Dave Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 Politics Georgian Traces in “Armenian” Temple Quite recently I was told that ethnic Armenian population living in the village of Vale, Southern part of Georgia, built an Armenian temple on the remains of an ancient Georgian church. However, none of the Georgian journalists who traveled to Vale have managed to record the church on their camera and returned empty-handed without any evidence. Van Baiburt, an MP for the region, dismissed the report and labelless those people disseminating the news as provokers of conflict between Georgian and Armenian people. To my regret, I found that there was some truth in the news: an Armenian temple has been built but not in the village of Vale but 3 kms away from the village of Tskaltbila, formerly called Kudra. Professor Tina Ivelashvili, Doctor of Historic Science at Tbilisi State University, studied the case and told the details to GT. Tina Ivelashviili: “None of the Georgian journalists have found the temple because those who arrived in the village of Tskaltbila were asking the local population about where the Georgian temple was located. Tskaltbila is a village densely populated by ethnic Armenian people. Journalists did not spare efforts to find the temple but having found nothing they used to come back empty-handed. Had they asked about the temple to ethnic Georgians, they would have been more successful. As for Vale, you can still find there a Georgian temple dating back to the 10th -11th centuries, also a Catholic church built in 1838 and some remains of Mosque. The people of Tskaltbila are conducting religious services in an Armenian church which was erected on the ruins of ancient Georgian temple. Q: How have you tracked down to this temple? A: This problem popped up when I was working on the Mardi church, one of those six churches on which Armenian Patriarchy is laying a claim. We were five when we arrived in the village of Tskaltbila and recorded everything. The site is closer to the Georgian-Turkish border than to the village of Tskaltbila. Q: How did you learn that Georgian population had lived in the village before? A: According to Great Record of Gurjistani Vilaiety, the village was home to about 10 Christian households who, according to the document, used to pay taxes for breeding pigs and for getting married. According to the Turkish laws, only Christian population paid the taxes. The names mentioned in the tax documentations are purely Georgian. I don’t know the history how this village was ruined but the church survived. In the Soviet era this zone was guarded with utmost vigilance [since it was the border of the Soviet empire] but none of the Russian soldiers ever damaged the church. After the USSR collapsed and the Soviet troops started to leave, the Armenian population acquired the territory. They began to cultivate the land on the area and in consequent years built an Armenian temple on the Georgian church. Q: If you look at the temple from far corner no one will discern the remnants of the Georgian church. A: Yes, I agree. Nothing can be seen from the roadside. They have maintained the front wall and the Southern wall of the Georgian temple while the wall in its West is ruined and there is a cross a cross of stones with Armenian inscriptions erected inside [see the photos]. They did everything in violation of Georgian laws. Unfortunately, neither regional department of Monument Protection Department nor the Ministry of Culture, Monument Protection and Sports have reacted to the illegality. The Armenian Church should be demolished because it is quite recent and damages the historic treasury, and those who did it should be brought to justice. No matter whether it is a mosque, a Catholic church, a Synagogue or a Georgian Orthodox Church, the state should protect a historical monument – it should not be ruined, damaged or even repaired without the official permission. Saint George Temple where the Armenian cross was erected dates back to the 9th -10th centuries. If we do not have money to repair it, we should at least maintain the way it has survived. Even the Communists in the Soviet epoch did not touch the temple and why are they so careless now? Without the state permission not a single stone should be removed on such sites. This is what the laws are stating. The fact is that Georgian cultural monuments are being misappropriated. Some people are doing so deliberately, step by step to make everyone think that these monuments and this land is Armenian. Hundreds of years later the rest of the world will believe that this soil is really an Armenian one. The ethnic Armenian population of the village does have a church where they can chant liturgies and offer other religious services. A big Armenian church is standing in the center of the village. They now built a temple 3 kms away from the village. This suggests that this is a deliberate misappropriation of the Georgian monuments and attempt to Armenianize them. There is a Toki Georgian Monastery in the village of Aspinda. The restoration work of the monastery complex was ostensibly financed by the head of the local forest department whose name was Tedoradze. However, as I explored further Tedoradze did not pay the money but the money was coming from a Russia-based Armenian citizen. When requested documentation from Tedoradze about permission on the reconstruction work he could not show be anything. I contacted Nika Vacheishvili, Deputy Minister of Culture who found out that the restoration work was conducted without any official permission. He sent his representatives to study the situation on the spot. Finally, the repair work has been stalled. I think it’s high time we stood up and be counted. It is high time people reacted to such actions. This all need serious attention. Q: How does the Armenian population comment on it? A: They were hiding and would not say anything. Then I told Tedoradze he could sue me if I was wrong, and I promised to publicly apologize him if the court said I was wrong. But nobody responded. I don’t want to insult the ethnic Armenian population. I just respect their culture and monuments and I do want them to respond in the same way. http://www.geotimes.ge/index.php?m=home&newsid=904 _______________ Funny that they're trusting Ottoman sources (Great Record of Gurjistani Vilaiet) in order to lay claims on that specific Armenian church and many other churches in the region. This is only one of the ways used by certain Georgian agents to de-armenianize Javakhk. "Re"settling Metskhetian Turks to the Armenian-inhabited districts of Georgia is another way. Their goal is to strengthen Georgian-Turkish relations. ALL the churches of Georgia, whether they was used by Armenians or Georgians, are 100% copies of Armenian churches and they should be treated so. Does anyone here see this as being a Georgian church? http://www.stonegardenproductions.com/images/georgia_church3.JPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eurocentric Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 Classical case of cultural appropriation. Lets add that to the long list next their alphabet, architecture, Bagratunis, early years of their Church, aristocracy, need I mention Tiflis a century ago etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 (edited) Even before the immense contribution of a people recognized as "Armenian", it is common knowledge that the nation Georgia and her civilized history began as a byproduct of the Hurrian culture and the state of Ararat. The clues lie in their popular tradition and most importantly, their language. Edited July 19, 2006 by Zartonk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 village of Tskaltbila Wow, small world. Thats the village my mums entire family comes from. They are Armenian Catholics who moved into the area in mid-1850s from the Erzrum area. From what I heard from relatives while I was in Armenia a couple years back, only the old remain. Cant these Georgian scum wait a couple decaded for the remainder to die off before moving in!