Arpa Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 (edited) Don't tell them. If those stupid turks only knew how much they have and are promoting our plight by simply denying it. They are thrashing like a "chicken (turkey) with its head cut off". They are losing their ruffled feathers. They are sinking ever deeper in that quicksand created by themselves. They are losinall credibility, and in the process causing idiots like Foxman of the ADL and his Jewish buddies lose all creibility. Please allow me to post this under the subject topic of “national” since it goes beyond the Genocide Recognition. We have touched upon this issue on various occasions. What if Turkey admits? What is next? Do we know? Do we have a plan? Or are we paralyzed with that 100 year struggle for recognition and admission? What’s next? Like the bank teller would announce “who’s next?” No, no. It is not what’s next, it is what is now. Do we know? The main reason Turkey has denied for over a 100 years is dimply because they know what will happen next. Reparations,punishment and territorial demands. In an interview on Regnum Harout Sassounian says the following. RECOGNITION OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE BY TURKEY IS A SECONDARY ISSUE - INTERVIEW WITH HARUT SASSOUNIAN Regnum http://www.regnum.ru/english/897320.html Oct 10 2007 “Of course, a tough struggle over the resolution has started. The Turkish Government is constantly blackmailing the United States, making statements on severing relations, putting obstacles for US troops in Iraq, and so on. The blackmail is actually senseless, as each statement like that damages the image of Turkey itself. Turkish commentators have recently pointed out that the time of threats have passed, and the blackmail damages Turkey itself. Alternative ways of admitting past events need to be found. We are now witnessing the formation of a favorable atmosphere both in the US Congress and in Turkey. However, the Turkish side still does not find the courage to admit this Crime Against Humanity, and the most likely reason is a psychological barrier - it is difficult to admit the fact that their forefathers committed such a barbaric act against another people.” He goes further saying that the recognition and the subsequent admission by Turkey will amount to nothing next to a “alap on the wrist” except that it will only blow smoke in the eyes of Europe and smooth the road to a membership in the EU. In other words, Turkey has more to gain from a recognition and admission than we, when a recognition and admission will lull us into a self congratulatory mode of inaction, while the main issue should be WHAT IS NEXT. Do we know? Have we thought about it? In fact it is not a matter of “what’s next”, it should be on the agenda right now, at the present, not “next”. Edited October 12, 2007 by Zartonk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 .... He goes further saying that the recognition and the subsequent admission by Turkey will amount to nothing next to a “alap on the wrist” except that it will only blow smoke in the eyes of Europe and smooth the road to a membership in the EU. In other words, Turkey has more to gain from a recognition and admission than we, when a recognition and admission will lull us into a self congratulatory mode of inaction, while the main issue should be WHAT IS NEXT. Do we know? Have we thought about it? In fact it is not a matter of “what’s next”, it should be on the agenda right now, at the present, not “next”. Agreed entirely. I have spoken with some of the skeptics amongts us, who feel that Genocide Recognition by the turks would spell disaster for the Armenian diaspora: The foundations of many diasporan structures are rooted in the quest for Genocide recognition as an end unto itself. A victory on this front would remove our raison d'être and with nothing further to seek, the structures crumble over a short time. Is this truly the case? Has our identity been reduced to this one objective? I personally don't believe so - but I do think that the Genocide is deeply entrenched within our cultural psyche, and that we, particularly in the diaspora will have some adaptations to make in the event of eventual AG recognition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Error 404 Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Although the recognition and compensation process may not be so short it may take even generations and lifetimes but if the question rises there is a good example for us to take. After the Holocaust recognition Israel was founded it was made strong and is still supported by Jewish diaspora till present. So we have still much to do even if the Armenian Genocide issue will become solved issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maral Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Just a few months ago I remember a friend