If Education Is Power...

[Z'areh]

then Armenians should empower themselves with education.

 

Here I am not talking about finishing university, that kind of love for education has never been a problem with Armenians. I am talking about the issue of the Armenian genocide. You already know this but please permit me to re-emphasize a point.

 

We come here in this forum on a daily basis to discuss this issue, we do this because we strongly feel that our cause is just and there are forces openly working against us, from governments to two-bit "journalists" to bloggsters.

 

I write this after reading Armat's latest posts and the healthy discussion that ensued as a result, also, after reading foreign (let's just say not so friendly) opinions and stomach churning, malicious, and open anti-Armenian racist attitude that basically says that Armenians deserved what they got.

 

The only way Armenians can counter these forces is to be prepared, therefore, we have to read what those forces base their opinions on, which are: the Shaws, the Lewys, the McCarthys etc..., as revolting as their ideas are we have to know them. I have a library full of books affirming the genocide, none that say otherwise, this is in part due to the fact that I cannot bring myself in spending money to buy those books, I go to the libraries to access their books.

 

The Armenian genocide debate has made some of us into amateur historians and that is a geat achievement, in-spite of exigencies of our personal lives. But just as in astronomy, being an amateur does not mean not having quality or not become an effective contributor to this issue. Just think, amateur astronomers have discovered galaxies and stars that professional astronomers have missed. These amateur astronomers would not have been successful if they didn't know the proper use of a powerful telescope. (sorry about my analogy, I don't want to sound over-the-top but I think the example applies to this issue).

 

I think Domino hit the spot by saying we just "yap" about the truthfulness of the Armenian genocide without really knowing what the other is saying.

 

If education is power, then a well constructed thought can act as a torpedo against the propagandist's ship. This is all what I've been thinking lately.

[DominO123]

It's always easier to yap than study. That's why for most it is enough to do that.

[Armat]

then Armenians should empower themselves with education.

 

Here I am not talking about finishing university, that kind of love for education has never been a problem with Armenians. I am talking about the issue of the Armenian genocide. You already know this but please permit me to re-emphasize a point.

 

We come here in this forum on a daily basis to discuss this issue, we do this because we strongly feel that our cause is just and there are forces openly working against us, from governments to two-bit "journalists" to bloggsters.

 

I write this after reading Armat's latest posts and the healthy discussion that ensued as a result, also, after reading foreign (let's just say not so friendly) opinions and stomach churning, malicious, and open anti-Armenian racist attitude that basically says that Armenians deserved what they got.

 

The only way Armenians can counter these forces is to be prepared, therefore, we have to read what those forces base their opinions on, which are: the Shaws, the Lewys, the McCarthys etc..., as revolting as their ideas are we have to know them. I have a library full of books affirming the genocide, none that say otherwise, this is in part due to the fact that I cannot bring myself in spending money to buy those books, I go to the libraries to access their books.

 

The Armenian genocide debate has made some of us into amateur historians and that is a geat achievement, in-spite of exigencies of our personal lives. But just as in astronomy, being an amateur does not mean not having quality or not become an effective contributor to this issue. Just think, amateur astronomers have discovered galaxies and stars that professional astronomers have missed. These amateur astronomers would not have been successful if they didn't know the proper use of a powerful telescope. (sorry about my analogy, I don't want to sound over-the-top but I think the example applies to this issue).

 

I think Domino hit the spot by saying we just "yap" about the truthfulness of the Armenian genocide without really knowing what the other is saying.

 

If education is power, then a well constructed thought can act as a torpedo against the propagandist's ship. This is all what I've been thinking lately.

Great Post! After reading Dadrian I came away somewhat not fully satisfied. His chapters on Hamidian massacres are totally inadequate to me.The key to AG must be studied from Hamidian perspective because it shows we had more then reasons enough not to trust the Turks and finally saw an opportunity for indipendance.

Armenian "revolt" can be explained by the treatment of Armenians prior to 1915 which again Dadrain does not even try.I learned great deal about AG but still so many gaps remain.I still don't know to what extant Armenians rebelled.If you read McCarthy he paints massive rebellion and I read few personal accounts from Van where rebels were seriously arming the population.Armenian rebel bands may be 10-15 each around 2-3k was still a large force.Have you seen rebel photos?They certainly don't look passive victims.Now question is which truth is the truth. Massive revolt?(Turkish view) or inadequate passive non essentials one (Armenian view) I think it may be somewhat be in between.

