Armenian Genocide in the academy

[Munzur]

Dear people,

 

For quite some time I've been privately studying the Armenian Genocide and the primary and secondary sources coherent to it. Being a Sociology-student at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands (not far from Assen by the way), I have finally decided to specialize in Genocide Studies, most specifically the phenomenon of Genocide and Ethnocide in "East Anatolia". It is in this context that in the current academic year, I thought of the idea of organizing a presentation-type of panel-discussion of the Armenian Genocide at the faculty of Sociology.

 

This presentation will be in Dutch, comprised of 3 to 4 participants (including me), who will all individually expound on a specific aspect of the Genocide. Altogether, the presentation has to provide a complete image of the Genocide tragedy. It is also possible to tackle the issue from a comparative point of view. If this plan is received well, we won't have much trouble organizing such an event on faculty ground, which will probably enable us to use audio-visual material as well. I must add that it will exclusively be an initiative of experts in this field, whether students, Bachelors, Masters, PhD's, etc.

 

The problematic situation concerning the genocide commemorations in Assen has shown that the Armenian Genocide needs academic attention in the Netherlands. Thus far, as far as scholars are concerned, only Dr. Ton Zwaan (University of Amsterdam), Prof. Dr. Johan van der Dennen (University of Groningen), Prof. Dr. Erik Jan Zürcher (University of Leiden), and a few other Dutch academics have more or less paid attention to the genocide. I plead this to be carried out academically for the simple fact that university activities are more resistant (if not immune) to provocation and disturbance. Turkish-nationalist associations won't be able to protest against sociological inquiry and historical documentation in the academy. It will also be informative for students and academics in general if we do it this way, with backing from the faculty staff.

 

If there's zest for my initiative, I am open for suggestions and discussion. Experts of the Armenian Genocide in Holland can mail me if they're interested.

 

Munzur

[THOTH]

Munzur - most excellent to hear of your effort. Before any suggestions perhaps you should enlighten us as to your current degree of knowledge concerning the Armenian Genocide (I assume you are not refeering to some "so-called" Turkish Genocide). Please enlighten us to your thinking - why do you care, how much do you know (or think that you know) and what do you actually hope to accomplish.

 

I would concern yourself with histoy of the Ottoman Empire - particualrly concerning the minorites and the problems of the end of Empire - include as well attitudes of Turks/Muslims towards non-Muslim minorites and laws & customs etc. Then you should look at the Abdul Hamid period & masacres, rise of CUP (ideology and practical considerations), rise of nationalism in general (in the region), Armenian efforts at greater rights within the system and efforts by student groups etc to stir rebellion (and how very limited this effort actually was...), then you must consider CUP interal politics and revolutionary political swings, military and economic circumstances in the Empire, influx of refugees, build up of resentment/scapegoating of Armenians - and then of course the planning, evolution, circumstances and methods of carrying out the genocide - who was involved, why, how and what were the gains (by the Turks - economic-political etc), then the attempts at cover up, the eyewitnesses of all types and documentation, the Post war military tribunals then the rise of Attaturk (and completing the job - with the Armenians and other Christian minorites...check out the last days of Smyrna for instance). And of course the evolution of denial - dfrom this period to the present - and a study of collective Turkish amnesia.

 

That should keep you busy for a while (for perhaps a lifetime). I could perhaps erecommend a reading list to get you started - though these already exist on different Genocide web sites I think.

 

Good luck - keep us posted.

[bellthecat]

Perhaps not. A few years ago I met with a Dutch professor and Genocide denier in Van. He was there at the invitation of the Turkish government. I got the impression from him that his views were the norm amongst Dutch academics.

 

Can't remember his name, unfortunately. His field was something to do with Art history, with a Turkish connection obviously. He had a German wife (whose family originally came from Czechoslovakia, she thought Hitler's annexation of that country was a very good thing and that the post ww2 expulsion of Germans living there to be far worse and far more unjustified that anything that happened to Armenians in 1915!)

[Munzur]

Dear Thoth,

 

Before writing on the genocide, I understand I have to introduce myself. I’m a 20-year old native from Dersim, but I have been living in Europe for 19 years. For those of you who are not acquainted with my place of birth: Dersim is the name of both the mountainous region between Erzincan and Elazığ (Elaziz), and the unique people that inhabit the region. The natives predominantly speak Zaza and adhere to the syncretistic “Alewi” religion; the people call themselves Dêsımız and consider Dersim an autonomous ethnical-religious entity – not Kurdish and certainly not Turkish. I was brought up with this culture and collective memory.

