To shave one's face

[nairi]

So far:

 

Trashvel: (colloquial) from the Persian tarashidan. It can be used for face, head and body.

 

Atsilvel or Atselvel: (formal/uncommon) Armenian word derived from atseli, or blade in English. It's used for face, head and body. It is NOT, however, derived from the word tslel, or to grow in English. Atseli is almost definitely a word on its own, with no known prefix.

 

Saprvel: (formal) Armenian word used for face, head and body.

 

Maz vertsnel: (polite) it can be used for instance in: "Amen aravot yeres@s vertsnoom em", or "Votqeris mazer@ vertsrel em."

 

Trashd anoosh lini: (phrase) used like djoord anoosh lini. In this case, only trashd works, i.e. you can't say "Saprvatsd anoosh lini".

 

As for opposites, Mosjan, it's:

 

trashvats - chtrashvats - antrash

atsilvats - chatsilvats

saprvats - chsaprvats

 

[ November 01, 2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: nairi ]

[Harut]

 

i hear this for the first time.

 

 

"saprd anush" is another way of saying it.

 

antrash - trashov

seemingly two opposite words, but have the same meaning.

[Sip]

I would like to add the new one: xhoozel

 

In case of my brother, if he doesn't shave every day, on pretty much the third day we have to literally "xhoozel" him like a "vochxhar" ... Gee I hope he doesn't see this

[Guest Fadi]

Bad guy Seaphan, I'm afraid I have to show it to your brother.

[Sip]

Aha! But then I may have to remind everyone about your (x-x) is not 0 proof ... I didn't want to say anything in the genocide thread because that would probably ruin your reputation

[Guest Fadi]

But... I was right...

 

If you don't agree with it, then you disagree with the 7 undeterminated forms in mathematic...

 

Inf * 0, 0/0, 1 ^ inf, 0 ^ inf, inf - inf, inf/inf, inf ^ 0

 

I have demonstrated as well, by giving an example where ther equation don't maked "0" when we end up with one of the indeterminated for 0/0

 

You won't be able to stop me with those tricks, your brother will know what you said, and as for your last post, you'll pay for it, and I will be telling your GF, that you are cheating her with your computers.

 

BTW, I sound weird I know, it must be the changes of climats here that affect my moods, its like I am on something...

 

[ November 01, 2002, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[nairi]

I know, it's not very common, and I think it's only/mainly used among some Parska-Hays, but it does exist. Do you know any more "polite" expressions for shaving one's face?

 

Now this is one I've never heard before. Is it correct Armenian?

 

Where did you find "trashov"? I couldn't find it in the dictionary.

[MosJan]

Atseli - Sparel - Sprich - Saprvats - CH@Sap@rvats

 

Shnorhakal em sa bavakan e kariq chka kartrtsum em nor barer voronelu yev kam hnarelu iysqannn el vor pahenq lav klini

 

 

Norits SHnorhakal em

 

Movses

[nairi]

This just really got me interested Mosjan. Armenian is such a rich language, that trivial things like "to shave", can become very interesting to research. Where did these words originate from? What is the difference between them? What was the original difference? How many more words or expressions for "to shave" do we have? That sort of stuff. But you're welcome anyway.

[nairi]

"saprd anoosh": great invention! Should we officially add it to the list of words and expressions?

 

"trashov": I was with a few Hayastantsis last night, and they basically said what you said. I wonder if other Armenians also use this word. Whatever the case, it's definitely valid for the list. Thanks.

[Harut]

nairi, unfortunately i don't have an Armenian dictionary, and never used it to come up with those words and expressions.

 

there are just words that i know and are used by common people.

 

"saprd anush": even though i've never heard it myself, it sound gramatically correct, because "sapr" is a word. ("gishervan sapr@ xer e", Hakop Paronian)

 

i'm not suprised that you didn't find "trashov" in any dictionary, as it's jargon type of word.

