RemainFaithful Posted July 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2007 It is funny how correct the article is. If the Church Unites the Tashnags will lose a lot of power. In Fresno the ARF Branch tried to take the deed of the Church, and when the Hysoorp said no they in a sense kicked him out. But is it only the issue of the Tashnags? What about the Cilician and Echmiadzin priests? Will the Cilician Church lose its "power", and money as mentioned in the article? If the two Apostolic Armenian Churches are labeling each other to be a sect, then the case of the Armenian Evangelical Church is out of question. As far as I know, there was an attempt to closer the gaps between the Armenian Apostolic and the Armenian Evangelical Churches in the 1960s, but the efforts went in vain because of Church politics I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annannimusss Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 I will ask about the Evangelical Church thing in the 60's and 70's. The issue of priest's as far as I know is not a big deal. The ones from Echmiadzin in the west coast that I have talked to have said that we really need to combine. And I personally don't think that Echmiadzin would liquadate the assets of Cilicia. They almost reconciled when Vazgen CAtholicos died and the Cilician Catholicos became Echmiadzins Catholicos, but I have no idea what happened. I have never been able to get a strait answer from anyone, but I will ask the Armenian studies professer, and he should tell me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abass80 Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 They almost reconciled when Vazgen Catholicos died and the Cilician Catholicos became Echmiadzins Catholicos, but I have no idea what happened. I have never been able to get a strait answer from anyone, but I will ask the Armenian studies professor, and he should tell me. what happened next has been discussed in a topic in this forum but i don't remember in which one! Echmiadzin accepted the Catholicos of Cilicia Karekin I (after pressure from the then president Der Bedrosian) as a leader of the Church hoping that he well help in bridging the gap between the 2 Catholicosates! of course Karekin I did the exact opposite thing! Throughout the diaspora the tashnags have tried to take control of as many churches as they can! and i'm afraid that that will not change in the future simply because the tashnags don't think that they r doing anything wrong! they believe that in order for their party to survive and grow every measure is acceptable and should be taken! But the problem is not only the tashnags! They r taking over because in many cases there is nobody there to challenge them! Let me give u an example of what happened here in Greece @nger Sako! decades ago the tashnags took over the church from the echmiatznagans! they used force, they had the government's support because they labeled the ramgavars as communists (whenever i hear this i want to laugh! an extreme-left party accuses a center-right part of being communists) and to cut long things short they took over! whenever u talk with an older ramgavar or an echmiatznagan they complain that the tashnags used to beat them up and throw them out of the church! after hearing all these stories and getting tired from listening to them, one day i asked why they didn't hit back! i got no answer! u see sako tashnags took the churches because they simply could! nobody went against them! they were too afraid! that's why we can not only blame the tashnags! we know what they want to do and what they r capable of doing so we have 2 options either let them do it and shut up or take a stance against them and try to make them understand that what they r doing is not in the best interest of the armenian nation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahan Araradian Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 what happened next has been discussed in a topic in this forum but i don't remember in which one! Echmiadzin accepted the Catholicos of Cilicia Karekin I (after pressure from the then president Der Bedrosian) as a leader of the Church hoping that he well help in bridging the gap between the 2 Catholicosates! of course Karekin I did the exact opposite thing! Throughout the diaspora the tashnags have tried to take control of as many churches as they can! and i'm afraid that that will not change in the future simply because the tashnags don't think that they r doing anything wrong! they believe that in order for their party to survive and grow every measure is acceptable and should be taken! But the problem is not only the tashnags! They r taking over because in many cases there is nobody there to challenge them! Let me give u an example of what happened here in Greece @nger Sako! decades ago the tashnags took over the church from the echmiatznagans! they used force, they had the government's support because they labeled the ramgavars as communists (whenever i hear this i want to laugh! an extreme-left party accuses a center-right part of being communists) and to cut long things short they took over! whenever u talk with an older ramgavar or an echmiatznagan they complain that the tashnags used to beat them up and throw them out of the church! after hearing all these stories and getting tired from listening to them, one day i asked why they didn't hit back! i got no answer! u see sako tashnags took the churches because they simply could! nobody went against them! they were too afraid! that's why we can not only blame the tashnags! we know what they want to do and what they r capable of doing so we have 2 options either let them do it and shut up or take a stance against them and try to make them understand that what Guys, all this talk about Tashnags and Ramgavars is sort of funny. Do Ramgavars even *exist* anymore? If so, when/where do they meet (let's say near