Saz

[kumkap]

are there any well known armenian saz players? the reason i ask is it seems to be a strictly turkish thing, yet i've seen the word saz used in armenian poetry. are they referring to a different instrument maybe?

 

here are some examples:

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PtMu_TrwlCk

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=msP2dFbAKa4

 

the second video brings up another question i have: this song has an interesting rhythmic structure (compound meter of 3+3+4+5, 3+3+4+5, etc.). is there anything similar in armenian music? a dance like tamzara has a 9/8 rhythm (really a 4+5), but that's fairly common in anatolian music.

Edited May 15, 2007 by kumkap

[MosJan]

it is not Armenian

Saz is an Persian - Turkish instrument

 

[Anoushik]

the second video brings up another question i have: this song has an interesting rhythmic structure (compound meter of 3+3+4+5, 3+3+4+5, etc.). is there anything similar in armenian music? a dance like tamzara has a 9/8 rhythm (really a 4+5), but that's fairly common in anatolian music.

That's pretty interesting. Did you figure out the rhythm yourself or you already knew the meter of that piece?

 

This reminds of the Indian talas. Except the talas form longer patterns.

[kumkap]

ha, i'm glad you asked that. i had to work it out myself but believe me it took several listenings. there seems to be a certain class of this anatolian folk music that has unusual time signatures like this, some even more complicated than that one.

 

as far as saz goes though saying an instrument is persian or turkish or something else doesn't automatically rule it out as not armenian (by the way i doubt turks brought the saz from central asia, i'm pretty sure it was in anatolia before they arrived). tar and kemence are probably persian also, kanun is probably arabic in origin, but those instruments are very prevalent in traditional armenian music. actually we wouldn't have too much choice of instruments if we ruled out everything that wasn't strictly armenian, there wouldn't be any of the beautiful music of khachatur avetisian for example.

 

by the way mos jan if you look at the second video of surik you posted in the other thread, there is actually a saz next to him, in addition to an oud, which was also very popular amongst the ottoman armenians. he is a master of all those instruments, it's too bad there aren't many more like him, and we are using synthesizers and electric guitars to play our traditional music.

[MosJan]

saz is not an Armenian instrument

we Armenian will never invent such primitive instruments

 

 

Armenian tar and Armenian kemenca are Armenian instruments

if you search the forum you will find many topics on Tar & Qyamancha

kanun is Armenian ask Saqo The Santur Player if you ever see him in LA

[kumkap]

well what do you know, surik himself has an album called "Khosir Im Sazs"

 

http://www.narek.com/store/product.php?pro...at=0&page=1

 

i wonder what he would say about the matter.

 

personally i don't care whether it is or not, and i think it's probably impossible to say for sure anyway. one thing is for sure qyamancha and tar are the same instruments in persian music as they are in armenian music and persians will probably tell you it's persian and give you proof of it too. same thing for kanun. but who cares? and what is primitive about saz. it's just a long-necked lute with three courses of strings that are plucked, not that different from tar actually.

 

i think what this shows though is that what is considered armenian, what is considered persian, what is considered turkish, greek, kurdish, assyrian, etc. is sometimes arbitrary. before there was a roa or soviet armenia i'm sure armenians played saz and didn't worry about whether this or that instrument is armenian, turkish, persian etc. just like before there was a field of linguistics people in our part of the world didn't think of languages - and therefore people - as being european or semitic. i mean c'mon, armenians are white europeans but assyrians are dark-skinned semites? i think what happened is probably there was a point in time in soviet armenia when people in the "ministry of culture" or whatever it was decided ok this is armenian, that is not. just like today with western armenian speakers being made to feel their armenian is incorrect/corrupted. for example somebody must have decided that 7/8, 9/8, and 10/8 are not armenian rhythms or something, because it seems like every armenian song from armenia is in 6/8 (which gets boring sometimes). and yet the armenian musicians in america who preserved the songs from their towns and villages in ottoman turkey do play songs in these rhythms. this shows that the gray areas between cultures get lost when you go from age of empires to age of nation states.

Edited May 16, 2007 by kumkap

[Zartonk]

You are probably thinking of the Tar. Mehrabian is a Tar player. Also remember that the word saz is Persian for instrument (lit. tool) and so in vernacular Armenian, saz can come mean any instrument. Edited May 16, 2007 by Zartonk

[kumkap]

well that is definitely a saz next to him in the video and he does play saz on that album, but yes he is principally a tar player. but what you said is actually what i was thinking, that saz in vernacular armenian probably meant any stringed instrument that is plucked, or maybe even any instrument.

[Johannes]

Arabs call saz as buzuk.While greeks call it buzuki. But greek buzuki differs comparing the anatolian saz. Why we are forgetting the genocide? This is the main reason of ignoring, the western culture of Armenia.