I truly feel we need a historian who can represent the era without exagirations.It just makes it easier for Turks to say "Your Armenian Historians are extremely biased)

I'll give a good example.

1895 Oct 1,Istanbul massacre

Dadrian says something like this.Armenians were demonstrating against their ill treatments and shots were fired and massacred begun.

then I read several different versions

Hnchaks demonstrating and wanting to cause riot and 1st shot was by an Armenian who killed a Turkish policeman hence why the Turks got crazy and started massacring the Armenian in the capital.

I tend to believe the "Turkish version" but still does not justify the massacre.What I am trying to say is truth does not justify the Turks but puts weight and credibility of our claims.I am sure a Turk reading the same account from Dadrian won't even read anything else by him.

 

Anyway I agree with your post.

[DominO123]

Armat, rebel bands of 2K-3K are not bands, this number batallions and of 10 to 15 amount to an army. This amount to about the ''official'' Army of the first republic. The figure of 40,000 Armenians outside of the Soviet Union, the ''legion'' was advanced by the Armenian delegation at the Peace Conference to sell Armenia to the allies. It mostly was a recycling of some exgerated figures from the French legion, which date few years after 1915.

 

I've sent you three paper, two from Turkish authors, they are not Akcam, Bertkay nor other known claimed ''pro-Armenian'' scholars. The other is from Davison who the Turks classify as being in their sides. You should read those three papers.

 

And I also strongly advice you two books.

 

The Great Game of Genocide: Imperialism, Nationalism and the Destruction of the Ottoman Armenians by Donald Bloxham

Also Shamefal act by Akçam, there you will find the ''Armenian rebelion'' in question, mind you that this work was first published in Turkey and for Turkish readers, then translated in German and finally Engish, it was written from the perspective of the Ottoman Empire. Zurcher who the Turks classify as their side claimed Akçam work to be probably the closest to the truth.

 

Just an advice for you, don't buy McCarthy when he footnote with neutral references, McCarthy is a fraud, I am not saying it because I disagree wih him, but because he distort sources with as much selectivity that the most claimed nationalist Armenian historian I have read on the subject. I already gave two exemples, when he footnote Ussher and Nogales to support a contention, I check in both works and realise that he distorted and reinterpreted them.

 

On Dadrian, the History of the Armenian Genocide is not an end by itself, I had more pleasure reading his papers than his book, you should read them. On 1894-96, I'll sent you Melson paper on the issue.

 

Armat, if you want to collect and this goes with everyone interested with the subject, old journals of the period, The Muslim World is the best you could come accross. It has published an impressive number of material, from Ussher, Stuermer etc.

 

Great Post! After reading Dadrian I came away somewhat not fully satisfied. His chapters on Hamidian massacres are totally inadequate to me.The key to AG must be studied from Hamidian perspective because it shows we had more then reasons enough not to trust the Turks and finally saw an opportunity for indipendance.

Armenian "revolt" can be explained by the treatment of Armenians prior to 1915 which again Dadrain does not even try.I learned great deal about AG but still so many gaps remain.I still don't know to what extant Armenians rebelled.If you read McCarthy he paints massive rebellion and I read few personal accounts from Van where rebels were seriously arming the population.Armenian rebel bands may be 10-15 each around 2-3k was still a large force.Have you seen rebel photos?They certainly don't look passive victims.Now question is which truth is the truth. Massive revolt?(Turkish view) or inadequate passive non essentials one (Armenian view) I think it may be somewhat be in between.

I truly feel we need a historian who can represent the era without exagirations.It just makes it easier for Turks to say "Your Armenian Historians are extremely biased)

I'll give a good example.

1895 Oct 1,Istanbul massacre

Dadrian says something like this.Armenians were demonstrating against their ill treatments and shots were fired and massacred begun.

then I read several different versions

Hnchaks demonstrating and wanting to cause riot and 1st shot was by an Armenian who killed a Turkish policeman hence why the Turks got crazy and started massacring the Armenian in the capital.

