variaty. I am nominally a Christian but I also believe in other religions. Church and the Bible outside of Gospels rarely inspire me. But I once had such a big inspiration from an abandoned, half-ruined medieval Armenian church. Back then I was an atheist. It was early morning. I spent half an hour in this church checking out what is inside, just out of curiousity. There was nobody with me in the church. I was trying to imagine how priests lived centuries back. One thought lead to another, I don't know what happened but when I came out I had a very strange feeling of inspiration, joy and sadness at the same time, lost and confused. I am still not sure what happened, maybe one day I will understand The funny thing is that after that I continued to indentify myself as atheist, but I was not honest to myself. I am curious, did you guys have strange experiences? How did you become a believer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
564312 Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 564312, you forgot to mention "The Possessed" which is quite relevant in the context of this discussion esp. the character of Stavroguine which, I am now convinced, is not just the fruit of the imagination of an epileptic author for I have encountered such people that have a clear conscience of what good and evil are and yet deliberately choose evil. There is a religious dimension to evil in this world, which is obvious in bolshevism but also in contemporary ideologies, although some do not perceive it. As for the three age metaphor I used in my original post, it is somehow exposed in "A raw youth" if I recall and incarnated by the three Karamazov brothers (Mitia, Ivan and Aliosha).[/QB]yess "The Possessed Another dostoyevski masterpiece. Russia has produced many great literary geniuses; I specially admire Dostoyevski and Gogol. Every sentence has depth yet it is written with such simplicity. "Love all God's creation, the whole and every grain of sand of it. Love every leaf, every ray of God's light. Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love." - Father Zosima of Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov “I believe that there is nothing lovelier, deeper, more sympathetic, more rational, more manly and more perfect than the Savior;...If anyone could prove to me that Christ is outside the truth, and if the truth really did exclude Christ, I should prefer to stay with Christ and not the truth.” But it has to be held responsible because humans form the Church. Our Church architecture, our Frescos, The Chants, Armenian manuscripts, Our Khatchkars this we have to deem high in our cultural heritage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 quote: If anyone could prove to me that Christ is outside the truth, and if the truth really did exclude Christ, I should prefer to stay with Christ and not the truth This is so fascinating and inspiring !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Sasun: quote: If anyone could prove to me that Christ is outside the truth, and if the truth really did exclude Christ, I should prefer to stay with Christ and not the truth This is so fascinating and inspiring !!!Yes, but IF that should happen, I should prefer to refer to him as the dumb ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 Originally posted by Sasun:[QB] If anyone could prove to me that Christ is outside the truth, and if the truth really did exclude Christ, I should prefer to stay with Christ and not the truth I can see where you'd like to go with this one...but the problem here is: Christ(embodiment of God) IS the TRUTH! There is no other truth...only illusion....I didn't want to get into this but here it goes: you see, if humans did not have an ego(claiming to be superior, better, more worthy than others) then evil would be eradicated! and we would be able to clearly see that all that is good and righteous not only comes from God, but IS God! WE ARE GOD! We are all a little piece of the vast consciousness that is, has been, and always will be...(think of it like this: on a physical level you ARE your parent, aren't you? (50:50) mother & father...now, why is it so strange to conceive and understand that the reason we can all love one another, have empathy, cry for someone else's misery and tragedy...is because we are related to them...maybe not physically...but spiritually...we are all droplets from the SAME big ocean...and chaos and pain arise when some think they're better, or that they're isolated from the rest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 I am absolutely joyous and excited that you shared that with us! thanks ~~~I would call your experience a spiritual awakening, it's the blooming of the soul...and it's no coincidence that it happened to you at that time, and that place...you needed to feel connected again to the universe, to life, to that from which you came...and once you crack open the doors to the possibility of believing in something so loving and graceful...beyond any earthly love and grace...then you cannot help but feel the light, the love,of God... I truely believe that the most beautiful thing in this world is an awakened soul that can live in peace and harmony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 That was meant for Sasun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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