California)? I would like to attend to see their points of views. they r doing is not in the best interest of the armenian nation! then whose interest? Turkey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemainFaithful Posted July 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Shahan, shall I understand that you agree that the ARF has taken hold of the Cilician Church? I wish there was someone who knew more about the theological and ecclesiological issues that would rise when a Church is controlled by bodies that have other agendas rather than Christ's agenda. Why does the ARF control the Cilician Church, what do they gain from it? What about the Ramgavars, do they control any church within "their" regions? Is it normal for a Church to be governed by the Ramgavars, Hnchagians, Tashnags? The elected people who serve in the Church have their own affiliation, yes, but how much of that should be interfered within the Church. Won't the Church become another kind of "agoump"? These men and women ought to be azkayin, by all means, but not gousagtzagan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annannimusss Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) I to have a sad story to tell, that had a happy ending, then a sad one. In Zahle, Lebanon where my dads and part of my moms family was from. My dad was only a small boy when it happened but my Great Aunt remembers the day well. The Tashnags in town were going to try to steal the Church. So what my Great-Granpa and other community leaders did is get all the Armenian youth and people to lock arms and surround the Church to stop the Tashnags from coming in. My dad was inside the Church at this time because he was small. But my Great-Grandpa also had called the city police to help, and they to surrounded the Church. At this time there was a Church service held and at this service and we said the name of Vazgen Catholicos not the one in Antillias. The Tashnags were trying to hold a service and say the name of there Catholicos who was illegally elected by the way. There was only one Armenian Bishop there to ordain him and they had to use a Assyrian one. Or they had two and needed three I forgot the exact number. Anyway for a while there was always a policeman there to stand guard against the Tashnags from trying to steal the Church. At this point in time only Two or Three Churches would say Vazgen CAtholicos during the service, the one in Tripoli and another one I think. The church has since been stolen by the Tashnags, because they evetually became the majority in the town. Edited July 5, 2007 by SakoPasha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annannimusss Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) Here is the French one . I don't know if you can speak french or how updated this site is. http://lalettre.hayway.org/ Here is the Ramgavar english site, it is under construction. http://www.adl-ramgavar.org/newsletter/subscribe.php Also they have many events my Aunts and Uncles go to, and the Armenian Rights Council-United States is there monthly publication, I think. I have it in front of me right now. Edited July 5, 2007 by SakoPasha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annannimusss Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) AN APPEAL TO ALL ARMENIANS Armenian verson During recent years, a number of Armenian individuals have considered themselves “authorized” to establish relations with organizations or individuals directly affiliated to Turkish authorities, with the pretext of “Consolidating relationships between Armenia and Turkey .” The Armenian Democratic Liberal (Ramgavar) Party is fundamentally and categorically opposed to all such arbitrary and unauthorized action, regardless of whoever the Armenian individual(s) may be. The exigency right of the Armenian Cause (Hay Tad) is a highly political issue belonging exclusively to Western Armenians. And therefore, all action taken in this respect must be approved and supervised solely through the political parties in the Diaspora. Consequently, any relationship with Turkish authorities or any subordinate group should be established by the approval and instruction of appropriate political parties in order that coordination and consistency prevail. It should also be emphatically outlined that the sole aim and motivation of all types of relations and negotiation with the Turks serve the highest interests of the Armenian nation. The Armenian Democratic Liberal (Ramgavar) party is directly opposed to any and all “peacemaking” action undertaken through private individual(s) or groups. Considering this kind of initiative to be extremely harmful, blameworthy and perfidious, the ADLP will not spare any means to unmask and to call to account all wrongdoers. In this respect, we appeal to all our compatriots to convey any and all information concerning any Armenian individual or group trying to extend any level of relationship with the Turks. Our e-mail address is: watchdogcommittee@ramgavar.org At this fatefully decisive point in the pursuit of Armenian Cause, it is absolutely unacceptable to tolerate petty and ignorant betrayal of our nation for the sake of material or other gain by trampling the highest interests of our nation. Armenian Democratic Liberal Party (Ramgavar) http://www.ramgavarparty.org/home.html Edited July 5, 2007 by SakoPasha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemainFaithful Posted July 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Sako, it is not about the Tashnags or Ramgavars controlling the Church, but that the Church be governed by its people, who believe in Christ and will spread the good news that Christ has risen for all mankind, so all those who believe in Him, shall be saved. The Church is not a place for political, gousagtzagan or personal agendas to be served in. Unfortunately, this seems to be the status quo, to which no armenian