I tend to believe the "Turkish version" but still does not justify the massacre.What I am trying to say is truth does not justify the Turks but puts weight and credibility of our claims.I am sure a Turk reading the same account from Dadrian won't even read anything else by him.

 

Anyway I agree with your post.

 

[Z'areh]

Domino, by the way do you know the famous ex- Quebec youth court judge André Ruffo? some months ago she was a guest of honour on CBC Sunday morning show from Montreal and after discussing her controversial dismissal from the youth court for her decisions (which incidentally have gained her great respect) told the host that she is happy now to have more time to devote on her project for a book on the Armenian genocide.

 

did you know about that?

 

[DominO123]

Domino, by the way do you know the famous ex- Quebec youth court judge André Ruffo? some months ago she was a guest of honour on CBC Sunday morning show from Montreal and after discussing her controversial dismissal from the youth court for her decisions (which incidentally have gained her great respect) told the host that she is happy now to have more time to devote on her project for a book on the Armenian genocide.

 

did you know about that?

 

How can I not know her, with all those debates serounding her not so usual proposals and decisions and her dismissal? I wasn't aware of the book project though. Is her announcement somewhere in the CBC archives?

[Z'areh]

Is her announcement somewhere in the CBC archives?

 

No, unfortunately I cannot find anything to show you, but when the host asked at the end of the show what's next for her, I did hear her say that now that she has more time on her hands she can work on her book project on the Armenian genocide. I take it as she is going to write anout the Armenian project.

 

The radio show was "All in a weekend" the host was either Janet Kelly or Fiona Downey, can't remember, about four-five months ago.

 

 

 

[AK-47]

That Michael guy with the Turkish wife is at it again, http://mvdg.wordpress.com/2007/11/10/armen...st-muslim-turks

[DominO123]

He's finished.

 

Necdet Sevinç, very credible source indeed, one of the most influencial author for the MHP elite, the editor of Bizim Anadolu (Our Anatolia) the official newspaper of the Nationalist Action Party. Michael will be exposed using a known fascist ideologist one of the first authors of the nationalists. Indeed his future wife faces is exposed by the days by finding nothing more than translating a racist. The quote from Wangenheim is even more funny and it was the same forged record about Van which I have exposed this moron previously.

 

And what's more??? Goshnak did not publish ANYTHING in May 14, 1915, this forgery was cooked by the famous newsgroup spammer and pooped by loosers like Michael all over the internet. Very credible is indeed Michael, he signed the death sentence of his pathetic blog.

 

And what do we have more? Halil Bey the bloodtursty serial killer who had gotten his colleague General Paraquin disgusted at his campaign of mass extermination.

 

And the poop even uses Bruce Clark work on the deportation of Greeks and Turks as evidence for anything. The author who wrote this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6386625.stm

 

Twerdo Khlebof, WOW! a Russian source, right? WRONG!!! It the translation done by Major Mehmet Sadik who falsified Mayewski report also. The originals which are supposed to be possesed by Turkey are NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. It was written while he was in captivity... Beside he wasn't even Russian, he was a Russian Tartar (''Khleb'' is enough?). Very credible sources the pittyful Michael the pooper is using, a source which was cooked to be used by Karabekir and even Talaat himself in his memoire and which specific aim was to be introduced during the Paris Peace Conference. What interesting there is that Refik who is the source there was actually working for the same departement as the translator (intelligence departement II), and he admits himself about the forgeries prepared to justify the decision taken against the Armenians. Shall I remind Mr. Poop what happened to Refik? The guy was very critical of the system, and had Ataturk against him who dismissed him from his job, the guy was discredited ''thrown'' sick and died soon therafter.

 

Henry D. Barnham, I have to see that..., the Turkish folks were actually soldiers, Barnham report a good deal of interesting information on the Armenian revolts in 1895, but also very interesting is his coverage of the disproportionate attacks.

 

I will not waste my time answering the rest of his crap, if there is anything I will do wasting my time on, it would be to do what I said I would do with his site. And check his lie on why he closed the comment section.

 

The days that his blog will have any level of credibility are counted, and with this new crap, he shortned it. Great Michael the pooper.

