Eastern Armenian vs. Western Armenian

[MJ]

This note is perhaps an invitation for Arpa to give his input on the subject.

 

I am far not a linguist but , yet, have a strongly held opinion on it (surprise-surprise).

 

There is no such language as “Russian-Armenian.” Neither there is “Turkish-Armenian” language. There have never existed such languages.

 

Armenian language has two major branches – Eastern Armenian and Western-Armenian. Each of them consists of a large number of subdialects. If I am not mistaken, only on the territory of the current Republic of Armenia there are more than 60 active subdialects. The picture is not much different for the Western Armenian branch.

 

Anyway, eastern Armenian has nothing to do with Russian language – it has never had any relation. Literary Eastern Armenian language (one can call it Yerevanian dialect in our days) is a gorgeous language with perfect grammar and structure, revealing the depth of the richness of Armenian language, overall. However, it can frequently be spoken badly – with a repulsive slang, with borrowed deformed Russian, Turkish, Persian and Arabic words.

 

If someone is saying that he/she doesn’t understand this or that slang – it is not-surprising. But if one is saying he/she doesn’t understand “Russian-Armenian,” I’d say “go get your attitude fixed!”

[Arpa]

First off, we must all swear on our scouts' honor to stay within the parameters of the discussion. This may be one of the most explosive subjects. I have witnessed many debates about the subject and I have also seen many friends become unfriendly. The reason for this is usually from a lack of understanding of the subject and the spirit of the debate. It invariably turns into a contest and a oneupmanship. Insults are exchanged, one calling the other Turkish-Armenian and the other calling them Russian-Armenian, this kind of Armenian or that. Terms like Turkish-Armenian whether applied to a language or a person may be the oxymoron of ages, even more so than a term like Judeo-Christian. Which is it, Turkish or Armenian, Judaic or Christian?

 

Don't feel guilty MJ. I had already observed that the subject had reached a point of no return, as mentioned above, fists were already being clenched ready to throw the punches. I was contempleating to intervene.

 

Neither am I.

However, as always, this debate is started and led into an impasse by people, for no fault of theirs', who have a limited command of the language (I said "language", singular). It is a known fact that those who have a relatively good command of the Armenian have very little trouble to read and speak either "dialect" (more about this word).

 

[MJ]

Arpa,

 

I agree with you, largely.

 

I don’t believe neither of the sides, when they claim they don’t understand Eastern Armenian or Western Armenian. That tells me only that they don’t understand Armenian sufficiently or, yes, they have obnoxious attitude. Anyone who has average understanding of either of the versions (following your example and invitation, I will call them versions), can, with a little effort, understand both. I can read with equal ease Odian or Charents, and can speak equally convincingly both versions, for example. Moreover, I admire both of the versions – each within its own perimeters.

 

While I understand your comments about the “existence” of Turkish-Armenian, Arab-Armenian or Eastern-Armenian languages, I guess that is what I am protesting against.

For example, "....Komunistakan Partiayi andam 1921-its" may be replaced by “.. Hamainavar gusagtsutian andam 1921-its,” and "Wallahi k@sem kez, Arabakan Hayeren goyutiun chuni. Ches havadar? Yallah, ertank" can be replaced by “Iravmamb, kekzi khavastiatsnem vor Arabagan Haieren lezu me goyutiun chuni. Ardiok ches havadar? Shad lav, ertank, hima,” etc.

 

I also agree that sometimes we end up with ridiculous translations and phony words. One of the worst such examples I have considered always to be the word “inknatir” in Eastern Armenian, while there was a perfect substitute for it – “odanav.”

 

On the subject of the two words you mentioned above, “qnarergakan” and "nyardaayin," I think they are both widely used in the written language and are recognized to be the genuine versions of "lirikakan" and "nervayin." Obviously, the last two are “bastardizations” of the previous two, and I think they are implants into the oral tradition from the professional literature. However, there cannot be two opinions, I think, as to which one should be used under the circumstances of adequate respect towards the Armenian language.

 

I also have a comment about the orthography of Eastern Armenian. It is well known that it is resulted from the excesses of the 1920s. If one can call his child “Piatiletka,” it shouldn’t be surprising to wind up with the current orthography. There is an opinion that it was an intermediate step towards abandoning the Armenian alphabet and transiting to the Cyrillic one, while calling the Masdotsian Alphabet “Anti-Soviet.” From what I understand, the main advocate of this transition is still occupying a prominent position in the Armenian academic circles. There is no question that it has generated mess. I remember the debate on returning to the Mashdotsian alphabet being a very intensive one in late 1980s. At certain periods, I have also been a supporter of that notion. However, I have come to believe that it is not an easy step to be taken under the current circumstances. New textbooks have to be printed in Armenia, teachers have to be trained, and entire generation of people educated otherwise has to be thrown into yet another mess, etc. Eventually, a lot of money has to be spent to provide for the transitional period. Hopefully, some day… But I recognize that it would’ve brought the two versions of Armenian closer to each other.