of ours saying that there was an event here in LA to discuss what would be done when the Genocide is recognized...I dont' know was discussed,I honestly didn't think of asking,but now I can't believe it really might happen in my lifetime...I will find out the outcome and post it here soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 First, the vote on resolution 106 is a classic lesson of democracy that exemplifies the virtue of division of powers cherished in any democratic country. I think, that alone sends a strong message to all American allies and foes alike. (Russians take notes:)) Secondly, it is an imperative that USA needs real allies and real friends and not sorority club members that would turn their backs every time they have something nor very democratic in their egoistic minds. Thirdly, by opening a process that would lead to just resolution of Armenian-Turkish relations, America will eventually win another ally, which in turn will reinforce the peace and stability in the Caucasus region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK-47 Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Well, after the recognition, obviously we must campaign a la Jew to reinforce it to the point that every person will know the Armenian Genocide as much as the Jewish one. There is also compensation to deal with, be it by land/money etc. And let's not forget the Turks ugly cousins, the "azeris", who still remain the number one threat to Armenia the land at the moment. With the genocide recognition becoming more and more strong and self-supporting, we could concentrate most of our ressources on Artsakh, as in the campaign for its independence/reunion [with Armenia]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVO Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Nicely said AK, our priority, after this, should be that Armenian Genocide is thought in the US schools. And yes Artsakh should become #1 priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 What is next? We need to make sure that the resolution passes the full house with overwhelming majority. After that Armenian lobby and our friends including Greek, Jewish and other groups should focus on complete isolation of Turkey. One way to do this and it is already on its way is bringing back Iran in the orbit of the Western world where Persia has always been and at times even Persia was the pillar of the Western world. Warming up the relations with Syria is also very important and it reflects the feeling of the majority of the Syrians (Arabs as a general rule despise Turks). That way the pressures and the attacks in Iraq by extremist groups would decrease in volume and number. Isolating Turkey will help Kurds to ascertain their priorities and regroup in the North of Iraq and plus becoming factor of the stability in that part of the country. With the latest announcements coming from the Israeli leadership about certain concessions to Palestinians I think that wouldn't be a difficult task which in turn would help Israel with her security issues. Once bringing back Iran and Syria o the table of negotiations, Turkey will sink deep down somewhere in the corner. Moreover Americans can use Erebuni military airbase. Diversifying the routs of oil flow to western market would create more competitive atmosphere in oil exploration operations and even can push some of the countries that were excluded or (self-isolated) from that process to jump in. On the Balkans, isolating Turkey and limiting her say in Balkan affairs would help Albanians make a choice about their future development and instead of being used as separatist element they would be inclined to choose the path of integration. The diminish role of Turkey in the Balkans will also help consolidate the Balkan economies in a way the best suits the interests of the Balkan countries and will help the integration process of the Western Balkans in the EU thus solidifying the borders and the security systems of the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindtrap Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 What is next? We need to make sure that the resolution passes the full house with overwhelming majority. After that Armenian lobby and our friends including Greek, Jewish and other groups should focus on complete isolation of Turkey. One way to do this and it is already on its way is bringing back Iran in the orbit of the Western world where Persia has always been and at times even Persia was the pillar of the Western world. Warming up the relations with Syria is also very important and it reflects the feeling of the majority of the Syrians (Arabs as a general rule despise Turks). That way the pressures and the attacks in Iraq by extremist groups would decrease in volume and number. Isolating Turkey will help Kurds to ascertain their priorities and regroup in the North of Iraq and plus becoming