[Z'areh]

That Michael guy with the Turkish wife is at it again, http://mvdg.wordpress.com/2007/11/10/armen...st-muslim-turks

 

You know who Michael Van Der Galien reminds me of? Sam Weems. Now that's an achievement!

 

These Turcophile "more Catholic than the Pope" idiots spill all their verbal diarrhea against the Armenians to earn their keep, but one thing is for sure they help us more than they harm us, if they only knew! He is so full of bias that any sane reader would be turned off.

 

This guy is obviously being coached, some dubious material is being forwarded to him and he is so eager to sell himself that he is parking whatever integrity he might think he has in a pile of crap, and everytime he writes something about this issue he sinks further in, right now he is up to his eyebrows in his crap.

 

He has "closed" debate on this issue, why? because he claims Armenians are bullying him and his his Gazette staff. When Turks accuse others of "bullying" i) it is so funny because of their mastery of the art of bullying, ii) They are being exposed as the liers that they are.

 

His latest "thesis" is based upon supposed "Armenian terror handbook" that according to him proves everything. Right! Every "document" he gets from the Turks are correct and written in all sincerety, every document Armenians put forward are incorrect and writtn in insincerety. What a journalist indeed!!! yet he accuses others of exercising "godawful" journalism.

 

The funniest aspect in his latest charade is that the New york Times archival articles that he quotes work against his thesis. They are supposed to "demonstrate" Armenian killings and treachery against the Empire, actually the few that I read they re-emphasize Turkish atrocities against the Armenains and simply quote Turkish officials justifying their criminal actions. The newspaper, just like today, simply quoting the Turks accusing the Armenains of allegations of rebellions and killing innocent Turks. These are NOT field reports of Armenains committing atrocities.

 

The sadest thing about Michael the gazettier, is that he is making a mockery of his own maxim that reads on his paper's heading that states "Every [blog] has only its credibility and reputation to rely on."

 

Damn right Michael!!

[DominO123]

Read his update, what a looser. As if supressing freedom of speech can ever be justified, he really worth Turkey, what is he doing in an European country, he should pack his bags and move to his new fatherland. It takes a worthless social reject to choose a girl over his own dignity. His? I mean ''it.''

[Z'areh]

Read his update, what a looser. As if supressing freedom of speech can ever be justified, he really worth Turkey, what is he doing in an European country, he should pack his bags and move to his new fatherland. It takes a worthless social reject to choose a girl over his own dignity. His? I mean ''it.''

 

Domino don't blame the girl nor the country, a long line of people like him would sell even their own mothers along with their own souls to get what they want.

[DominO123]

Domino don't blame the girl nor the country, a long line of people like him would sell even their own mothers along with their own souls to get what they want.

 

I do blame his whore of a girlfriend. Necdet Sevinç used as evidence, who translated his work? That he had gotten a fascist ideologist work and gotten translated exposes on what sort of material this poop and his whore of a girlfriend have in their posession. Necdet Sevinç had the influence that few others had, one of the Gokalps of his era.

[irlandahay]

He's finished.

 

Necdet Sevinç, very credible source indeed, one of the most influencial author for the MHP elite, the editor of Bizim Anadolu (Our Anatolia) the official newspaper of the Nationalist Action Party. Michael will be exposed using a known fascist ideologist one of the first authors of the nationalists. Indeed his future wife faces is exposed by the days by finding nothing more than translating a racist. The quote from Wangenheim is even more funny and it was the same forged record about Van which I have exposed this moron previously.

 

And what's more??? Goshnak did not publish ANYTHING in May 14, 1915, this forgery was cooked by the famous newsgroup spammer and pooped by loosers like Michael all over the internet. Very credible is indeed Michael, he signed the death sentence of his pathetic blog.

 

And what do we have more? Halil Bey the bloodtursty serial killer who had gotten his colleague General Paraquin disgusted at his campaign of mass extermination.