apostolic would argue against, because this is the way every armenian apostolic has been raised. Only recently, groups of armenian apostolic believers, who are reading the Bible, are finding that there a lot of issues that need to discussed within their Churches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annannimusss Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 (edited) I know, the Ramgavars don't have anything to do with the Church. But the Tashnags are putting there nose where it does not belong. They should keep themselves out of Church business. Edited July 7, 2007 by SakoPasha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 (edited) Why does the ARF control the Cilician Church, what do they gain from it? What about the Ramgavars, do they control any church within "their" regions? Is it normal for a Church to be governed by the Ramgavars, Hnchagians, Tashnags? The elected people who serve in the Church have their own affiliation, yes, but how much of that should be interfered within the Church. Won't the Church become another kind of "agoump"? These men and women ought to be azkayin, by all means, but not gousagtzagan. The ARF doesn't exactly "control" the Cilician Church. The ARF and the Armenian Catholicosate of Cilicia complementarize each other in order to create successful and sustainable Armenian communities throughout the world. That's how it is everywhere; from Beirut, to Montreal, to LA. It makes for pretty solid mini-societies. This is what has made them so successful over the years, and this is why the other Armenian political parties of the diaspora have evaporated from the scene. I don't see what's wrong about this... If the others can't do it, why shouldn't the tashnags do it themselves? Besides, it's not like the ramgavars wouldn't be able to pray in the church... Anyone can, even non-Armenians and non-Christians. Դաշնակցութեան դրօշին տակ միացէք ու վերջանանք ալ... Edited July 7, 2007 by Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahan Araradian Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 (edited) Shahan, shall I understand that you agree that the ARF has taken hold of the Cilician Church? I wish there was someone who knew more about the theological and ecclesiological issues that would rise when a Church is controlled by bodies that have other agendas rather than Christ's agenda. Why does the ARF control the Cilician Church, what do they gain from it? What about the Ramgavars, do they control any church within "their" regions? Is it normal for a Church to be governed by the Ramgavars, Hnchagians, Tashnags? The elected people who serve in the Church have their own affiliation, yes, but how much of that should be interfered within the Church. Won't the Church become another kind of "agoump"? These men and women ought to be azkayin, by all means, but not gousagtzagan. It's not a crime for a person to be BOTH a member of the church and a political party!!! If it so happens that members of the church are also members of a political party, then it is what it is: members of the church are also members of a political party! It DOESN'T mean the political party is controlling the Church! It's like being a member of two book clubs; do you therefore conclude that one book club controls the other? How do you want people to be "azgayin" without being involved in an organization with a NAME as in ARF?? All organizations, at the end of the day, will have a name, even an "azgayin" one. You want Armenians to be "Armenians" without being members of Armenian organizations! Edited July 7, 2007 by Shahan Araradian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annannimusss Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 The thing is that I don't want to see the Armenian Church ran by political parties for political gains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahan Araradian Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) The thing is that I don't want to see the Armenian Church ran by political parties for political gains. What "political" gains? Do you think the ARF is an American political party? The ARF really ISN'T a "political party." Think about it: what politicians is it bringing into ANY government (with the RECENT exception of Armenia and Lebanon). The ARF really is a SOCIAL organization, with a network of branches in Armenian communities throughout the world. It shouldn't be surprising to you that the Armenian individuals who partake in the community organization known as the ARF (along with all of its children/sister organizations) are also members of another Armenian organization known as the Armenian church: people are socially active in their community tend to be in more than one community organization... So let's quit this non-sense of ARF being a political party with "political gains." The ARF is composed of members of the Armenian community all working towards the collective well-being of the Armenian community. Every community organization has a name. And if you're part of one, then -- like it or not -- you'll be part of an organization with a name, like ARF or ՀՄԸՄ or ANC or AGBU or UAS or AYF. Edited July 8, 2007 by Shahan Araradian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annannimusss Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Your not getting the point. The ARF should not control the Antillias Church. Simple as that. Yes my family are Ramgavars and used to be on the Parish Council, but they did not try to control the Echmiadzin Church so that the Ramgavars would become stronger and more dominant. They ran the church as a spiritual institution, not as a political one. And ran it for well being of the church and the people there. The Tashnags try to steal churches and take deeds of churches, is that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemainFaithful Posted July 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 The