 

It is against this background that I first questioned the history, politics and sociology of my own people. Just when I was acquiring knowledge I found out that I have an Armenian grandmother on my father’s side of the family and an Armenian grandfather on my mother’s side. To make a long story short: I searched, found and read lots of academic literature, learned about the genocide, tumbled into the rabbit hole deeper and deeper, and here I am. What struck me most was the trivial indifference of the academy and the ignorance of post-industrial information societies in general, a fact which (in my opinion) led to the genocide almost exclusively being an important topic in Armenian diaspora communities, e.g. in Holland. I guess I was one of the very few non-Armenians that attended the commemorations in Assen in 2001 and 2002, and I must admit: I was looked upon with suspicion (upon recognizing that I didn't speak Armenian, two men even frisked me). I understand how and why the topic became monopolized in Armenian communities but the genocide was a major violation of human rights and it was carried out in East Anatolia, so it concerns me as a bystander (and every other East Anatolian native) but it also concerns me personally as a victim, having Armenian grandparents. This is why I care.

 

About my accumulated expertise on the genocide, I can’t totally explain how much I know since “much” and “little” is always relatively viewed, but I could sketch my use of sources if you’d like. Since I’m able to read 7 languages (Dutch, German, English, French, Turkish, Ottoman and Zaza), I can predicate my genocide-studies upon to the primary and secondary sources written in these languages, with the exception of Zaza of course – which is, with Turkish and Kurmancî, relevant for gathering “tertiary sources”: Oral History, something that still hasn’t been carried out systematically but can contain very valuable material. I only wish I could read Armenian and Russian too, but fortunately there are translations and Armenophone friends that can translate.

 

It’s evident that in order to become versed in the in-depth studying of the perpetrator side, one must read Turkish and Ottoman: almost all of the memoires of the Ittihadists are written in either modern Turkish or Ottoman. The same thing goes for the relevant Takvim-i Vekayi issues, the most crucial body of evidence in the entire study of the Armenian Genocide. The German language is equally important since imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary were the allies of Turkey during the war. From Lepsius to Pomiankowski and Wangenheim to Scheubner-Richter, the Germans are known for their accurate and extensive archival material. The importance of French and English is, of course, obvious.

 

Another point is the bigger picture: I travel to East Anatolia every summer to visit my relatives and I strongly believe that viewed from inside the region, the Armenian Genocide is a determinating event in the minds of people still living there. I traveled extensively and carried out Oral History research by interviewing elderly Kurds, Turks, Alevis, Arabs, Dersim natives, Laz, Circassians, etc. The outcomes of this research is very relevant for an understanding of the genocide. For instance, one starts to understand the various reasons why Kurds participated in the massacring, or the policy of “colonial rule” (müstemleke-i tarz) towards East Anatolia and its inhabitants, most specifically in the period 1923-1950. This puts the genocide in a whole new perspective.

 

I hope this illuminates my motives. My ultimate purpose is for the genocide to become generally recognized as the precursor of the Holocaust, so you probably have a point when you say this will keep me busy for a lifetime

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read my comments.

 

Munzur

 

P.S.: bellthecat: Do you consider it fair to get the impression from 1 Dutch Art History specialist that his denialist views are the norm amongst ALL Dutch academics? On the other hand, it’s a sign for us only to start working harder on the general recognition of the genocide here in the Netherlands. I find it deplorable that a lot of people can be bought but of course, it is horrible that he barters away his academic integrity for anything else.

[THOTH]

Munzur - most excellent. What a great story - and you seem very well equipped for this task. I don't know what I might do to furthur assist you - but I am very interested in how this project of yours progresses and the results you achieve. I ask that you post as much as possible here to inform/involve us and hopefully we here can provide some useful input.

[Munzur]

Thanks for the enthusiasm and the interest! My first objective is to bring (Dutch-speaking) college students of the Armenian Genocide from the Netherlands and Belgium together. This way it'll be possible to organize a panel in the manner I mentioned before. I wonder if there are such people on this forum, so hereby I call upon interested students. It'd be nice and fruitful to come together and see if, and when we can prepare such a panel.