 

But, on the other hand, I don’t believe in the future of Western-Armenian. Not because I think it has less legitimacy, but rather there is less practical merit in spending the very limited resources on something which is doomed to expire due to the mere fact of the Diaspora being doomed to extinction in not more than a couple of generations, in my view. There is a rational “business” decision to be made, here, I think.

 

OK, OK... The problem is indeed not an easy one...

[Sip]

I didn't fully understand this sentence. Are you saying the diaspora IS doomed to extinction in a few generations or the opposite?

[Sip]

Alright, after re-reading that sentence several times and running it through my logic analyzer, I think you are saying that the Diaspora is doomed to extinction.

 

I have no doubt that a large part may be doomed. But I don't think the whole diaspora (as a group) is doomed to that fate, especially where Armenians are concerned. Just look at the barska- and lebanona- hyes. They have been around for certainly a LOT of generations.

 

And the Diaspora we have here in LA ... I don't seem the extincting (<--- how's that for a word) anytime soon!

[MJ]

I wonder what was the difficult part to comprehand in that sentence?

 

There has existed nothing like "lebanona- hyes" prior to the Genocide and that segment of Diaspora has only a couple of generations of history, overall, doesn't it?

 

As far as "barska-hyes" are concerned, while it is hard not to see that they are a unique phenomenon in the history of Armenian Diaspora (the only surviving segment of Armenian Diaspora ever), perhaps it is so until they moved out of Iran.

 

Say "You are Welcome" to Nairi, please.

[MJ]

Thank you for this incredible insight.

[Sip]

The problem was probably on my end. Years of exposure to, and "training" in, the arts of "simlicity in expression" (i.e. context free languages) has left me somewhat at a loss when I encounter colorful language and complex sentences ... But I did eventually figure it out

 

By the way, although I may not agree with you on the ultimate fate of the diaspora, I do agree that the resources are very limited and they should be managed wisely as you propose (although I wouldn't completely exclude the Diaspora).

 

For example, here at UCLA (library), we have one the finest collections of Armenian "stuff" in the world, outside of Armenia (not sure on the rankings in the world, but it is the best in the USA). I hear we even have a large collection of handwritten manuscripts from the middle ages!!! Also, the Armenian department is slowly flourishing into one heck of a forum for experts and scholars in the Armenian language (among other things). Now that, I would say, is pretty impressive for the Diaspora, wouldn't you agree?

 

Beste Nairi, u bent welkom

[MJ]

I think the UCLA professionals don't have much to do with the overall evolution of Diaspora. They will exist probably way after the extinction of Diaspora - if there will be sources of financing for their endeavors.

 

If the history of Armenian Diaspora is indicative for its future at all, I think this, itself, implies that the Diaspora is there to expire.

[nairi]

I think any (modern) linguist would argue that all languages, varieties and dialects are worthy of study, and that no language, variety or dialect, standardized or not, is superior or inferior to another. As such, a linguist would have called this thread "Eastern Armenian AND Western Armenian", not "Eastern Armenian VS. Western Armenian", simply because there is neither competition, nor contradiction between the two.

 

My opinion: both varieties (of orthography) should continue to exist and evolve.

 

Sipan jan, sehr gut!

 

MJ jan, you're welcome.

[Boghos]

Armenian is one language. I completely agree that the apparent difficulty in communication that exists between speakers of Western and Eastern variety is due essentially to limited knowledge of the language.

 

It should be kept in mind that many diasporan Armenians have had only limited formal education in Armenian or even none at all. When you combine that with the inevitable influence of the host country you get Arabic words, English words, Portuguese words and so on. I think there is nothing surprising here.

 

Languages are living entities. We cannot expect them not to be influenced by the prevailing mainstream culture or cultures. So, it has been Russian in the case of SSRA. It appears to me that the main difference between E. and W. Armenian is the decay in grammar quality in the diaspora.

 

In some countries, notably France, there has been an effort to "preserve" the language. As far as I understand this has brought limited results. But again it should be no surprise. Languages evolve, or change if you prefer, in a very chaotic manner. Languages should not be preserved, they should be used.