I have a monthly Armenian magazine where a մանրանկար մը պատճէնուած է: Մանրանկարին մէջ, կուսակրօն կղեր մը սազ կը նուագէ: Մանրանկարը 7-րդ դարէն մնացած է: Ըսուածին պէս. թերեւս «սազ» բառը պարսկերէն է: Արեւելահայերէնի մէջ կայ՝ «չի սազում», «սազում է» արտայայտութիւնը, որ առաջացած է «սազ» նուագարանի անունէն կը կարծեմ:

Չի սազում, այսինքն համաչափութիւն չի լինում Harmonia...

[hayemyes]

are there any well known armenian saz players? the reason i ask is it seems to be a strictly turkish thing, yet i've seen the word saz used in armenian poetry. are they referring to a different instrument maybe?

 

here are some examples:

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PtMu_TrwlCk

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=msP2dFbAKa4

 

the second video brings up another question i have: this song has an interesting rhythmic structure (compound meter of 3+3+4+5, 3+3+4+5, etc.). is there anything similar in armenian music? a dance like tamzara has a 9/8 rhythm (really a 4+5), but that's fairly common in anatolian music.

 

that rhythm in fact is simply a 3/4 or slowed 6/8 (6/8 divided by 2), according to me...i havent reviewed my musical theory for a while now, i might be wrong, but i think its that, its the same rythm used in other armenian songs, such as "ashxarhum sirel em kez", "mi gyank enk menk aprum", etc

[Zartonk]

Ըսուածին պէս. թերեւս «սազ» բառը պարսկերէն է: Արեւելահայերէնի մէջ կայ՝ «չի սազում», «սազում է» արտայայտութիւնը, որ առաջացած է «սազ» նուագարանի անունէն կը կարծեմ:

Չի սազում, այսինքն համաչափութիւն չի լինում Harmonia...

 

 

Բավական հետաքրքիր երաժշտական տէսակետ նվիրեցիք այս բառի օգտագորձման սկջբի մասին: Բայց պէտք է նկատի ունենալ որ ساز բառը պարսկերէնում նայեւ կարտահայտցնէ այլ նույն միկը որ կատարըւմ է անգլերէն function բառը: Մի խոսքով՝ «չի սազում»ը կարէլի է տարգմանել իբրէւ «չի աշխատում»:

[Zartonk]

that rhythm in fact is simply a 3/4 or slowed 6/8 (6/8 divided by 2), according to me...i havent reviewed my musical theory for a while now, i might be wrong, but i think its that, its the same rythm used in other armenian songs, such as "ashxarhum sirel em kez", "mi gyank enk menk aprum", etc

 

3/4 time is prevalent in Armenian music. Anatolian music in general is renowned for using complex rhythms.

[hayemyes]

3/4 time is prevalent in Armenian music. Anatolian music in general is renowned for using complex rhythms.

 

yes i know, but they also use 3/4 alot; modern turkish music has abandoned that, but classical, folk and azeri music still uses it...i dono if someone can confirm if the one in the video is 3/4

[kumkap]

yes i know, but they also use 3/4 alot; modern turkish music has abandoned that, but classical, folk and azeri music still uses it...i dono if someone can confirm if the one in the video is 3/4

 

it is definitely not in 3/4. it's as i said earlier up in the thread, 3+3+4+5, 3+3+4+5, etc. listen to it again and count it out.

[hayemyes]

it is definitely not in 3/4. it's as i said earlier up in the thread, 3+3+4+5, 3+3+4+5, etc. listen to it again and count it out.

 

well i think ur combination of 3+3+4+5 is just a repetition of the 3/4 (5 measures):

- the first 3/4 is ur first 3

- the second 3/4 is ur second 3

- ur 4+5 = 9, which is 3 times 3/4

 

i know that anatolian folk music has alot of crazy rhythms, such as the 10/8, 7/8, 12/8, but i really believe this one is a plain 3/4 in essence; of course, when u play a 3/4 u can have pauses and the same beat can be played in different ways...

[kumkap]

you are not wrong in what you're saying but this piece doesn't have the feel of something in basic 6/8 and i think if you try to play this piece just by counting 3's you'll get confused. listening to the bass tells you where the downbeats are but by simple arithmetic of course you are right. Edited May 16, 2007 by kumkap

[hayemyes]

you are not wrong in what you're saying but this piece doesn't have the feel of something in basic 6/8 and i think if you try to play this piece just by counting 3's you'll get confused. listening to the bass tells you where the downbeats are but by simple arithmetic of course you are right.