[Twilight Bark]

Sireli Nairi,

 

I am afraid your understanding of "language tree" is fundamentally different from mine. Armenian is an indo-european language by origin, and not by imposition or colonization. Therefore, most (almost all) "indo-european" words in Armenian are also "native".

 

The word "trashwel" is almost certainly a "recent" (it may be centuries for all I know, but still ...) addition to the slang. I personally don't use it, and must confess never heard it in "proper" Armenian. The word "trash" also exists in Turkish, and could have found its way into Armenian via Turkish. In any case, it is not nearly as Armenian as "atsilwil". However, I have no objection to enriching the language by importing or making up words. Perhaps we can mine Grabar as well for an even richer source, and much closer to home.

 

Got to go now ... Duty calls ...

 

TB

[sen_Vahan]

'maz verznel' is used sometimes for haircut - 'maz verznel','maz ktrel'.

 

'Saprd anoush' exists probably only in Erevan...oh, sorry, and LA

 

New (morazvats) version - 'trashd shnorhavor' !

[nairi]

Dear TB,

 

What is "by origin" though? Who were the first speakers of Indo-European? How did it spread? And how did Armenians acquire it? You'll agree that the answers to these questions are all mere speculations and that the theories keep changing. Even if Armenians were born into Indo-European, or voluntarily adopted it as their native language, it was still not originally theirs. Therefore, Indo-European words that sound originally Armenian (like kov and katoo), are actually Armenianized forms, very much like cow and cat in English.

 

Grabar: I was hoping to find out what words/expressions for "shaving one's face" there are in grabar, and how many of these "modern" words were derived from grabar. I've been meaning to ask the one professor we have here, but he's out of the country at the moment. I hope to see him soon.

 

Vahan jan, thank you! Any more?

[Twilight Bark]

The "origins" are not as mysterious or murky as they are often made out to be, especially when one is disciplined with definitions. Armenians first appear as a coherent entity as a subordinate province in the Hittite Empire, by the name of Hayasa-Azzi province (the "Haykazian" period in Khorenatsi). Since Hittite was also indo-european, and Hayasa-Azzi shows itself as a coherent entity with which the Hittite center signed a treaty relatively late in the life of the Hittite empire, it is reasonable to assume that the language of this first coherently "Hye" entity was indo-european as well. As for the precise languages that their anthropological ancestors spoke, it is not all that relevant to deciding what forms a "native" Armenian word, as there was no concept of an "Armenian" at the time. If we go far back enough, our material ancestors spoke the grunts and screams of the apes, and going further back they ultimately were the silent unicellular organisms. Fascinating to be sure, but not relevant to deciding which words are "native" Armenian.

 

Keep thinking.

 

TB

[nairi]

But what definitions are you disciplined with that many others who have studied this field forever are not?

 

Your historiography of the Armenian language has largely been confirmed by many scholars, but as you said yourself, Indo-European has been acquired by Armenians. Armenians did not invent Indo-European. My point is: if after centuries, "trashvel" is still considered a foreign borrowing, then so should Indo-European words. It is irrelevant whether the first recorded Armenians spoke Indo-European or not. What is relevant however, is that Indo-European was never originally Armenian. The only truly native Armenian words are those we can trace back without doubt as purely Armenian inventions. Everything else is either a foreign borrowing or a speculation. This includes the family we chose to belong to.

 

Keep thinking

 

Nairi

[MosJan]

Hamamits em Nairi jan

sakayn jamanak ar jamanak @est sovorutyan / Sxal- Himar/ ogtagortsum em / enq barer voronq voch HAyeren en voch el kap unen mer Mayreni lezvi het / hameniyn deps k@rkin angam shnorhakal em qezanits yev im lav barekam Arpait's urrman hamar /