factor of the stability in that part of the country. With the latest announcements coming from the Israeli leadership about certain concessions to Palestinians I think that wouldn't be a difficult task which in turn would help Israel with her security issues. Once bringing back Iran and Syria o the table of negotiations, Turkey will sink deep down somewhere in the corner. Moreover Americans can use Erebuni military airbase. Diversifying the routs of oil flow to western market would create more competitive atmosphere in oil exploration operations and even can push some of the countries that were excluded or (self-isolated) from that process to jump in. On the Balkans, isolating Turkey and limiting her say in Balkan affairs would help Albanians make a choice about their future development and instead of being used as separatist element they would be inclined to choose the path of integration. The diminish role of Turkey in the Balkans will also help consolidate the Balkan economies in a way the best suits the interests of the Balkan countries and will help the integration process of the Western Balkans in the EU thus solidifying the borders and the security systems of the EU. In regards to Americans using the Erebuni airbase, (and this is with the presumption that Russia will allow them to waltz in there and set up shop) I hope to never see this day. The last thing Armenia wants to do is aggravate the only thing that has kept the Turks from finishing us off in the first place, Russian "protection" or as some see it "occupation". We have a lot to offer, there is new talk of oil in the region, uranium, and much more but we need to work with those closest to us. Its not who can feed us today, but who will provide food for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Hi Mindtrap, I used Erebuni figuratively. I know there are at least three more suitable military airbases that can be used if necessary after some uplifting I don't think Russians would object it since they offered their radars in Azerbaijan to be used by USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted October 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 (edited) In case my question was not understood, or maybe I did not mke it clear. My question of "What's Next.. What now"? was meant to address the issue of... Suppose the reolution is passed, supposing that Turkey acknowedges, admits and apologizes, allows the use of the AG word, and all the Turkish papers and TV stations rpeat the G word 100 times a day, then what? Then we will have no leg to stand on. The "question" will be solved, Turkey will come out smelling like roses, it will join the EU, since as it seems the main and only obstacle is the AG that some are holding aginst Turkey's entry into the EU. Then what? Shall we all sing "Yeghbayr dartsan Hayastan Azerbaijan(Turkastan)", kiss and hug, dance the kochari together to the sound of oud and dumbek"??!!! How long are we going to play this barakhagh/wordgame of semantics? Are we going to forever stay stuck with that G word? Can we look and see beyond our "big Armenian noses"? Edited October 13, 2007 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 No Arpa, I think it would be more trivial. Turks are Turks. It would be business as usual. Hopefuly the Armenian-Turkish border will be open for trade and traveling, but before that the border line will move some 300 miles to the west. There would be tick paycheck presented to Turkey in one of the International courts and they lived happily after... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted October 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 (edited) No Arpa, I think it would be more trivial. Turks are Turks. It would be business as usual. Hopefuly the Armenian-Turkish border will be open for trade and traveling, but before that the border line will move some 300 miles to the west. There would be tick paycheck presented to Turkey in one of the International courts and they lived happily after... Let me nominate Gamavor as King of Armenia. Where do you se any mention of "300 miles to the west"? Don't tell me , "From sea to shining sea", from Batum to Aadana! Which village are you going to move to? Are we forever to get stuck on the letter G? It is a long way to the letter R, as in Reparation, Repatriation, Recompense and Retribution. Yeah! Yeah! Let us spend/waste all of our resources, have the G word accepted as an household word, with no idea of the next step. Then what? Edited October 13, 2007 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Գործը ժամանակի ընթացքին ինքզինք կը պարտադրէ: Ընդհանուր ուրուագիծ մը տամ. -Նպաստել հայկական բանակի անյաղթահարելիութեան պայմաններ: -Ստեղծել օդային, ցամաքային պաշտպանութեան համար զէնք-զինամթերքի արտադրութեան կառոյցներ: -Կարեւորել Հայաստանի գոյութիւնը եւ ապահովութիւնը յարատեւ քարոզչութեամբ, աշխատանքով -Ստեղծել պայմաններ, որ միջազգային կացութիւնը, ի մասնաւորի՝ Միջին Արեւելքի իրավիճակը. Հայաստանի շահին հակառակ ուղիով չընթանայ: -Կամաց կամաց մուտք գործել՝ գտնուած երկիրներու պետական կառոյցներէ ներս: -Արցախի, եւ ընդհանրապէս Հայութեան դատը ներկայացնել մէկ փաթեթով, քանզի Հայաստանի հանդէպ թուրքազեր գաղութարարներու գործադրած խտրական-ցեղասպանական քաղաքականութեան հետեւանքն են մեր բոլոր իրաւազրկումները: -Հայապահպանում՝ հայահաւաք, Հայաստանահաւաք: -Ստեղծել պայմաններ դէպի երկիր հոսանքը դիւրացնող: -Նպաստել միջազգային խաղաղութեան: -Սովորել մի քիչ աւելի խորամանկ լինել: Եւայլն եւայլն... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Acctually I'm thinking about renting out one of my properties to the Pentagon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 (edited) Agreed entirely. I have spoken with some of the skeptics amongts us, who feel that Genocide Recognition by the turks would spell disaster for the Armenian diaspora: The foundations of many diasporan structures are rooted in the quest for Genocide recognition as an end unto itself. A victory on this front would remove our raison d'être and with nothing further to seek, the structures crumble over a short time. I predict that recognition won't be a one-day event. Rather, it will be a long-term process. All the organizations and lobbies that are focused on genocide recognition now, will be concentrating on reconciliation and compensation after Turkey officially recognizes the Armenian Genocide and condemns genocide denial. In the meantime, I say, let our raison d'être, if we need one, be Armenia. There's plenty to be done there. Edited October 13, 2007 by nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Well, after the recognition, obviously we must campaign a la Jew to reinforce it to the point that every person will know the Armenian Genocide as much as the Jewish one. I hope you are being sarcastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 How long are we going to play this barakhagh/wordgame of semantics? Are we going to forever stay stuck with that G word? Can we look and see beyond our "big Armenian noses"? I'm probably too naive to understand, but from what I see there are many diasporans who are looking beyond their noses, depi Hayastan. That makes me optimistic that there is more to our existence than the big G. What is next? There is no next. There is only a continuation of the process to build and improve Armenia for as long as it exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 There is obviously the question of our lands and it is up to Armenia to ask for and see that we get it. We have to see that Artsaxian question is resolved to our benefit, to continue making Armenia stronger. Get along with our neighbors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted October 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 (edited) I'm probably too naive to understand, but from what I see there are many diasporans who are looking beyond their noses, depi Hayastan. That makes me optimistic that there is more to our existence than the big G. What is next? There is no next. There is only a continuation of the process to build and improve Armenia for as long as it exists. Yes Nairi, that is the spirit, even if there will still be a lot of mess to clean caused by the AG, such as reparations… etc. Vava’s points above ring so true in my ear, as for the past few decades I have asked this question over and over, mostly talking to myself, but I have also advanced it in public. What next? What do w do when it is all resolved(?, in whose advantage?) Statements like “Our ethnic, national identity is based on the Genocide” that I have read and heard numerous times have puzzled me to this day. HUH? Will someone tell me what that means? Never mind. I know what that means. It means that ever since then our entire existence and being has evolved around the Big G. 9 out of every 10 books written is like “how my grandmother escaped”. Our, specially in the Diaspora, literature, poetry, arts, painting, sculpture, music and dance is all colored with the blood of our ancestors. Of course, when I was asking those questions a few decades ago our history was one long saga of defeats and massacres, we were so obsessed with DEATH and destruction. Since then our attention has turned to LIFE and more life. Since then we have had “a new baby”, no, “two new babies” , twins named Hayastan and Artsakh. So, not to worry about what we do after all that dust settles, to not mean that we will not pursue full and just resolution, be it reparation, recovery of lost lands and repatriation. We have, as it may be two beautiful “babies” to nurture and watch them grow. In the meantime turkland can join the EU or whatever damn union they wish, move their entire population to Germany, their old Central Powers and Axis allies, get the hell out of ancestral lands. Maybe only then the Germans will