 

Regards,

 

Munzur

[vava]

Dear Munzur,

 

I applaud your initiative, and I wish you the best of luck in this rather ambitious project. Hopefully, your efforts will not only enlighten Dutch academics, but will have a broader impact upon academics as well as non-academics outside the Netherlands. Take care & good luck.

[Sip]

The only meaningful input I may have on this is the issue of anonymity. I can imagine there being a lot of fear in speaking out, which I have to say is completely understandable, especially in those parts of the world.

 

So any such panel would probably benefit if it could guarantee anonymity or at least some level of privacy (for the participants if they so wish).

 

How? Hellooooo internet! Forums such as this are very easy to set up, can be made private, and the participants have the option of having some degree of anonymity (although never 100%). Any decent university I am sure could easily find the resources for it too.

[Guest Fadi]

To Munzur

 

You said you can read Zaza...

 

This impressed me more, and I believe that you are a kurd then, if my question is not too much personal.

 

Second, I did not knew there was documentations writen in the Zaza dialect, I am more interested to this, since I myself research on this specific subject, and I would be glad if you could provide me some references from Zaza.

 

There is another work that has been writen with Zaza dialect, published in Turkey, about the Armeno-Kurish relations, I was not able to have a copy of this work myself, but was searching someone that could have a copy of it, or even better someone that could actualy translat it.

 

PM me if you want about Zaza sources, if you know some.

 

Regards

[bellthecat]

Munzur, what I said was that HE, the Dutch professor, was saying TO ME that denying the Armenian Genocide was the accepted norm in Dutch academia. It certainly seemed to be the accepted norm in the department he came from.

 

Please give us examples of some of the reasons why the Kurds actively participated in the genocide.

 

From most eye witness accounts the main reason given seems to be that they simply liked killing, and 1915 gave them the opportunity to behave like a fox in a hen house. Did they understand the bigger picture?

[bellthecat]

He said that he was Dersimli.

[Guest Fadi]

Yes ! I know, I did not pied much attention, so I have not remarked that.

[bellthecat]

Which probably suggests he does not consider himself to be ethnically Kurdish, (or at least not your common or garden variety of Kurd!)

[Munzur]

bellthecat: Provide me the name of the academic in question, perhaps we can invite him to the presentation. He’s not a specialist and can claim anything he wants; all of the sociologists, historians and interested academics I discussed the topic with in The Netherlands and Belgium acknowledge the historicity of the genocide. One day, denying the Armenian Genocide will be as much a moral crime as denying the Holocaust – that day we will sue him, how about that?

 

As far as the reasons why ‘the Kurds’ actively participated in the genocide, it’ll be a long story to invoke all elements but there are 4 main reasons:

 

1. Economic: from the memoires and family sagas of survivors the theme of robbery keeps on repeating itself. Money, gold, clothes, cattle, anything valuable... An important motive for the crimes committed was to acquire wealth from the relatively affluent Armenians, e.g. see: Kerop Bedoukian, The Urchin (London, 1978), pp.29-32; Donald E. Miller & Lorna Touryan-Miller, Survivors; An Oral History of the Armenian Genocide (Los Angeles & Berkeley, 1993), pp.155-192; Florence M. Soghoian, Portrait of a Survivor (Hanover, MA, 1997), pp.19-34. As a matter of fact, even now, 90 % of all rich Kurdish families have inherited their possessions from forays, committed by their grandfathers; Hikmet Kıvılcımlı, İhtiyat Kuvvet: Milliyet (Şark) (İstanbul, 1979), p.20.

 

2. Religious: as far as the Sunni (Şafî Muslim) Kurds are concerned, a single fetva could spark off a horrible massacre. It’s also commonly known that lots of Şeyhs didn’t in the least respect the religious beliefs of the Armenian population, such as the Şeyh from Zîlan (Ararat region) who was known for his bloodlust, or Sağırzade, the müftü of Malatya, who directed the strangulation of the Armenian Catholic Primate of Malatya. A lot of these Islamic clergymen urged the Kurds that killing a number of Christians would lead to a secured place in heaven; see e.g. Henry Morgenthau, Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story (Ann Arbor, MA, 2000), pp.209-210; Johannes Lepsius, Deutschland und Armenien (Potsdam, 1919), p.LXV.

