MosJan Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 James Russell VS. Vardananq James Russell Professor James Russell of Harvard University offers courses in Classical and Modern Armenian language, on the Armenian Epic of Sasun, on the writings of the mystic poet St. Gregory of Narek, and on the folk beliefs and practices of the Armenian people. He has also taught two Freshman Seminars, "Greece and the East" and "Linguistics and Racism," a House Seminar ("Four Alienated Visionary Writers of Cambridge: T.S. Eliot, Delmore Schwartz, Vladimir Nabokov, and William S. Burroughs"), and an Introduction to the Zoroastrian Religion, as well as offering sophomore and junior tutorials on mystical texts. Before coming to Harvard in 1993, he was Lady Davis Fellow and Visting Associate Professor of Armenian and Ancient Iranian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel. Books: Zoroastrianism in Armenia , Yovhannes T'lkuranc'i and the Mediaeval Armenian Lyric Tradition . A few recent articles: "Problematic Snake Children of Armenia", "On Mysticism and Esotericism amongst the Zoroastrians", "The Mother of All Heresies: A Late Mediaeval Armenian Text on the Yushkaparik", "The Armenian Shrines of the Black Youth", "Polyphemos Armenios", "An Epic for the Borderlands... the Mythologem of Alcestis in Armenia", "Ezekiel and Iran", and "Scythians and Avesta in an Armenian Vernacular Paternoster." He was Government Fellowship Lecturer at the Cama Institute in Bombay, India, and has been a frequent guest of the Armenian Academy of Sciences. He enjoys swimming and lives in Cambridge with his cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aratta-Kingdom Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 THANK YOU---THANK YOU MOSJAN FOR THE VIDEO I was looking for the video for a long time. I lost Vardan's number in Yerevan, and I couldn't find the video anywhere else. This Russell creature is the GODFATHER of all the revisionists who try to rewrite the Armenian history. Ronald Suni, Nina Garsoian, Richard Hovhannisian, they all are Russells puppets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 MosJan, shnorhakal es mekits @nker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 I couldn't finish watching this. Got to part 4 and had to turn it off. I don't know Russell's position, but what I got from him was that instead of simply believing in ONE story (as opposed to the Armenian "interviewer" who doesn't even let Russell speak most of the time, but instead just tries to drive his own point home), he questions all stories. I don't see anything wrong in this. Why do Armenians have this fixed conception of Armenian history and are so afraid to question it or move away from it? So what if Armenians are not native to Anatolia? Does that mean we should be ashamed and hide? So what if white people didn't originate in the Armenian Highland? Why do we want them to have originated in Armenia so badly? Does that give us a reason to be proud somehow? I do wish we weren't so anal about ourselves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 what is a "debate" between historians or a quchi bazar between thugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aratta-Kingdom Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Nairi: I couldn't finish watching this. Got to part 4 and had to turn it off. You seen enough to form a complet opinion about the conversation. Nairi: I don't know Russell's position, but what I got from him was that instead of simply believing in ONE story You seen 4 videos and you still don't know about Russell's position? This isn't about "believing in ONE story". It's about revisionism. It's about distorting the facts. Nairi: (as opposed to the Armenian "interviewer" who doesn't even let Russell speak most of the time, but instead just tries to drive his own point home), To the point when Russell would talk history instead of raising provocative questions. Nairi: he questions all stories. I don't see anything wrong in this. If I call you Tara, Ruth, or Jamila, instead of Nairi, would that be wrong? Nairi: Why do Armenians have this fixed conception of Armenian history and are so afraid to question it or move away from it? To question it, or to move away from it? What exactly you have in mind? Nairi:So what if Armenians are not native to Anatolia? So you do share Russell's point? Not only that, you also call Armenian Highland "Anatolia". That's something the revisionists do. Vardan raised that question with Russell when he said revisionism is the first step of genocide. At any coast you drive people away from their roots, question their identity, then you kill them. Nairi: Does that mean we should be ashamed and hide? We should be ashamed for not knowing our history and for letting the revisionists to rewrite the history. How would you feel if someone would come to your house, kills most of the family members, takes away all documents proving that you are the owner of that house? Nairi:So what if white people didn't originate in the Armenian Highland? Why do we want them to have originated in Armenia so badly? Does that give us a reason to be proud somehow? No