 

i'mIj iylots arden 3 or e Komitasi ashxatanqneri masin em kardum / girq@ nvirvat se mi Americatsy barekami kormits vorn hovanavorel e grqi t@pagrutyun@/ iyn Komitasyan XazaGreri masin e - - urraki apshats em mnatsel te mer Komitas@ inchpes e pastagrel yev trtin handznel vochi miyayn 3000it's avel;i azgayin/Zut Haykakan yerger yev tonakatarutyuner - sksyal minj-hetanosakan jamanakner minch ir orer@. zaranali e - inchpes e karrratsel - yev hetaqrqir@ gites inchne vro hetanosakan jamanakashrjanum mer HAykakan yergn u yerajshtutyun@ yerel e ZULLAL MAQUR - ANBITS - chi unetsel yev voch mi xarnurd yev voch mi harevan petutyan yev n@rants katarelakerpi yev bareri.

 

inchyeve shnorhakal em krkin

 

Movses

[nairi]

Mosjan, yete kez tchisht em haskanoom, you say that you speak wrong Armenian out of habit. Inchpes? Haykakan bar@ haykakan e. There's nothing wrong with using "trashvel". It's just more colloquial, or slang, but there's nothing non-Armenian about it. Yes, in its origins there is, but how similar are "trashvel" and "tarashidan" now? Besides, Mosjan, many many many words in any language were taken from another language at one time or another. That's why we have language trees. Armenian belongs in the Indo-European family. This means that words like "kov" and "katoo", are not necessarily Armenian in origin, but they have been Armenianized over time. So, if it's okay to say "kov", then it's also okay to "trashvel".

 

Have fun reading about Komitas!

 

Nairi

 

[ November 05, 2002, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: nairi ]

[THOTH]

Hey TB - don't be mean. A problem I have with you, MJ and occasionally some others is assuming that everyone who posts here is some kind of academic. In fact those that are - and those who think with discipline - as you say - are really a minority. (and some like me don't even type with discipline and certainly can't spell right in any event). Its just the way it is. this doesn't mean that the rest of us don't have anything at all to contribute - or can't learn. Fine - correct mistakes and suggest avenues of exploration etc if you know them - but please resist putting people down. I know its less fun and perhaps more work - but your goal is not to just have a two way conversation with MJ is it? - for that you can use email. I see no need to drive away good, interested people - like Nairi - with such patronizing comments.

 

[ November 05, 2002, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[nairi]

Okay TB jan, I'll be honest with you. Unlike yourself, I have not yet acquired enough knowledge about languages and their origins to make such determined statements as yourself. As for relying on somebody else's disciplines first before making up my own: it is merely a short-cut. You've obviously already educated yourself plenty in this field. I'm still a student of languages, so please give me some more time before I am at your level of understanding.

 

And thus they acquired Indo-European like their Hittite cousins. Or are you suggesting that Armenians were the first to speak Indo-European, and it is from them that the rest of the world acquired it?

[Guest Fadi]

Dear Nairi

 

Indo-European is not a language, it is a group of language, what you should understand is that we are not really talking of acquirence but rather evolution of language.

 

Lets give an example, someone that has no language, will find a way to communicate and depanding to the society he lives in, he will try to immitate others, and finaly will master a basic dialect of the language, that later he will use ti communicate.

 

It was not the cases with the Armenians, what you must as well understand is that a language is the hearth of a culture, and those Armenians that lived with the Hittite to acquire a dialect of indo-European family, they should first have a dialect for their own, because that will be one of the major bases of their social life. There is no such thing as "pure" Armenian word, because Armenian is not a group of language itself, but a branch of the family called "Indo-European"

 

Imagine that a little society speak the same language, and later this society grow, and they decide to devide and each division decide to go and live elswhere founding their own society... in each dividion a society eveolve, the language complexify and compared to the mother society that existed, is now different, each divisions that formed a society now have their own languages, that are different from each others, they all orginate from the same place, but still they are in a certain point of the evolution, that if two of those societies were to meet eachothers, they will not understand themselves.

 

Now, Armenians, persians, Greeks etc... are parts of those divisions, and Hittite is just an extencts part of this division that did not made up, and was not able to pass the barier of time.