 

3. Feodal: remember that Kurdish society is (still) very feodally organized. Obedience to the ağa, mir, bey or şıx was unquestioned. In this way, if a single ağa had a grudge against Armenians, he could quickly mobilize up to thousands of armed men that he could send on any mission at any time. It is precisely this societal structure that lead to the consistency that certain areas were totally cleansed of Armenians and certain areas were not. Naci Kutlay, İttihat ve Terakki ve Kürtler (Ankara, 1992), pp.259-276.

 

4. Sexual: there are endless accounts of the abduction and rape of Armenian (and Syriac-Aramean) women by Kurdish men. I don’t interpret this as a concomitant effect but as a primary motive of the Kurdish perpetrators. See: Ara Sarafian, “The Absorption of Armenian Women and Children into Muslim Households as a Structural Component of the Armenian Genocide”, in: Omer Bartov & Phyllis Mack (eds.), In God’s Name; Genocide and Religion in the Twentieth Century (New York & Oxford, 2001), pp.209-221.

 

Next year I’m going to write a voluminous essay on this topic. Perhaps it can be translated and I could send it to you if you’re interested.

 

To claim that the sole reason for ‘the Kurds’ (which ones, perpetrator, victim or bystander? Zaza, Kızılbaş, Yezidi? Koçer, Aşiret, Mîrinan?) was the intrinsic value of murder would be short-circuiting a complex sociological discussion of interethnic and intertribal power structures. On the other hand, you have a point when you claim that sadism could be a fluctuating but always present factor: we can think of Mırza Bey, the Kemah defile brigand chief, who kept on boasting of having killed 70,000 Erzurum province Armenians passing through the Kemah defile, or brigand chief Amero, who carried out the mutilation and murder of 636 Armenian notables of Diyarbekir, on orders of governor Dr. Mehmet Reşit, or the Bedirxan family, who basically wiped out the entire Aramean race. The fact that torture was involved denotes murderous sadism.

 

Anyway, in order for an understanding of Kurdish complicity in the Genocide, I believe all parties should try to evade narrow-mindedness and ethnocentrism. Only this way we can understand and hopefully, prevent future genocides.

 

Munzur

[Munzur]

Sorry, I forgot to answer the last question. No, they did not understand the bigger picture and unfortunately, a lot of them still don't, judging from my interviews with elderly Kurds.

 

Munzur

[nairi]

I just hope you don't take yourself too seriously, Munzur.

[bellthecat]

Sorry Munzur, I can't remember his name. I should have written it down at the time. But there cannot be many Dutch professors of Art history (or a similar dicipline), in their 50s, with a German wife whose family came from Sudetenland.

 

My statement that the Kurds participated in the genocide simply because they liked killing was, I admit, crudely put. However, I do believe there is essential truth in my statement.

 

The 4 reasons you gave for Kurds participating in the Genocide could also be used to explain Kurdish activity during the 100 years before 1915. All commentators on the Kurdish tribes living in eastern Turkey agree that Kurds approved of participating in robbery, approved of killing Christians, approved of their tribal society, and approved of abductions and rapes of Christians.

 

For "approved of" I could just as well have said "liked", so, really, the reasons you gave actually admit the truth of my statement.

 

I wouldn't have used the word sadism, that implies the abnormal behaviour of a few individuals and not an act of normal behavior. I see Kurdish participation in the Armenian Genocide to have be mainly a case of them behaving in a normal way, but on a far greater scale than normal circumstances would allow. The war and the Turkish state set aside all the normal restraints and allowed the Kurdish population to behave "like a fox in a hen house".

 

However, I think many Kurdish leaders did see the bigger picture, and knew that they were participating in a process to eliminate all Armenians. Some Kurdish leaders had, in the years before 1915, threatened genocide on eastern Turkey's Armenian population if reforms were to lead to those Armenians becoming more economically or politically powerful than the Kurds. And the Kurds already had committed genocide in the 1840s when they had massacred several hundred thousand Nestorian Christians in Hakkari and what is now northern Iraq.

 

But, reading all your citations was rather disapointing. Don't you think you are going down roads already well trodden?

 

Given your access to the population, I'd much rather hear of what those elderly Kurds said. I want to know what their reminicences were, not the formulaic writings of the growing Armenian Genocide industry.