ARF was not able to control the Armenian Evangelical Church, which still remains at an equal distance from all the Armenian political parties, mainly the Hnchagians, the Tashnags and the Ramgavars. And yes, the Armenian Evangelical Church or any other person can be azkayin and be independant without adhering to any political party. I know of a group in Australia, which is promoting Armenian culture and values, without being affiliated to any political agendas. The issue of the Church is that it cannot and should not be governed by the ARF. Yes, there can be a cooperation in keeping the Armenian communities, which I'm sure almost all the Armenian denominations (Apostolic, Catholic, Evangelical) are trying to keep. But keeping the Armenian community together is not the sole purpose of the Church. The Church cannot and should not side with this party against that, or else it would be discriminating and dividing, rather than joining the community. The Church is not the building only! The Church is the group of believers who come together to worship Christ. The Church is not only a social/sport organization, like any other HMEM, HMM organizations. Christ is the head of the Church and all those who believe and work for Him are His people. The Church (i.e. the believers) has a commandment to love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemainFaithful Posted July 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 Here's my question: What is the agenda of the Church? If the agenda of the Church is based on the Bible, do you think that the agendas of any political political, in this case the ARF, would coincide and complement with that of the Bible's? Then again, how much sanctification/spirituality/Christendom does the ARF encourage among the people? The Church believes in and preaches humility, humbleness, perseverance, being kind and meek; forgiving and loving your enemy. Does the ARF encourage these characteristics among its members? Where do the ARF's and the Church's agendas complement each other and where do they depart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahan Araradian Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 The Church is not only a social/sport organization, like any other HMEM, HMM organizations. Christ is the head of the Church and all those who believe and work for Him are His people. The Church (i.e. the believers) has a commandment to love. I'm glad that the Armenian church isn't filled with this BS. The Armenian church is more of a NATIONAL institution. If you believe that Christ BS, then only "God" can help you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahan Araradian Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) Here's my question: What is the agenda of the Church? If the agenda of the Church is based on the Bible, do you think that the agendas of any political political, in this case the ARF, would coincide and complement with that of the Bible's? Armenian church is more than the Bible. Armenians have their OWN traditions that are independent from the Bible that the church preserves. We have our own holy book and don't need to translate WORD FOR WORD everything written in the Bible! Take its good parts, but remove all of the other BS in it. After all, the Bible was written by HUMANS, not by "God". Then again, how much sanctification/spirituality/Christendom does the ARF encourage among the people? Nationalism and rationality is what it encourages. And non-reliance on "God" to solve the Armenian question. The Church believes in and preaches humility, humbleness, perseverance, being kind and meek; forgiving and loving your enemy. All of that Bullshit will destroy a race and even man himself. "Kind and meek" will lead you to become the slave of another man. "Humility" is good when you are powerful, but destructive when you are not! "forgiving and loving your enemy" --> That is just completely wrong! Look: most of the Bible (as most human works) have been produced so that one man can more easily control another man. Does the ARF encourage these characteristics among its members? Humility when in power: yes. Serving others (your people): yes. Being involved in community: yes. "perseverance" : Absolutely! (the entire struggle to create Armenia was nothing but perseverance...) "being kind and meek": yes (it falls under community-building and being active in Armenian community organizations) --> but it doesn't mean be kind and meek absolutely... But "forgiving and loving your enemy": absolutely NOT! Never! It's a jungle out there... If you're not smart and don't fend for yourself, you'll be swallowed up, and "God" will never save you. There is also no "after life". Everything is only in the here and now. The "after life" once again, is a tool used by one man to control another; and it is the SAME tool used by Al Qaeda leaders to get people to do martyrdom operations -- with the promise of a good 40 virgins in heaven... Where do the ARF's and the Church's agendas complement each other and where do they depart? The Church should instill some amount of "meaning of life"/spirituality and "social norms"/social contract type of knowledge, but should also preserve the Armenian identity... Edited July 8, 2007 by Shahan Araradian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahan Araradian Posted July 8, 2007 Report Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) Your not getting the point. The ARF should not control the Antillias Church. Simple as that. Yes my family are Ramgavars and used to be on the Parish Council, but they did not try to control the Echmiadzin Church so that the Ramgavars would become stronger and more dominant. They ran the church as a spiritual institution, not as a political one. And ran it for well being of the church and the people there. The Tashnags try to steal churches and take deeds of churches, is that right? You are funny... What if the "tashnags" are the Armenian people? How many Ramgavars are there? The bulk of the social services in Armenian communities are provided by ARF-affiliated organizations, because they ARE the people, and not some elitist-group. ARF-affiliated organizations are as "azkayin" as they get, because they are run BY the people and FOR the people. Anyways, this conversation is going nowhere. That's all I have to say on this topic. Edited July 8, 2007 by Shahan Araradian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annannimusss Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 Most people are not in parties anymore. And they are not the Armenian people, just a part of it. There is no afterlife-Heaven is nonsense. Even though our church belives first that you go to a sort of Paradise until Jesus comes again and then we are taken to heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemainFaithful Posted July 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 With all the respect to all the different views about the Church, however, much of what you mentioned Shahan, the sources of which I would like to see, unless they're your personal viewpoints. I would be glad if someone would explain about the Armenian Apostolic Church's stand and how the Church perceives itself to function. I'm hesitant to say that it functions the way Shahan mentioned above. Shahan you say: "We have our own holy book" Which holy book? There's only one holy book, which is the Bible. I'm not sure there is another one. The rest are books by the Fathers of the Mother Church. Then again, I didn't mention about heaven existing or not. And as a side note, the Jehovah's Witnesses say that there is neither heaven nor hell. Heaven and hell are here on earth. As for "Forgiving and Reconciliation", Here's a recent story regarding the Church and priesthood: "The hardest thing to do if you have been victimized is to forgive those who have victimized you and your family. But that is what is happening as an Armenian priest, Father Vazken Movsesian, and a Rwandan pastor, Benjamin Kayumba, have joined together to preach a message of forgiveness." Source -> LA TIMES But coming back to the issue of ARF controlling the Mother Church, we see that there are different positions and attitudes that is hard to reconcile. The ARF has a stand and the Church has another stand. Which one should have the last say? Should only one of them have the last say, or can both have their stand, without being labeled as traitor or a lesser Armenian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annannimusss Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 The ARF does not control tehe mother Church and it will never control the mother Church. But they do control the Antillias-Cilician Church. There is only one holy book the Bible. And what stance would you like to see explained about the Church? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shahan Araradian Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 (edited) Shahan you say: "We have our own holy book" Which holy book? There's only one holy book, which is the Bible. I'm not sure there is another one. The rest are books by the Fathers of the Mother Church. Նարեկ is one. I wouldn't get caught up too much in religion. Like I mentioned earlier, religion has historically been used by one man to enslave another (it's still being done in many parts of the world and many parts of the U.S., too -- e.g. George Bush even invokes religion to have American soldiers fight for the cause of global corporate domination -- including George Bush's and Dick Cheney's corporations, as well as for Zionism, as as the fictional "bin Laden" uses it to create "jihad holy warriors". More "sophisticated" societies, though, now use consumerism to control people and employ the most powerful "Bible" yet: television.) If you're going to be religious, at least choose some Armenian holy books. "Playboy's Interview with Ayn Rand," Playboy, March 1964: PLAYBOY: "Has no religion, in your estimation, ever offered anything of constructive value to human life?" RAND: "Qua religion, no—in the sense of blind belief, belief unsupported by, or contrary to, the facts of reality and conclusions of reason. Faith, as such, is extremely detrimental to human life: it is the negation of reason." Edited July 10, 2007 by Shahan Araradian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemainFaithful Posted July 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 I agree that religion can be used to control. However, political parties also control, as well as governments. There are cases where the ARF controlled the reason of the people and used threats too. If you don't do what they ask of you, you will be disregarded and "excommunicated" from the community. This is not only ARF's case though, but still it doesn't mean it's acceptable. If in the religion, in this case in Christianity, one man is controlling the people, in the ARF's case, there are group of people who are controlling. It's not about the Church or the political party, but who is governing the Church and the party. Both can be used as a means of control. If you're going to be religious, at least choose some Armenian holy books. Are you trying to say that the Armenian Apostolic Church does not regard the Bible to be holy? N.B. I asked you a question in my last post in the last paragraph, for which I received no reply. As for your post Sako, when I use the term "Mother Church", I use it as a respect to the Armenian Apostolic Church, which is still the mother Church of the Armenian Evangelical Church, and they do not deny their root, nor their Armenianness. I asked Sako about the functionality of the Armenian Apostolic Church and how it perceives its mission to be. Is it the way Shahan mentioned in the above posts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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