if you ask a zombie. Nairi: I do wish we weren't so anal about ourselves! Just like any person in any part of the world, Armenians have a right to be proud of who they are, what they have occomplished, and where they come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aratta-Kingdom Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Nairi:So what if white people didn't originate in the Armenian Highland? Why do we want them to have originated in Armenia so badly? Does that give us a reason to be proud somehow? No if you ask a zombie. They are half dead people with no memory of the past and no care for the future. They eat, drink, and that's all there is for them. Learning the history, knowing the truth, helps to create a base to form a civilized society. One will never learn to appreciate the true achievements of the man kind, unless spends time learning history. 1. Why you think people spend billions of $$$ to create insitutions where millions of others would go to study? 2. Why you think people spend countless hours studying history? 3. Why you think Russell and the other revisionists are paid to do the job they do? 4. Why you think it is OK for the Jews to make up a story and create a fictitous character, such as Moses,(even Russell admits in the VIDEO that Moses is a fake character), but not OK for the Armenians to learn about their national identity? 5. Dare to go France and speak english. They'll cut you in pieces. Why is it Ok for the French to think about superiority of their language and culture, but not OK for the Armenians to know the truth about their past and be proud of it? 6. Why you think we have a history section at HyeForum? 7. If you think none of this is important, why you wast your time reading these posts? Edited February 20, 2009 by Aratta-Kingdom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Holding the position that an ethnic group is a migrant element in a given region legitimizes the occupation of that territory as mere control of neutral land. Advocating such a view undermines and eventually ignores the role and impact of the group on the formation and development of the cultural identity associated with the given geographic area. This, if anything, is the definition of tinkering with history. Keeping that in mind, we may now try to define history as the attempt to arrive at the closest proximity of an event's description to the truth through objective analysis of all available sources and records, bypassing the unlikely and advancing the probable. And I will repeat: ALL available sources and records. When in comes to Armenology and Armenian history, this is certainly not the case. If anyone is wondering, I am talking about the earliest mentions of the Armenian Highland in Mesopotamian myth and literature. There seems to be an awful lot of scholastic selection in understanding the origin and identity of Armenians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aratta-Kingdom Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 since i'm gonna be away for couple of months, in case someone wants to learn more about the topic, it's better if link the 'Falsifiers Of The Armenian History', to this thread. http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19664 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Nairi: I couldn't finish watching this. Got to part 4 and had to turn it off. You seen enough to form a complet opinion about the conversation. I actually sat through the rest after posting. My opinion hasn't changed. I still don't really know Russell's position because your man, the interviewer, didn't let the Russell talk! We really need to learn to interview people, which basically implies asking a question and letting the askee respond in his own time! Nairi: I don't know Russell's position, but what I got from him was that instead of simply believing in ONE story You seen 4 videos and you still don't know about Russell's position? This isn't about "believing in ONE story". It's about revisionism. It's about distorting the facts. Revisionism is an inherent part of historical studies. As new facts emerge, new philosophies, and new attitudes toward the subject, history will be revised time and again. What you're complaining about is negationism, which is the deliberate denial of facts. In the case of Armenian ancient history, there are no concrete facts-- it's all just theory, some of it more plausible than others, granted, but theory nonetheless--so it's nonsense to talk about negationism. Nairi: he questions all stories. I don't see anything wrong in this. If I call you Tara, Ruth, or Jamila, instead of Nairi, would that be wrong? If you question my real name, I see nothing wrong with that. Even if I show you my birth certificate, passport, and every other document available, you still have the right to question their authenticity. Nairi: Why do Armenians have this fixed conception of Armenian history and are so afraid to question it or move away from it? To question it, or to move away from it? What exactly you have in mind? Both. Question it and, if necessary, move away from it. Nairi: I do wish we weren't so anal about