Need Help Translating

[MosJan]

indz petq en iys yergeri anvanumneri Angleren tarberakner@

 

Adanayi Vorb kam Adanayi kotorats -

Tariner -

Dle Yaman - chem kartsum sa Angleren lini

Qele Laow - Qele Laow Qele Yertanq mer yergir

Zinwori yerg - Trcheyi mtqov tun

 

Shnorhakal em Naxapes

[hayemyes]

Adanayi Kotorats - The Tragedy of Adana

Tariner - Years

Dle Yaman - I'm sure there is I knew it before but cant remember, ill check

Kele Lao - Rise, My Son

Zinvori Yerg - Soldier's Song

[Arpa]

Originally posted by MosJan:

 

MosJan wrote:

indz petq en iys yergeri anvanumneri Angleren tarberakner@

Adanayi Vorb kam Adanayi kotorats -

Adana Lament or Adana Massacre

Tariner -

Depends on the context. I don't know which one this is. The title may best be composed from the spirit of the poem/song. Otherwise it simply means "Years". To make it more poetic one may translate it it as Those Were the Years.

Dle Yaman - chem kartsum sa Angleren lini

This is highly controversial. See below.

Qele Laow - Qele Laow Qele Yertanq mer yergir

Qele means walk as in Komitas' "Qele qele qelqid mernem"- Walk, walk I die for your walk. Wele also is used as "come". In the above title it may be translated; Come Lao, Come Let's go to Our Land. As to "lao", this is also controversial, as in the case of Dle Yaman it is highly probable that they are loaned from Kurdish. Some time ago somebody translated "lao" to mean (my)child. Correct! As it is used in the song. Mother singing lullaby to her infant son and hoping he will grow up to be a hero.

"lao" is not found in any dictionary, my suspicion that it may be Kurdish, however, there was a time when we used the word as euphemism for "lakot", i.e shan zavak. Wait! Don't fly the handle yet. Lakot is in fact commonly used to mean "shan zavak" but it can also used to mean something less insulting and endearing as "puppy". In fact Armenians use terms like "shan lakot" or "shunshanordi" as terms of endearment than insult(depending on the context and circumstances. If we assume that "lao" is a contraction of lakot then we get an extra bonus since "lakot" regardless of its common usage is also applied to offspring of other beasts such as lions, even though we have a specific word for that "koryun".

Shal we translate "Zatir Lao" as "Wake up my Lions' Cub"?

Zinwori yerg - Trcheyi mtqov tun

My Heart Flies Home

Shnorhakal em Naxapes

Dle Yaman.

As above, my suspicion is that it is from the Kurdish as neither of the words are in any Armenian dictionaries. The phrase may not even have a plausible meaning, that it is just an exclammation, specially the "yaman" part. We use "aman" (from the Turkish?)as an expression of exasperation and despair. However the Turks use the word "yaman" to mean strong, terrible, horrible, and we use it almost in the same sense, more often to mean "cruel" as in the following song; Sare@ kanach khotov Yaman Yar, Sirt@s liqn e karotov, Yaman Yar, Yar@s intsnits bez arats Yaman Yar, Tun k@ga handi hotov Yaman Yar. Yaman Yar=Cruel Lover. As to "dle" there may one explanation. It is not found in any dictionary but there is "doul", another variation of "toul/tuyl" as in "tuy tur", "let(me)". Could it be that dle is verb form of "doul/tuyl" to mean "let" as in "let the cruelty"?

AS mentioned above, more than anything else "Dle Yaman" is just an expression, an exclamation. It can be safely translated as

Alas Cruelty!!

This may be further asserted as it is used rpeatedly in the refrain ... Yaman, yaman, yaman/Alas, alas, alas!!

[Sip]

I know it's not as "poetic" as that translation but wouldn't it be more appropriete to say:

 

Soldier's Song - My Thoughts Flying Home

Soldier's Song - Thinking of Home

 

or maybe a more direct translation:

 

Soldier's Song - Making my home wet with my thoughts

 

Thank you I am before hand.

 

.