 

And the poop even uses Bruce Clark work on the deportation of Greeks and Turks as evidence for anything. The author who wrote this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6386625.stm

 

Twerdo Khlebof, WOW! a Russian source, right? WRONG!!! It the translation done by Major Mehmet Sadik who falsified Mayewski report also. The originals which are supposed to be possesed by Turkey are NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. It was written while he was in captivity... Beside he wasn't even Russian, he was a Russian Tartar (''Khleb'' is enough?). Very credible sources the pittyful Michael the pooper is using, a source which was cooked to be used by Karabekir and even Talaat himself in his memoire and which specific aim was to be introduced during the Paris Peace Conference. What interesting there is that Refik who is the source there was actually working for the same departement as the translator (intelligence departement II), and he admits himself about the forgeries prepared to justify the decision taken against the Armenians. Shall I remind Mr. Poop what happened to Refik? The guy was very critical of the system, and had Ataturk against him who dismissed him from his job, the guy was discredited ''thrown'' sick and died soon therafter.

 

Henry D. Barnham, I have to see that..., the Turkish folks were actually soldiers, Barnham report a good deal of interesting information on the Armenian revolts in 1895, but also very interesting is his coverage of the disproportionate attacks.

 

I will not waste my time answering the rest of his crap, if there is anything I will do wasting my time on, it would be to do what I said I would do with his site. And check his lie on why he closed the comment section.

 

The days that his blog will have any level of credibility are counted, and with this new crap, he shortned it. Great Michael the pooper.

 

Wasnt majewski polish?

 

I couldve sworn I saw somwhere he was polish

 

Aside from that great post!

 

Hails

[DominO123]

Wasnt majewski polish?

 

I couldve sworn I saw somwhere he was polish

 

Aside from that great post!

 

Hails

 

He was from Russia, by ethnicity he could be a polish, but he was a Russian general. Funny part is that McCarthy uses his statistics to discredit Armenian claims, when those statistics were higher than the Ottoman figures anyway.

 

[hagopn]

And what's more??? Goshnak did not publish ANYTHING in May 14, 1915, this forgery was cooked by the famous newsgroup spammer and pooped by loosers like Michael all over the internet. Very credible is indeed Michael, he signed the death sentence of his pathetic blog.

 

Yes, David Davidian's big victory over the Turkish bots and spammers and the "Gotchnak Victory Celebration" is clear in my memory to this day. "Gotchnak was never published on May, 14th, 1915! Hurrah, Today is a day of victory against denialists..." etc etc.

 

As to the comments on yappers: Yap it may be, but yappers who are not interested in genocide are sometimes interested in presenting to the world what it is to be Armenian.

 

I find it rather amusing that genocide is the "most respected topic" when genocide, as Arpa has said in the past in another life a billion times, is the most shameful chapter in our history.

 

I consider, for example, a man like Eddie Arnavoudian http://www.narek.com/EddieArnavoudian/ to be worth a trillion and a half Dadrians, Davidians, and others. Our entire intellectual focus as a nation, whatever is left of it at this juncture, seems to be focused on who drives the best car and who knows most about the Genocide.

 

I call that a formula for Cultural Suicide. The ARF with its pomposity and "recognitionist vicar" pose has managed to create an Armenian caucus, but cannot seem to manage to open an Armenian day school worth a damn. The least these partisans could do is leave education to educators instead of party leadership.

 

I commend the people who do work on the genocide topic, but I would never dare to pretend that chosen focus is the most relevant or important.

 

As the matter of fact, the reason that genocide recogntionism is not a success in the US is precisely because Americans don't know diddly crap about Armenians except for the "contestation of genocide claims." I consider that to be a pretty pathetic state.

 

 

 

[DominO123]

Yeap, indeed that was Davidian discovery, it took me months (more precisely over a year) to confirm the information. I can't disagree with what you have said.

 

Yes, David Davidian's big victory over the Turkish bots and spammers and the "Gotchnak Victory Celebration" is clear in my memory to this day. "Gotchnak was never published on May, 14th, 1915! Hurrah, Today is a day of victory against denialists..." etc etc.

 

As to the comments on yappers: Yap it may be, but yappers who are not interested in genocide are sometimes interested in presenting to the world what it is to be Armenian.

 

I find it rather amusing that genocide is the "most respected topic" when genocide, as Arpa has said in the past in another life a billion times, is the most shameful chapter in our history.