 

i agree that it doesnt feel like a traditional 3/4, but what im saying is if we were to have the score of this melody, the rhythm would simply be a 3/4...the place the notes are put, especially the bass notes gives u the feel that its another rhythm, but what im saying is u could play this song lets say on a keyboard if u put a 3/4 beat...it wont be written 15/x or smthn like that on the score...

also if u hit at the beginning of each measure on a bass sound (try knocking on the table at the beginning of each measure) in a 3/4 fashion ull be totally in the beat

[Anoushik]

I agree with kumkap. It makes more sense to say that it's a repetitive 3+3+4+5 cycle because of where the accents of the beats fall then to say that it's a 3+3+3+3+3 meter.

[Anoushik]

i agree that it doesnt feel like a traditional 3/4, but what im saying is if we were to have the score of this melody, the rhythm would simply be a 3/4...the place the notes are put, especially the bass notes gives u the feel that its another rhythm, but what im saying is u could play this song lets say on a keyboard if u put a 3/4 beat...it wont be written 15/x or smthn like that on the score...

also if u hit at the beginning of each measure on a bass sound (try knocking on the table at the beginning of each measure) in a 3/4 fashion ull be totally in the beat

I don't know how they write traditional Turkish music on the score, but with a Western transcription the time signature would constantly change. It'd be 3/4 for two measures, followed by a 4/4 time signature, followed by a 5/4 time signature, and this cycle would repeat continously throughout the piece. Actually, because of the speed of the piece, I'd say it makes more sense to put 3/8, 4/8, 5/8 instead.

[hayemyes]

I don't know how they write traditional Turkish music on the score, but with a Western transcription the time signature would constantly change. It'd be 3/4 for two measures, followed by a 4/4 time signature, followed by a 5/4 time signature, and this cycle would repeat continously throughout the piece. Actually, because of the speed of the piece, I'd say it makes more sense to put 3/8, 4/8, 5/8 instead.

 

but can u honestly imagine a score with 3 different time signatures on the same line and that on each line?

for instance a 3+3+3+3 beat is written 12/8 or 12/4 depending on waht were counting with...i can ask my music teacher about it, but according to what i remember if u can write a time signature that applies to all the song then its that time signature, then u adjust where u want the bass notes to be...i dnt see the point of switching time signatures and thus making the whole measure complex, even though we can totally play the tune on a 3/4 or 6/8 rhythm on a keyboard...the keyboard plays the beat continuously and doesnt care where the basses are, and if were able to play this song on it, then it means its written on a 3/4 or 6/8 time signature, i didnt have time to actually try it with my keyboard, but i have the impression that it will work.

i had an example in mind of a greek beat which was in fact a simple 4/4, however they played it in such a way that would make u think that its a totally crazy rhythm...unfortunately, i cant think of it right now, but ill try to get back to u on that

[hayemyes]

actually i dnt think its a complex measure like u said, i understand that the beat might sound weird, but pay attention to the pauses, they all fall at the same place, and thats at the end of the 3/4 time signature measure...in every song there are lags in the beat because of the fill ins...a fill in is not always in the same time signature as the main melody, however it is not written as a different time signature on a score, we just use silences n stuff to accomodate them...this is the same principle...the pauses are sometimes misplaced for an occidental score system, but to me it makes perfect sense to say this is a regular 3/4 or 6/8, or maybe even 3/8 rhythm...

ill try to record a keyboard beat on top of it at the same time when i have time...or play the drum manuyally on the keyboard with the same beat to give u an idea, which is easier

[hayemyes]

actually i took the time to record the drum part with my keybaord, but i gotta warn u i did it manually cuz i dnt have to record a complex beat with the tempo and everthing, but im sure ull get the idea...im able to play the same thing over and over again and it always fits into the rhythm, and what im playing is a 3/4 or 6/8 slowed, depending on how u count it, basically a rhythm that is often used in armenian...and the song superimposes perfectly on it...i must say i didnt put any drums int he beginning because it is an intro just like an intro in any other song that starts without a drum or percussion part...and sry for the quality i didnt realize my keyboard volume was pretty high, but the quality isnt fantastic i didnt get the time to arrange it...last point, i did a small mistake somewher in the middle, its not that i fell off the beat, i was just distracted, otherwise it would perfectly suit the melody...

heres the link:

 

http://www.mediafire.com/?4e2yxcgbjdm

[Anoushik]

but can u honestly imagine a score with 3 different time signatures on the same line and that on each line?

Of course! All of 20th century art music is basically based on different time signatures within the same piece

[hayemyes]

yes i know lol, but thats only when there are actually different time signatures...when u can write all of them on the same time signature no one would complicate matters like that...i know in armenian too there are some scores which have different time signatures, but what u guys are proposing is to have 2 time signatures 3/8, then one 4/8, then one 5/8 (i think those are the numbers) and then back to 2 x 3/8, etc.

when u change time signatures, normally its for small parts here an there, and theres no short distance pattern, however in our case all these fit on the same rhythm...

check out the file i uploaded with the keyboard

[Anoushik]

heres the link:

 

http://www.mediafire.com/?4e2yxcgbjdm

Uhm, how do I access it?