 

[ July 14, 2002, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Tatavla]

Adanayi Vorp(vorp@,vorpe) = the orphan of Adana

Trcheyi mtqov tun = "to fly/ flying/ flew home in my thoughts" or "want to fly home in my thoughts"

[MosJan]

Shnorhakal bolorits

[MosJan]

Tatavla jan Welcome to HyeForum

 

it's not vorp = Orphen

it VorB

[Sip]

Is that 'r' as in sirun (beautiful) or 'r' as in the french 'r' as in degegh (ugly) ???

 

.

 

[ July 15, 2002, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Harut]

by now you should have noticed that, Sip.

our Movses is either "tlik" or French.

[SAS]

La& > Lao

 

La& = vordi/zavak/dzag nuynpes hayern bar chi:

 

Im kartsiqov, "lao"-n "la&"-i pagahqshakan dzevn e:

 

H.G."&"-n jashi miji "j"-n e...

[Arpa]

Barev SAS,

Bari es eker, after a long silence.

If I am reading your transliteration correctly you are saying that lao is another form of eandearment (pagahkshakan) of "laj" You mean the "laj" in Komitas' Antuni where each verse ends with the refrain of "Ay! to laj tnaver". You may have a point there as "laj" according to Ajarian means "tgha". There is no explanation as to where it comes from or the origin of the word. Ajarian also mentions that many others use it in almost similar way including Kurdish etc. One suggestion which he rejects is that some have suggested that it is from the English "lad".

I still meainatin that it probably has something to do with "lakot", only that it is modified to sound endearing rather than insulting. The Arabs also use "lak" in much the same way we use "dzo/tso", a soemwhat coarse way to address a boy. I will write about this under separate cover.

Does anybody know a Kurd that speaks Kurdish?

[Arpa]

Welscome indeed Tatavia

Let this be your first lesson.

Mosjan is very tricky. When he uses the letter "r" you'll have to be very careful and watch the context. At times he means R as "bari es eker" but more often than not he uses to sound like the French R. So if you see him write "xaror" what he really means is "khaghogh", grape. His "vorp Adanyi" was meant to be read a "voghb Aadanyi", lament not orphan. Whe he writes "gerecik" that means "geghetsik/beautiful".

There ought to be law!!

[Tatavla]

thanx

 

(& hopefully, i'll be more careful in the future)

[Sip]

Merci

 

I also read is as "vorp" (orphan) at first. But then after I saw "lament" I guessed it's probably 'voghb' but then again, I was not sure about that word, voghb. The good thing is that my Armenian vocabulary has been expanding greatly since I've been around here ... Thanks.

 

[ July 16, 2002, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[SAS]

Voghjuyn, Arpa:

 

Harkadir lrutyuns uner ir pat&arner@` gluxs u gortsers mi qich xarn ein...

 

La&/laj voch miayn Antunium e handipum, ayl mer azgayin dyucaznavepum,

 

el chem asum vor im harazat` Msho barbarum ayn amenorya gortsatsakan bar e:

 

Minchev hima mer gyughaqaghaqum mayrern irenc zavaknerin qnqshoren "la&o/lao" en asum:

 

Qo bacatrutyun@ shat hetaqrqir er ( lakot > lao ), bayc yes kuzenayi ushadrutyund hravirel mi hangamanqi vra:

 

"Lakot"-n ogtagortsum en hamarya bolor haykakan barbarnerum:

 

-Shan lakot, de xeloq nsti teghd` kyanqs kerar, e:

 

Sa mi sovorakan naxadasutyun e, vor mayrern asum en sndiki nman sharzhun, holi nman mor gogum pttvogh irenc poqriknerin:

 

Isk la&/lao, inchqan indz haytni e, Sasuni/Msho/Taroni barbarnerum,vortegh shat en qrdakan poxarutyunnern u qrdereni azdecutyun@ mets:

 

Ayn uni nayev nrberangner`

 

Lao, imal is, dor kertas = VORDYAK, inchpes es, ur es gnum?