 

Actually, there is vital work that should be done towards recording the connections between humans and landscape in Eastern Turkey. The removal of all the Armenian population destroyed 2500 or more years of human interaction with that landscape, and all the stories and traditions arising from that interaction. For example, it is now not even known for certain where the cave in which Gregory of Narek composed his Lamentations is located.

 

Some of those stories and traditions must still survive amongst the Kurdish population, but, given the rush towards modernity, the massive upheavals, and the forced evacuations from villages in the 1990s, they won't survive much longer.

[Munzur]

bellthecat: I agree with your point that the 4 reasons I mentioned do not totally exclude Kurdish attitudes towards Christians in the decades before 1915. However, this does prove that there was a clear pattern of continuity in this historic perspective. In other words, the final genocidal stroke was not something new and could’ve actually been foreseen. This way, this simmering but strong anti-Christian attitude resembles the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe, culminating in Holocaust. Garo Sasuni emphasizes this when he writes that every Armenian effort to form a joint and egalitarian frame of opposition was vain effort because the Kurds were unable to “finally learn a lesson from the past” and “stop seeing the Armenians as their subjects”; Garo Sasuni, Kurt azgayin sharzhumnere ev hay-krdakan haraberutyunnere (Beirut, 1969), p.14 (Turkish translation: Kürt Ulusal Hareketleri ve 15.Yy’dan Günümüze Ermeni-Kürt İlişkileri (İstanbul, 1992), p.12).

 

I do not want to discuss “norms”, but the “normal”, or ordinary way that perpetrator Kurds behaved toward Armenians had been “pervasive oppression”, “whimsical taxes” and “enslavement” for years, these being the words of Christapor Michaelian; quoted in: Vahakn N. Dadrian, Warrant for Genocide; The Key Elements of the Turko-Armenian Conflict (London, 1998), p.33. It was not rational, in the sociological meaning of the word, for the Kurdish derebeyi’s to destroy the Armenians, since they profited from Armenian labour. You may have a crucial point here when you point at this fact: why destroy an Armenian population if you can opt for a parasitic strategy, which had worked for years? Again, the analogy with the Holocaust is cogent, since the extermination of the Jews wasn’t Zweckrational either; Zygmunt Bauman, Modernity and the Holocaust (Cambridge, 1989), pp.135-148.

 

I couldn’t have formulated this better myself. I think Henry Lynch articulated this powerfully by stating that this tribal hegemony of the Kurds would prove “disastrous” for the Armenians; Henry F.B. Lynch, Armenia; Travels and Studies (Beirut, 1965), vol.II, p.423. I think this argument is plausible enough: history has proven that a disturbance of balances of power irrevocably leads to mortal violence.

 

I don’t understand this, what exactly do you mean by this?

 

I’m in the process of compiling Oral History documentation. I’ve interviewed lots of elderly Kurds and Dersimli’s and am able to copy relevant parts of private tapes of Kurdish families and researchers. I’ve agreed with the Gomidas Institute on publishing the results when I feel that I’ve gathered enough raw material for a book.

 

You are also right with respect to your statement that exterminated East Anatolian Armenian culture lives on in contemporary Kurdish and Kizilbash (Alewi) culture. As a matter of fact, I hold that there is considerable proof that all settled populations in different regions of East Anatolia show little difference in everyday life practices. I experienced this myself when I read in the many memoires of Armenians the descriptions of cuisine, customs, mythology, music, clothing and in the Alewi case, even religion, in “the Old Country”. I especially find the writings of Migirdich Margosyan for the Diyarbekir case very instructive.

 

In conclusion I would like to express that we need to approach the ethnic term Kurd with care. ‘Kurdish’ society is far from homogenous, and, as a matter of fact, at the edges of the spectrum, ethnic identity blurs into something totally estranged from ‘mainstream Kurdish’ identity. Neither the Dersim, nor the ‘Alewi Kurds’ (whether Zaza or Kurmanc), or Yezidis, see themselves as nominally Kurdish; even if they are, their religion is a defining factor in dealing with their Muslim, Yezidi, Alevi or Christian neighbours. To quote Tessa Hofmann and Gerayer Koutcharian:

 

- Tessa Hofmann & Gerayer Koutcharian, “The History of Armenian-Kurdish Relations in the Ottoman Empire”, Armenian Review, vol.39, no.4-156 (1986), pp.6-7.