 

Perhaps in the not so distant future the ROA will be able to help improving language use and bridge the various gaps. Once ROA writers get more press, TV improves, cinema reappears, magazines and newspapers evolve, segments of the diaspora will be very receptive.

 

But as I have also said several times before together with MJ, the diaspora is a temporary phenomenon.

 

PS: What language has three words for telephone ?

 

[ October 01, 2002, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[Arpa]

Very true!

Institutions and the community are two separate entitities. An institution may be on a remote island with nary a speaker nearby. Take the Mekhitarians e.g. They have not only lasted over 300 years but they have also singlehandedly preserved and enriched the language when either Esatern or Western Armenia were on the verge of totally losing it, and all this happened when there was no Italian Armenian community (diaspora) so to speak. An institution like the UCLA and others can be likened to an English language institution in India or Zambia. We know well that the mother institution for the English Language is in London and in our case in Erevan. By the same token we will not knock UCLA and otehrs down just as we will be eternally indebted and grateful to St. Lazar Island.those institutions will survive long after the respective communities have vanished or totally forgotten their native tongue. They would still have a valuable mission of catering to non-Armenians and linguists of shapes and colors. They will also act surrogates lobbyists and educators (read propagandists).

[Arpa]

Tsk, tsk MJ. Shame on you

Didn't we swear on our scouts' honor to not compare and pit one version over the other? I do concede that there can be no discussion of this subject without lapsing into arguments as to how the western Armenians bastardaized our orthography and pronunciation, and how the Soviets corrupted it. The purpose of this debate should be to find a common ground, and there is much more that we agree than we disagree.

 

We should take one item at a time and concentrate on it.

1. Orthography

2. Pronunciation

3. TRANSLITERATION

 

I again typed the latter in the upper case as I had done in my first post. The reason for that maybe twofold. It may be the easiest to tackle and more importantly it is the immediate cause of our discontent. When some of our correspondents expressed the fact that they could not read Armenian with Latin characters they may have had a point. Even though in theory there may be several official methods of transliteration in practice it seems like we have 8 million opinions about it.

Some of us would spell "grape" as "khaghogh", others as "xaghogh" then there are those whose name shall remain secret will spell it as "xaror".

 

With Boghos' indulgence we will use him as "laboratory animal". BTW, Boghos, I'm sure that you know Boghos, Poghos, Paulos, Paulus. Pavghos, Pavghik means small. No one knows this except the Marashtsis and the Zeituntzis. In their provincial "bolos/boloz" means child. See? I lapsed. I should have spelled it as "polos/poloz". Do you also see that many Greek patrynimic surnames end in "poulos" or some variety thereof such as Spiropoulos? It means son of or "little" Spiro.

 

Coming back to Boghos. An Eastern Armenian would have transliterated it as Poghos since it is from the Mesropian "PE" (as in cha pe je). It makes sense since it is from the original Greek Paulos. This is where we lose it, this is where it hits the fan. Western Armenians had lost all the nuances of the Mesropian sounds, even if they had transliterated Poghos correctly they pronounce it as if written with the letter "ben" as in Ayb BEN Gim, hence the western version of Boghos. (We will talk about the "gh" v "L" too). An opposite of this happened again due to the western Armenian corruption of the sounds. I have written about this some time back. Whereas "baron" is a relatively recent entry to our language it went through the same evolution as Poghos only this time in reverse. When first borrowed it was written as "baron" but since the second latter of the Arm. Alphabet had already been corrupted to sound as "P" and in reverse the "pe" as in "ben" it was written as pe-ayb-re-o-n and pronounced like ben-ayb-re-o-n and this, in reverse transliteration sometimes ends up as "paron". Another example would be "barev barekam". Westerners will transliterate this (phonetically, i.e as they hear it with their corrupted ears) as "parev paregam".

 

This much for now.

Remeber!

We are not comparing one aginst the other as to which is better etc.

And also remember that this first installment is about TRANSLITERATION and not orthography or pronunciation, in a way it may be the latter as most amateur transliteration is based on the sound as one hears it.

 

Inclosing let me say that I may be considered as a "born-again" as I also, at one time wished that we drop all consonants that sounded the same. But there is a reason for this madness. Mesrop designed all thos letters for a reason, they are to be pronounce as intended. Western Armenians pronounce all the consonants with equal intensity while easterners although not perfect do distinguish between say gim, ken and qe, ts as in tsoren, dz as in dzouk and ts as in tsaghik.