 

Lao, xeloq mna, im hers ch'hanis = TGHA, xeloq mna, indz ch'jghaynacnes/kataghecnes:

 

Aha aysqan@...

 

H.G. Arpa,togh qez mot chsteghtsvi ayn tpavorutyun@, vor yes amen gnov uzum em im

 

SIROGHAKAN makardakov qez( el chem asum` A&aryanin ) haka&arel: Qav lici!

 

Im gratsnern aveli shat harcer en, yentadrutyunner, qan te pndumner:

 

Gitutyun aystegh "mrapum" e, miayn gortsum e lezvi zgacoghutyun@,

 

vorn ardyunq e aveli shat bnazdi, qan te` banakanutyan...

 

[ July 17, 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: SAS ]

[MosJan]

Shnorhakal em

 

Uremn iyspes

 

Zarmanali Visht - Amazing Grace

 

Tariner - Years

 

Dle YAmen

 

Adana Voghb@ - lament of Adana or Adanas lament

 

Mush

 

Qele Laow - LEts Go my kid - or - Lets / Walk / Come Lao

 

Parzir Arbyur - ?

 

Zinvori Yerg - Soldier's Song

 

Mi Lar Blbul - ?

 

-

i need 2 mor Thank you - all

[MosJan]

che aper Flansyatsy @engeRuhi uneyi mi jamanak - iRanits em varRraqverRr.

 

Ba

He ha

[Arpa]

Oh, no it is far from the Season to be Jolly.

So, is it the season to be silly?

I was silly once today already, so I'll be silly again. My serious response will follow.

In the meantime;

Mi Lar Blbul= Don't Cry My Bull.

 

Parzir Aghbyur= Krdi Lakot.

 

Just listen to the words;

 

"Parzir Aghbyur, parzir arat jur tanem.

Parzir, parzir Krdin tghin jur tanem

Aghbyur gites Kurd@ mezi inch kane?

K@ kpghopte, k@ haladze, kspanne.

Parzir, parzir. Krdi lajin jur tanem."

[Arpa]

I was going to suggest that Movses' affliction of using R to mean GH was due to too much French wine, bayts i hayt kga, ir isk khostvanqov, te bun harts@ Fransakan gini che ayl Fransatsi kin.

[Arpa]

OK, I forgot my silly pills this morning

Am I forgiven? Or do I have to write a "Zghjum" like Petros Turian

 

Parzir Arbyur - ?

This is relatively short.

Parzir=Open

Aghbyur=Fountain.

So the English would be "Open Fountain".

But this is kind dry and Drab. Let's see if we can make it more poetic, i.e. Take some "poetic license".

The formal English word for aghbyur is fountain but that would not be so poetic and it would not fit the meter. Many poets have taken the liberty to abbreviate the word to "fount".

Let's see how this will fit;

 

OPEN OH FOUNT

 

Mi Lar Blbul - ?

I would translate this as, again for the sake of poesy and meter;

Cry Not My Lark!

Let me explain.

Many professional linguists who know much better than I have translated "blbul" into Armenian as "sokhak". It makes sense, kind of. In the Armenian tradition sokhak is the embodiment of a song bird, so much so that we describe some singers, usually female ones as; "sokhaki pes daylaylum e".

In fact in its original languages, such as Arabic, blbul is used to describe a canary. The Armenian word for canary is "deghtsanik" (mainly for its yellew color). If in fact we translate it to mean sokhak then technically and scientifically it had to be translated into English as "robin". See the book "A Field Guide to Birds of Armenia", plate 44, opposite page 108. The way we know robins, they are not the model of a songbird.

http://www.jjaudubon.com/havell/plates/plate131.html

Some people may have had their wires crossed.

"Blbul" is from the original Persian. My Pers-Eng dictionary defines it as "lark". This latter bird has been the subject of many a poet, including but not limited to Shelley, Keats et al. It has not escaped the Armenian poets either. The Armenian poets refer to "lark" as "artuyt"(I wish I could remember who has written a poem about it. Is it Daniel V. in his Hatsin Erg@?

http://www.usc.edu/isd/archives/arc/librar...t/audubob1.html

So, if "blbul" originally means "lark" then the Armenian for it would be "artuyt". (See same book Plate 39, opposite page 98.)