 

Conclusion: before speaking on ‘Kurds’, we need to define explicitly and specifically which ‘Kurds’ we are talking about.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read

 

Regards,

 

Munzur

 

P.S.: nairi, what do you mean by “I just hope you don't take yourself too seriously”? If it’s about Zürcher, the man can at times be a naive Orientalist but he is by no means a denier, apologist or falsifier. He acknowledges the reality of genocide both in his book Een Geschiedenis van het Moderne Turkije (English: Turkey; A Modern History; Turkish: Modernleşen Türkiye’nin Tarihi) as in a recent article: “Young Turks, Ottoman Muslims and Turkish Nationalist Identity Politics, 1908-1938” in: Kemal Karpat (ed.), Ottoman Past and Today’s Turkey (Leiden: Brill, 2000), pp.150-179; also from my private conversations with him, I can only conclude that he fully acknowledges the historicity of the Genocide.

[nairi]

In that case, good luck.

 

Nairi

[Munzur]

Thank you very much

 

Wat is het weer heerlijk om met positieve mensen te converseren...

 

Munzur

[Munzur]

De Volkskrant, May 9th, 2000, p.7:

 

'Het was een geweldige tragedie'

 

Van onze verslaggever Wio Joustra

 

ASSEN

 

Turkoloog Zürcher vindt dat Turken in Armeens gedenkteken moeten berusten.

 

'Los van de schuldvraag vind ik dat de Armeense gemeenschap de ruimte moet hebben om haar doden te herdenken. Want we hebben het hier wel over een geweldige tragedie in de geschiedenis.'

 

De Leidse hoogleraar Turkse taal en cultuur E.J. Zürcher vindt dat de Turken in een Armeens monument in Assen zouden moeten berusten. Zoals ook is gebeurd in Duitsland, Frankrijk en de Verenigde Staten.

 

De kwestie speelt voor het eerst in Nederland en Zürcher geeft toe dat die bijzonder gevoelig ligt bij de Turkse gemeenschap.

 

Voor de oorzaak van het conflict moet worden teruggegaan naar de Eerste Wereldoorlog, naar 1915.

 

Zürcher: 'Turkije nam daaraan deel aan de kant van Duitsland en een van zijn vijanden was Rusland dat begon op te dringen in Oost-Turkije. Sommige nationalistische groepen in Armenië zagen in de Russische opmars de gelegenheid hun verlangen naar een eigen staat te verwezenlijken.'

 

Uit angst daarvoor deporteerden de Turkse moslims vervolgens alle in het land wonende Armeense christenen, anderhalf tot twee miljoen in totaal, naar concentratiekampen langs de Eufraat in de Syrische woestijn.

 

'Deze enorme volksverhuizing werd op een vaak barbaarse manier aangepakt', aldus de Leidse Turkoloog.

 

'Het officiële leger hield zich er buiten, maar heel veel mannen werden omgebracht door speciale moordcommando's. De Armeniërs zeggen anderhalf miljoen, maar dat is onmogelijk. De Turken zeggen tweehonderdduizend, maar dat is veel te laag. De waarheid ligt ergens in het midden. Het conflict is te vergelijken met dat tussen Servië en Bosnië.'

 

In wezen gaat het volgens Zürcher nog altijd om drie geschilpunten. 'In de eerste plaats om het aantal slachtoffers. Betrouwbare schattingen gaan uit van 700 tot 800 duizend aan Armeense kant.'

 

In de tweede plaats gaat het, vindt Zürcher, om de vraag of het een 'bedrijfsongeval' was. Een inter-etnisch conflict zoals de Turken beweren of om volkenmoord zoals de Armenen zeggen.

 

'De Turken hebben altijd ontkend dat het een doelgerichte politiek was de Armeniërs uit te roeien. Maar ooggetuigen spraken in die tijd van orders uit Istanboel die daar wel op duidden', vertelt Zürcher.

 

'Het derde geschilpunt is of de Turkse republiek, die pas in 1923 is ontstaan, zich voor de etnische schoonmaak van het Osmaanse Rijk verantwoordelijk moet voelen. Nee, zeggen de hedendaagse Turken. Maar dat zou hetzelfde zijn als Duitsland zou ontkennen iets te maken te hebben met de daden van het Duitse Rijk.'

 

-----------

 

I rest my case.

[Sip]

The completely unofficial translation for the "dutch"-challenged members (such as myself)... probably not much better than the original dutch version:

 

 

[ October 17, 2002, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]