 

I consider, for example, a man like Eddie Arnavoudian http://www.narek.com/EddieArnavoudian/ to be worth a trillion and a half Dadrians, Davidians, and others. Our entire intellectual focus as a nation, whatever is left of it at this juncture, seems to be focused on who drives the best car and who knows most about the Genocide.

 

I call that a formula for Cultural Suicide. The ARF with its pomposity and "recognitionist vicar" pose has managed to create an Armenian caucus, but cannot seem to manage to open an Armenian day school worth a damn. The least these partisans could do is leave education to educators instead of party leadership.

 

I commend the people who do work on the genocide topic, but I would never dare to pretend that chosen focus is the most relevant or important.

 

As the matter of fact, the reason that genocide recogntionism is not a success in the US is precisely because Americans don't know diddly crap about Armenians except for the "contestation of genocide claims." I consider that to be a pretty pathetic state.

 

[DominO123]

BTW, for your information, I never was part of Davidian ''fight'' on the internet, when I appeared on the cyberspace Davidian was long gone. I was very much impressed when I've read the newsgroup archive.

[hagopn]

BTW, for your information, I never was part of Davidian ''fight'' on the internet, when I appeared on the cyberspace Davidian was long gone. I was very much impressed when I've read the newsgroup archive.

 

Never implied it. I think you're doing fine. You don't have the pomposity that came with the old package. Try to stay that way. It works better.

[Z'areh]

Yes, David Davidian's big victory over the Turkish bots and spammers and the "Gotchnak Victory Celebration" is clear in my memory to this day. "Gotchnak was never published on May, 14th, 1915! Hurrah, Today is a day of victory against denialists..." etc etc.

 

As to the comments on yappers: Yap it may be, but yappers who are not interested in genocide are sometimes interested in presenting to the world what it is to be Armenian.

 

I find it rather amusing that genocide is the "most respected topic" when genocide, as Arpa has said in the past in another life a billion times, is the most shameful chapter in our history.

 

I consider, for example, a man like Eddie Arnavoudian http://www.narek.com/EddieArnavoudian/ to be worth a trillion and a half Dadrians, Davidians, and others. Our entire intellectual focus as a nation, whatever is left of it at this juncture, seems to be focused on who drives the best car and who knows most about the Genocide.

 

I call that a formula for Cultural Suicide. The ARF with its pomposity and "recognitionist vicar" pose has managed to create an Armenian caucus, but cannot seem to manage to open an Armenian day school worth a damn. The least these partisans could do is leave education to educators instead of party leadership.

 

I commend the people who do work on the genocide topic, but I would never dare to pretend that chosen focus is the most relevant or important.

 

As the matter of fact, the reason that genocide recogntionism is not a success in the US is precisely because Americans don't know diddly crap about Armenians except for the "contestation of genocide claims." I consider that to be a pretty pathetic state.

 

Hagopn, aren't you mixing apples and oranges? why do you compare history with literature, aren't both equally important? by what measure do you compare Mr. Arnavoudian with Dadrian? and " trillion and a half times more" at that!

 

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Is it a shame that we were subjected to genocide or is it a shame that today the name "Armenian" is associated by "genocide", well you might be right if it is the latter but is that our fault? and who cares really what others think of Armenians? no one gives a diddley about any body else in this world, what is more important is what we think of ourselves. Dadrian will do his part and Aharonian/Sevag/Raffi will do their part. which brings me to the state of education in diaspora, the lack of quality in that education system, this "guilt" must be equally shared by every group in diaspora, I don't suppose the not-so-pompous groups are doing that much better now are they?

 

And as for what you call "intellectuals who are focussed on who drives the best cars", sorry you lost me there, the idea of intellecuals and cars don't mix, I think you are hanging around the wrong people, what are you talking about?

 

[hagopn]

Hagopn, aren't you mixing apples and oranges? why do you compare history with literature, aren't both equally important? by what measure do you compare Mr. Arnavoudian with Dadrian? and " trillion and a half times more" at that!

 

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Is it a shame that we were subjected to genocide or is it a shame that today the name "Armenian" is associated by "genocide", well you might be right if it is the latter but is that our fault? and who cares really what others think of Armenians? no one gives a diddley about any body else in this world, what is more important is what we think of ourselves. Dadrian will do his part and Aharonian/Sevag/Raffi will do their part. which brings me to the state of education in diaspora, the lack of quality in that education system, this "guilt" must be equally shared by every group in diaspora, I don't suppose the not-so-pompous groups are doing that much better now are they?