Once again, for the sake of poesy and rhythm I suggest;

 

CRY NOT MY LARK

[Tatavla]

The word "bulbul" is actually used in English, and indicates a bird that belongs to the family Pycnonotidae.

So, it can just be "do not cry my bulbul", "cry not my bulbul", or any similar variations...

If u don't want to use "bulbul", using "lark" will also be ok i guess; even though larks belong to the family of songbirds called Alaudidae.

Another good substitute is "nightingale".This is a songbird that belongs to yet a different family called the Turdinae. In fact, it's believed that the often mentioned "bulbul" in Persian poetry is probably the "nightingale". Nightingales have a melodious song that is often heard at night- thus, the name " nightingale".

In Turkish-English dictionaries, "bulbul" is defined as "nightingale".

As far as the lands - that the Armenians traditionally lived on - are concerned, among the above mentioned 3 songbirds (bulbuls, larks, nightingales), larks & nightingales are the more common ones. Again, as far as the traditional Armenian inhabited lands are concerned, bulbuls can only be seen in Cilicia.

 

(NOTE: even though the research i did wasn't nearly as lengthy as i would have wanted it to be, i belive it is still noteworthy information)

[nairi]

"Dle Yaman" roughly translated into English would be: I'm depressed.

 

Dle: heart in Persian

 

Yaman: to be in pain/to hurt in Turkish

 

Dle Yaman: My heart is in pain/hurts, which in Armenian comes down to depression. Sirt@s b@rn@vats e/tsavoom e, I'm feeling low or depressed.

 

Later,

Nairi

[MosJan]

the closest i have got to Dle Yaman is -My harts pain - or - pain of my hart -

[MosJan]

;lav portsem amborjatsnel iys amen@

 

Tariners - My Years

 

Dle Yamen - Ales of My Heart

 

Used to express sorrow, regret, grief, compassion, or apprehension of danger or evil.

Alas Cruelty / pain of my hart, Vax@ strum's kam Srtis tsav@ Vax@

 

-> Ales of My Heart

 

Adanayi WoghB@ - lament of Adana

 

Mush

 

Qele Law - Lets Go my Son

 

Parzir Arbyur - Cleanse Oh Spring

 

Zinvori Yerg - Soldier's Song or Song of the Soldier

 

Mi Lar Blbul - Don't Cry My Lark

 

Jorovurd mi hat nayeq eli shat shtap petqa:)

[Arpa]

Good work Movses!

I'll use upper case to distinguish from your lines.

 

Tariners - My Years

GOOD

 

Dle Yamen - Ales of My Heart

IN MY OPINION IT IS A KURDISH EXCLAMMATION(BATSKANCHUTYUN) THAT MAY NOT MAKE SENSE in LITERAL TRANSLATION SO WHAT YOU SAY MAY BE AS GOOD AS ANY TO CONVEY THE SPIRIT.

Used to express sorrow, regret, grief, compassion, or apprehension of danger or evil.

Alas Cruelty / pain of my hart, Vax@ strum's kam Srtis tsav@ Vax@

HOW ABOUT "MY BROKEN HEART" OR "MY ACHING HEART"?

 

-> Alas of My Heart

THIS IS GOOD TOO

 

Adanayi WoghB@ - lament of Adana

Mush

 

Qele Law - Lets Go my Son

GOOD

 

Parzir Arbyur - Cleanse Oh Spring

IN THIS CONTEXT "PARZIR" MEANS "OPEN(WIDE)" like "sirt@ parzel". IN the tezx the young Armenian maiden pleadu=in to the fountain to "open wide" so she can take water to the "krdin tghin"

 

Zinvori Yerg - Soldier's Song or Song of the Soldier

GOOD

Mi Lar Blbul - Don't Cry My Lark

CRY NOT MY LARK is more poetic and better sounding

Jorovurd mi hat nayeq eli shat shtap petqa:)