 

Thats what Indo-European is, Indo-European is not a language, it is meant to be the family, that would be able to link different languages(or rather dialects) to the same cathegory.

 

[ November 05, 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Domino ]

[sen_Vahan]

Evolution of the language is an evolution in TIME(historical) and SPACE (geographical). So, one may think about older languages in the same group and relatively new ones (in time). Today IE group of languages consists of different sub-divisions, some of which are older than the others.

For example, if we find a word in slavic group which also exists in older ones then one might say that the word was imported (was taken) from one of those older languages(to determine where it came from we need a time/space analysis).

So, it is relevant to ask about the origins and source of some word if it exists in several or more languages within the same group(meaning historical/geographical origins). As I understand that's what Nairi is trying to find out(I may be wrong though).

[nairi]

If anyone has credible evidence or proof to contradict this statement, you are welcome to show us.

 

Vahan jan, the discussion started with me wanting to find out as many Armenian(ized) words/expressions for "to shave one's face" as possible. And for that, I also found it important to explore their origins and their original meanings. I wanted to know whether there was a fundemental difference between, for instance, "atsilvel" and "saprvel" in their original meaning, and how, if so, they became synonyms. So, yes, you understood what I'm trying to do.

 

Thoth, fortunately I don't feel patronized too easily. But thanks for standing up for me anyway. You're a good guy.

 

Nairi

[Twilight Bark]

I was not being mean. I was, and am still, irritated by a refusal to be receptive. I have near-infinite patience with people as long as I perceive them to be with good will. If I sense that my counterpart is motivated by "scoring points" of any sort rather than having an honest exchange of ideas, my patience evaporates, as it should.

 

It's a shame you base your problem with me on a misperception.

 

When was the last time you saw me pick on people's spelling troubles? You know this has nothing to do with typing or spelling discipline.

 

When was the last time you saw me even remotely imply that?

 

Yes. As I am now having to put in time that I actually don't have. Nairi got none of the points I tried to make, misrepresented what I said, and simply repeated her false perceptions about language, history, and identity. It was the combination of ignorance and arrogance that triggered my "harsh" response. I have no time to entertain someone whose main intention is to "win" an argument simply for the sake of "winning" it.

 

Nairi's patronizing attitude (and the implied low probability of her walking away from the exchange better informed) is the root cause of this wasteful debate.

 

Even the most "challenged" correspondent will get infinite patience from me as long as he or she does not display the toxic combination of ignorance and arrogance.

[Twilight Bark]

This is not about depth of knowledge per se, age, or experience. This is about intellectual attitude and use of logic. I am not claiming general superiority on any subject. I am simply inviting you to be more logical in making sense of human history.

 

You miss my points at two levels. First, there is no evidence that neither Hittites nor Armenians had to "acquire" the indo-europeanness of their language. But that is in fact irrelevant, which brings up the second level. Even if the anthropological ancestors of Armenians did acquire their language from elsewhere, the "Hye" nation per se was formed when those people were speaking an indoeuropean language. To speak about "native Armenian" concerning times when there was no "Armenian" identity is meaningless. That would take us all the way back to the grunts and animal noises that our biological ancestors undoubtedly made. It's not helpful.

 

Whatever the particular group of people brought with them at the time of formation of the Hye nation constitutes the most ancient "native" words, regardless of what group of languages they belong to. Some later additions would also qualify, if they came with a group of people that assimilated into Armenians in such numbers that they redefined what "Armenian" was, such as the language of Urartu (Nairi? ). For example, the word "khntsor" (apple) was perhaps not in the language at the time of Hayasa. But being an Urartuan word, it is certainly a native word.

 

I am sure there are many instances where we would be testing our sanity trying to decide what is native and what is not. However, indo-european lexicon in the Armenian language is not among them.

 

I hope I did not upset you too much. And I certainly do not wish to discourage you. You have my best wishes in your intellectual journey. May you end up much farther than I will ever be. That is what I wish for my children, and I wish the same for you.

 

Over and out,

Twilight Bark