 

And as for what you call "intellectuals who are focussed on who drives the best cars", sorry you lost me there, the idea of intellecuals and cars don't mix, I think you are hanging around the wrong people, what are you talking about?

 

You are correct. I don't fault us for having gone through genocide. Yes, you are correct, I fault us for identifying with the genocide and being identified solely through the genocide whenever the rare occasion of identifying us in the US mass media comes up.

 

Quite frankly, on the education note, the Tekeyans seem to run better schools than the ARF. Why? Becuase the Tekeyans are at lease an cultural organization. Yes, indeed, their schools are top quality. The party run schools are mediocre at best. Therefore, no, not all groups deserve the share of the blame.

 

As to the comparisons: No, I don't see things as apples and oranges. I measure the so-called apples and oranges through their common denominators of cultural identity, intellectual focus, intellectual maturation, and cultural self-awareness.

 

Yes, indeed, Eddie's work is much more valuable, since it is about surviving as a self-aware and strong culture that we are talking about. Genocide awareness is but one facet of our political awareness, but even that is not carefully looked at from the cultural and psychological perspective. It is mostly sold off as a political battle, but it is in fact ironically much more than that.

 

For this reason, I don't like the situation today, and I attribute our failure of selling our cause to a larger audience to our own neglect of our own identity issues.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[irlandahay]

He was from Russia, by ethnicity he could be a polish, but he was a Russian general. Funny part is that McCarthy uses his statistics to discredit Armenian claims, when those statistics were higher than the Ottoman figures anyway.

 

I remember McCarthy had gotten a warning a couple months back from the turkish government.

This is back when the democrats first suggested the bill on AG.

 

Erdogan had sent a letter to McCarthy threatening to cut his funding because he isnt doing his job right and the G word is being screamed out high and loud throughout the US and the entire civilised world.

 

He's quite pathetic that McCarthy fellow... shame hes a Scot

[AK-47]

The Galien is back and now he's targeting Facebook (and the Armenians) http://poligazette.com/2007/12/11/my-my-facebook-gives-in/ Edited December 13, 2007 by AK-47

[Nikephoros_Phokas]

Zurcher who the Turks classify as their side claimed Akçam work to be probably the closest to the truth.

 

I do not see why you classify or say Zurcher, is on the "Turks side". He is an Ottoman/Turkish historian but I do not think he is like that, if he was like that he would never praise Akcam or recognize the Armenian genocide.

 

Turkey is a state that has positions especially on important "national issues", that it imposes on its subjects. I was looking at a library at Kinross's biography on Ataturk and read the Intro where he thanked prominent Turkish politicans for access to certain archives, and he contacted many Nationalist Movement leaders which he thanked in the very Intro. I was thinking to loan it out to scan that in, but I did not. Zurcher in Turkey : a modern history(1994 edition) on the otherhand thanked mostly non-Turks for this work.

 

Alot of historians are very willing to assist the Turkish state in being voices to repeat "resmi tarih" abroad, I doubt Zurcher is one of those voices.

 

[DominO123]

I do not see why you classify or say Zurcher, is on the "Turks side". He is an Ottoman/Turkish historian but I do not think he is like that, if he was like that he would never praise Akcam or recognize the Armenian genocide.

 

Turkey is a state that has positions especially on important "national issues", that it imposes on its subjects. I was looking at a library at Kinross's biography on Ataturk and read the Intro where he thanked prominent Turkish politicans for access to certain archives, and he contacted many Nationalist Movement leaders which he thanked in the very Intro. I was thinking to loan it out to scan that in, but I did not. Zurcher in Turkey : a modern history(1994 edition) on the otherhand thanked mostly non-Turks for this work.

 

Alot of historians are very willing to assist the Turkish state in being voices to repeat "resmi tarih" abroad, I doubt Zurcher is one of those voices.

 

I don't, the Turks do, Zurcher participated on a German work on the genocide, so obviously he is not on their side. The Turks selectivally quote him to twist his sayings.