understand what it means to ally with the Ottoman-Turks. Like Gamavor says; “Wait till their turko-rape children start talking a new GerTurk dialect -gobble-gobble.” Maybe only then we get back to real arts and literature, rather than use blood in our pens and on our brushes, write love poems and paint beautiful nudes rather than emaciated “skeletons“.. PS. Also not to forget what Johannes said above. Edited October 14, 2007 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 I'm probably too naive to understand, but from what I see there are many diasporans who are looking beyond their noses, depi Hayastan. That makes me optimistic that there is more to our existence than the big G. What is next? There is no next. There is only a continuation of the process to build and improve Armenia for as long as it exists. Canalizing the energy to Armenia will happen regardless of the genocide recognition. NK issue will attract more and more the Diaspora once they realise that Azerbaijan is more of a threat than Turkey and while all the ressources are concentrated on one spot the Azerbaijani's have taken the occasion to hit for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindtrap Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 They've always been the #1 threat in recent history (what an oxymoron huh? lol). The one thing we have on our side, they don't have the guts. Just like in the 90's where they outsourced their military they will do it again. As long as we have Russian troops on Armenian soil, we will be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK-47 Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Armenia should resist Azeri propaganda 16.10.2007 15:43 GMT+04:00 Print version Send to mail In Russian In Armenian /PanARMENIAN.Net/ “Opposition to Azeri propaganda is actually one of important fields and we should mobilize efforts to unite the Foreign Ministry, Diasporan organizations and individuals for anti-Azeri propaganda,” Armenian Ambassador to Lebanon, Vahan Ter-Ghevondian said in an interview with PanARMENIAN.Net. “The point is that since 1988 Azerbaijan has been trying to mislead the Islam word and represent the Karabakh issue as a religious conflict, picturing Armenians as “fanatics” and “terrorists”, who fight against kind and peaceful Muslims. Baku’s activities resulted in adoption of several anti-Armenian resolutions by thew OIC and other international organizations, which made one-sided decisions through unawareness. Some Arab states, including the Saudi Arabia and Pakistan do not establish diplomatic relations with Armenia. Hence, it’s essential to prepare materials, representing the Karabakh problem as the issue of self-determination (like the Palestinian one) and circulate them in Middle East and Muslim world. Armenia should be represented as a peaceful and tolerant state to Islamic countries, whose cultural heritage is respected. It would be useful to mention about reconstruction of the Blue Mosque in Yerevan and a mosque in Shushi, protection of Turkmen cemetery in Argavand. Such materials if showed by Al Jazeera and other TV Channels may change attitude about Armenia. Armenian organizations and individuals from Diaspora, who achieved success in politics and business, can make a big contribution to the mission,” he said. Source: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=23717 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 (edited) Lիբանանում Հ.Հ. դեսպանն իրաւացի առաջարկ է կատարել: Իրօք Միջին Արեւելքի Հայ Դատի գրասենեակը աշխատել է բաւականին եւ աշխատում է: Կարգ մը արաբական անկախ կամ կիսանկախ լրատուամիջոցներ յարում են թուրքերի կողմը, որքան որ ալ իրաւացի լինենք մե դատում: Գիտէք կրօնական մշակութային գործօնը մեծ դեր է խաղում: ԱՆձնական շփումները պետական մակարդակով ժողովրդական (առեւտուր, մշակոյթ) շատ կարեւոր են լրատուական քարոզչութեան առընթեր: Այս ֆորումում բաւականին հայհոյանք եւ ծաղր կայ իսլամ կրօնի եւ իսլամ մարդու հանդէպ (գուցէ ես էլ եմ մասնակցել): Եթէ մենք քաղաքականութիւն ենք խաղալու. Կարծում եմ վերացնելու ենք այդպիսի թեմաները մէջտեղից, իսկ եթէ մեր անձական կարծիքը արտայայտելով մեր իրաւունքն ենք ապրում. թող մնան: Ինչեւէ, եթէ կուզէք հայֆուրումում բանանք արաբական բաժին. որտեղ Հայկական քարոզչութիւն կատարել կը խոստանամ: Edited October 17, 2007 by Johannes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 (edited) Չէ՞ որ վերջերս մեր հայերը պատվեցին ու հարգեցին Սուրիոյ նախագահին Պաշար Ալ Ասատին թէ 1915-1918 երբ սռիկայ Թալէաթը կը պահանջէր Սուրիոյ քաղաքապետերէն որ բոլոր հայերը թեւ կիսամարդ կիզիչ անապատներէն ի վերչոյ Սուրիայ կը հասնէին բոլորը սպաննուին; եւ սակայն եւ ոչ մէկ Սուրիացի քաղաքապէտ Թալէաթի մտիկ չրաւ ու անոնք պաշտպանեցին Հայերուն որ այսօրուան արեւմտահայերուն մեծամասնութիւնը այդ վերապրողներէն կը բաղկանան: Արապը թէեւ մուսիլման է բայց վատ Թուրք չէ: Edited October 18, 2007 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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