ourselves! Just like any person in any part of the world, Armenians have a right to be proud of who they are, what they have occomplished, and where they come from. You seem to imply that in order to be proud we must have accomplished something extraordinary and come from somewhere that others can only be jealous of. God forbid we migrated, or worse, colonized territory. God forbid our greatest accomplishment is herding sheep. God forbid we, as a nation, are hardly 70 years old. No, I see no reason whatsoever why we should be proud of something we did not choose or accomplish. I was born Armenian. I didn't work on it. It's not my brainchild. I have no reason at all to be proud of it. I'm comfortable with it, though. I see no reason to be ashamed of it. And I see no reason to feel inferior or dejected if I find out that what our nationalist historians have attempted to spoonfeed us all these years turns out to be nothing more than hogwash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Bravo Nairi. You couldn't have put it better. These "Falsifiers of Armenian History" videos and other assorted nonsense are just that. Many, including some of our historians seem to believe in some kind of biblical type explanation for the genesis of the Armenian people. No such thing exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 As usual just like any other issue that deals with us Armenians turned political. If we had a country for centuries with defined borders none of this would have been an issue and everything would have stayed in their proper places, be it historical social or culturel, open for debate without getting into histeria. Because of our tragic past, we are suspicious of others and rightfully so, since we've been fooled far too many times! Who's fault is that you might ask? That's another story for another time. We know for fact that there are foreign forces working against us, but then again there are forces working against others too, such is life get used to it and deal with it. As long we are at the mercy of others for our protection, we are doomed to face difficulties. All these problems will disappear when we become our own masters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 from what I understood april 24 is a nonesense, ahhhh... I didn't know this Boghos and Nairi... so you guys mean we should drop the flags, screw being so proud being an Armenian, screw the homeland - let the Furks take over it, screw what we fought for all these years, le'ts move everyone to the US get us a freedom of expression shit on our faces and tell people why bother history is gone look into the future how you people will tell you how you lost your homeland to bunch of sorry ass bastards, then say oh yes we are few but we are Armenians... Ahhh now I get it - so next time there is an APRIL 24 GENOCIDE issue we should all start QUESTIONING IF THAT WAS A REALITY OR NOT, thank you Boghos and Nairi, I understand it all now. Azgi davajanner@ vorteghicen erevum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 As usual just like any other issue that deals with us Armenians turned political. If we had a country for centuries with defined borders none of this would have been an issue and everything would have stayed in their proper places, be it historical social or culturel, open for debate without getting into histeria. Because of our tragic past, we are suspicious of others and rightfully so, since we've been fooled far too many times! Who's fault is that you might ask? That's another story for another time. We know for fact that there are foreign forces working against us, but then again there are forces working against others too, such is life get used to it and deal with it. As long we are at the mercy of others for our protection, we are doomed to face difficulties. All these problems will disappear when we become our own masters. i have no doubt in my mind that such forces exists and that "groups" (whatever that may be) conspire against each other.... (i witness that everyday in the business world)... but what's sad is this kind of "reactionist" historiography (motivated not by the love of history but for the hate of others’ written histories), where the mission of the historian is not to a genuinely objective conclusions or findings, but to come up with a story that will give us the maximum national pride... that kind of historiography has no merit and is an insult to any intelligent armenian... i don’t even want to go further and point out the nonsense where questioning other's ethnic belonging or trying to discredit other’s myths is somehow going to give you (not you personally yervant) more credit or prove your point or help you look good in people’s eyes... debating with another historian is not done by shoving a microphone in the other's face and insulting him, but by publishing a book with proper research and citing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Why is it, that regardless of the actual nature of a discussion, we are always so eager to bring up this 'collective problem' of 'insecurity' and 'inferiority'? Why do we automatically assume that someone who