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eva Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 Back when I was still living in Armenia , I used to visit Tiflis every summer with my grandparents( my grandma's parents are from Georgia), and we used to visit a very small church St. Gregory , which is in Durnuk, small armenian village.I haven't heard of this one, but there is one that they have restored Edchmiadzin, which is in Havlabar next to the subway. Whoever has been in Tiflis would know which one I am talking about. From our house in Tiflis which was in Havlabar we could see the 12 churches,. and the picture that you have posted is very similar to the view that i was getting from our balcony, may be I am wrong because i havent been is Tiflis for 6 years but it's very similar.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eva Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 St. Gregory, George (Սուրբ Գեվորգ ) some of the locals were calling just Astvazazin (Սուրբ Աստվածածին ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eva Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 Under the picture that you have posted states " Georgian churches on a hillside in central Tbilisi © 2003 Stone Garden Productions, Photo by Matthew Karanian. " So I think this one is the picture in Havlabar and the structure behind the church is the Pepo's Berd.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 I didn't know about this. Havlabar is the area of Tiflis populated by Armenians, is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud EXPAT Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 I didn't know about this. Havlabar is the area of Tiflis populated by Armenians, is that correct? Correct. Quite run down if you ask me. Some parts remind me of Yerevan's Sari Tagh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eva Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 yes , many armenians live in Havlabar, it's very beautiful, but after the earthquake it neeed some more restoration. Many of the old houses with the really nice carved balconies are still available to see, but now they are building new " modern" buildings, which don't even look nice with the old architecture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eva Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 armenian churches in Georgia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eva Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 ahvlabar and the new church Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran Forever Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 Back when I was still living in Armenia , I used to visit Tiflis every summer with my grandparents( my grandma's parents are from Georgia), and we used to visit a very small church St. Gregory , which is in Durnuk, small armenian village.I haven't heard of this one, but there is one that they have restored Edchmiadzin, which is in Havlabar next to the subway. Whoever has been in Tiflis would know which one I am talking about. From our house in Tiflis which was in Havlabar we could see the 12 churches,. and the picture that you have posted is very similar to the view that i was getting from our balcony, may be I am wrong because i havent been is Tiflis for 6 years but it's very similar.. St. Shoshana who was martyred in Tbilisi was Armenian, I believe...there is a church in Tbilisi named after her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran Forever Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 Even before the immense contribution of a people recognized as "Armenian", it is common knowledge that the nation Georgia and her civilized history began as a byproduct of the Hurrian culture and the state of Ararat. The clues lie in their popular tradition and most importantly, their language. Zartonk, my father and I were in Tbilisi two months ago...we were about to lose our minds, since we speak no Georgian and no Russian...their script is just about as difficult as Armenian script, and hard to interpret. But what a beautiful country! I dragged my Muslim father to the Church in Metechi where the Robe of Christ is...he admired its architecture and the beautiful iconography inside. We were surprised that Georgian has many words similar to Persian...yogurt is "matsoni", like Persian "mast" and the Persian words "kishmish" and "penjereh" have made their way into the Georgian language. I don't think the Georgian language has the letter "f" though, since they seem to use "P" where "F" is used...for example I was telling this Georgian about Fereidounshahr in Iran which has an old Georgian community...he had heard of it, but pronounced it "Pereidounshahr". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 yogurt is "matsoni", like Persian "mast" In Armenian, it's "madzoun". Very similar. Armenian didn't have the "f" letter either. It was added later during the Middle ages in the Cilician period when closer contact was established with Europeans and their languages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted July 20, 2006 Report Share Posted July 20, 2006 for example I was telling this Georgian about Fereidounshahr in Iran which has an old Georgian community...he had heard of it, but pronounced it "Pereidounshahr Iranforever, Let's not forget that the pronounciations of certain phrases in modern Persian beginning with F are later evolutions of their original P forms due to interaction with the Arabic tounge. Examples are Fil/Pil (elephant), Ferdows/Perdows (source of English Paradise), Foolad/Poolad (steel; iron), Feerooz/Peerooz (victor), Fenjan/Penjan (cup) Farman/Parman (order) and of coarse, Fars/Pars and Farsi/Parsi. So it is actually possible to withhold the speculation that besides the linguistic inabillity of the Georgian to pronounce P, maybe he had managed to preserve the ancient form of the phrase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armenak Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 The Persian word for elephant is similar to the Armenian pigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 (edited) Hey you guys! As long as we are talking about the letter F, why don’t we all go to the Language section and read my post, the “F-Factor”, and say whatever F…antasies you may have. Don't be intimated. You may see and add as to how "fil" becomes "pigh" and "Parsi" becomes "Farsi". Edited July 21, 2006 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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