[sen_Vahan]

I think we have russian armenian, arabic armenian,etc. as long as we have russian armenians, arabic armenians,etc. It is natural that a devided and subdevided nation has many dialects.

The unity among people gives a 'united' language, russian as an example. Bringing two versions of armenian (w. e.) closer means in my opinion bringing closer two 'nations'.

 

As I mentioned some other time I met a lot of fellow armenians here in the USA and maybe 95% don't speak the language at all or know just how to say several things. My first impression when I came to the US and met armenians here - we are different since there is a long distance btw us and that distance is the language. And not because they speak the W type but simply because they don't speak at all..

 

The W dialect is beautiful but it disappeares slowly in diaspora maybe because the diaspora does disappear.. If all the armenians here talk the W armenian well that will be great and it may stay separate from E armenian if people want so. But the problem is that either people don't want or they can't or something else I don't know.

 

This topic began I guess with hagarag claiming that he does not understand Mosjan's rusahayeren...I think everybody who knows one of the versions well will certainly understand the other one.

[Twilight Bark]

I am no expert, so I'll try not to exceed my bounds.

 

And my apologies to those who know more, and who know better. Of those, there are doubtless many.

 

I agree with the theory that the mutual intelligibility depends strongly on one's command of any flavor of Armenian. Eastern Armenian speakers usually have no trouble understanding Western Armenian speakers, since they have grown up immersed in the language, exposed to it in all possible contexts, 24 hours a day. The difficulty is experienced mostly by Western Armenian speakers with a limited competence even in their own flavor of Armenian.

 

I agree that the differentiation of sounds, competently stated by Arpa as usual, is a feature of Eastern Armenian that Western Armenian speakers should be envious of. I also agree that the ortography must be unified, and that much of Soviet-induced changes were unnecessary.

 

On having many words for the same concepts, I say "the more the merrier". Instead of expunging the language of what we personally might think are "weird" words, structures, or grammatical rules, I say let's start merging the two flavors. Over time, "redundant" words and grammatical usages can take on subtly different meanings, enriching the language. Witness the remarkable expressive power of the hopelessly messy English language. I doubt that a Shakespeare would be produced with a tidy, economical language.

 

Twilight Bark

[nairi]

The official term for "version" is "variety" btw.

[nairi]

Thank you Sipan.

[MJ]

Born to be bad...Actually...I was born naked...

[Harut]

just to make a point...

there are words in Armenian,(let's take the word mentioned above by MJ for example: "odanav") that are pronounced in EA the same way as they are pronouced in WA.

 

even if it ("odanav") is spelled O-Da-Ayb-n-a-v, it is still pronounced as "otanav".

 

and there are many more such words.

Hakop(spelled: Hakob), ot(spelled: od), antam(spelled: andam), .......

[TigrannesIII]

agreed. my only problem with the Eastern dialect from Armenia and Russia (i.e. Armenians in Moscow, not Yerevan) is the 'reformed' usage Armenian alphabet. For example, the word hayeren should be written ho-ayp-hi-yech-re-eh-nu, where as my Hayasdantsi friends would omit the 'eh' and write two 'yech'-es. Another example is a word like 'yerazhshdoutiun'- the direct tranliteration from Eastern Armenian would be 'yerazhshdoutyoun'. A final example would be the name 'Hagop/Hakob'- the first letter historically is the 'hi' which makes an 'h' sound when it's at the beginning of a word. The Eastern Armenian only utilizes the 'ho' (h) whenver there is an 'h' sound.

 

I read in an article by a professor in Armenia that Sourp Mesrob is most likely rolling over in his grave if he saw the way his alphabet was being used today.

 

Take this all with a grain of salt, I dont even speak Armenian. Hayeren chem khosir gam yes chem khosoum hayeren. Yalla, tsdesoutiun; davai, hajogh.

[joseph]

Very interesting,please keep going on,i love this i am learning something hear " GOD BLESS ARMENIA AND THE ARMENIANS " . Including Hagarag.

[Boghos]

Talking about transliteration in an awkward way:

 

I think it is clear that increasing education in Russian was part of Stalin´s homo sovieticus. But is there any credence to an alleged plan to replace the Armenian alphabet with cyrillic during Stalin ?

[MJ]

I don't know how much validity is in that allegation.

 

I have heard this opinion from an employee of the Institute of Language of the Academy of Sciences of Armenia, who at the time was an employee of the very person who had authored the change of Eastern Armenian orthography in 20s.