demonstrates curiosity and interest in topics of identity is dissatisfied with their understanding of that identity, of what it means to be an Armenian? Why do we quickly dismiss an investigation of our heritage as a hysteric attempt of empty glorification? What about what is really being presented? What about the significance of such a discussion for an intelligent human? Can we, for once, sit down and discuss anyething without calling each other insecure? It is sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 but what's sad is this kind of "reactionist" historiography (motivated not by the love of history but for the hate of others’ written histories), where the mission of the historian is not to a genuinely objective conclusions or findings, but to come up with a story that will give us the maximum national pride... Agreed. Pride in nationality should not cross the threshold of historical reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 debating with another historian is not done by shoving a microphone in the other's face and insulting him, but by publishing a book with proper research and citing... Precisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) To lava anum, et mikrafon@ voch miain beran@ petqa koxer, ayl miqichel xor@... Darer sharunak amboxch ashxarov mek patmucyunen grum yev irenc patmucyun@ 100% arachen tanum henc es dzevov, heriq chi harcaqnneq? arten vaxtna vor miayn pndeq vochte harcaqnneq... et harcaqnnelov ov inchin hasav? Lav ushadir nayeq Israeln incha anum u miqichel orinak vekaleq... Israel chi harcaqnnum um mot ira patmucyun@ vonca grats, inqn iran@ hratarakuma verchumel saghi jakatnerin jtcnuma u asuma esa vor ka, de togh gnan harcaqnnen... che mer nman, xosqi azatucyunenq stacel chapic aveli, mer patmabannern asume senca duq asumeq bereq urish azgerin harcaqnnenq tenanq vonca... shat jisht asvec miqich verev, aranc sahmanneri yerkri vra el rusnern patmucyun veragrecin, el turqern veragrecin, himael duq dzer dzerneroveq uzum veragreq? pastern dratsen mer arach, ha inch anenq vor internetic miqich hetamnaceq, bayc de grqer kan vekaleq marta mihat dzer tan@ paheq, vor meknel dzer patmucyun@ dzez patmi ira dzevov karogheq et grqerov kokortnern krtseq vochte nsteq lseq te ov incha asum... hech chem morana patmucyans dasatun indz asec soveti pluzumic heto el ARMENIA chka, el harc porc chem tvel ator@ aranc xosqi glxina gnacel, dranic heto lavel janachuma vor ARMENIA ka u kmna! chmoranam asem, es dzer mtatselakerpna vor esorva orov Hayastan@ vochmi past chi karoghanum nerkayacni, vorov HAYERNEN vor kaskatsumen henc irenc vra, heriqa eli duq dzer vra kaskatseq, aseq haaa menqenq vor kanq, menqenq civilizacian sksel, miqich artun egheq, herika es debil systemov sharzhveq, vochmeq "special" chi, bolornel havasaren, karogh mekit bara*****rn aveli barcr lini bayc dimacinic aravel vochinchov chilini, bolorsel havasarachap martenq... vay yes es Amerikyan himar sistemi inchnem asel... Edited February 21, 2009 by Ashot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Ashot jan, menq hayers shat lav gitenq te mer patmutyun@ inchpes en nerkayatsnum ashxarhum miyusner@. Im ararkum@ Vardani interviewi mej e. Aydpes voch voq Vardanin (chem asum @ndhanur hayerin) lurj chi vertsni. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Bravo Nairi. You couldn't have put it better. These "Falsifiers of Armenian History" videos and other assorted nonsense are just that. Many, including some of our historians seem to believe in some kind of biblical type explanation for the genesis of the Armenian people. No such thing exists. Hi Boghos and Nairi I can see the viedeo but somehow I have lost my audio. Could you please tell us what it is that Russell has said that has our horns sharpened again. What is that we don't already know? Observe that we have spoken about the subject here; http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=46...mp;hl=elephants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Hi Boghos and Nairi I can see the viedeo but somehow I have lost my audio. Could you please tell us what it is that Russell has said that has our horns sharpened again. What is that we don't already know? Observe that we have spoken about the subject here; http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=46...mp;hl=elephants You shouldn't ask what Russell said, since he didn't even get to talk! You should ask what Vardan said, since he was the one doing all the talking. And what Vardan basically did was to accuse Russell of negationism and ram nationalist Armenian history down his throat (e.g. Anatolia should be called Armenian Highland, Armenians are native to the Armenian Highland, white people originated in Armenia, Armenian language is the mother of Indo-European; and supposedly more 'jocular' remarks like God speaks Armenian, Jesus was an Armenian, and Africans are a mix of Armenians and blacks). The only thing that I got out of Russell was that he believes Armenians to be native to the Armenian Highland/Anatolia/or whatever the heck you want to call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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