Greeks Siding With Turks

[Bakersfieldian]

Hello everyone.

 

I've been growing tired of listening to many Greeks who keep claiming we have repeatedly sided with the turks against them.

 

Example:

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/index.htm

 

Once the Armenians (monophysites - ed.) paid the Turks, who then occupied the Holy Land, in order to obtain permission for their Patriarch to enter the Holy Sepulchre, the Orthodox Patriarch was standing sorrowfully with his flock at the exit of the church, near the left column, when the Holy Light split this column vertically and flashed near the Orthodox Patriarch.

 

This is just one example I had thrown in my face recently.

 

Any examples of the Greeks siding with the turks would be greatly appreciated.

 

(With links to back it up, of course)

 

 

 

Edited to remove Link

Edited June 16, 2006 by vava

[tigranisbasileus]

It is a sad day in history that th armenians think that we belive you would sid with Turks.

 

It is as absurd as we siding with turks against you...

 

We are still waiting for the day th armenians will join the Orthodox Ecoumeny again.

 

 

apparently, 10 years ago, the union became close.

 

The problem arose only on th subject of recognition of the saints after the split that Constantinople views are heretics.

 

In no way do i claim to be a theologian, but I believe it a small price to payto bring the Armenians back into the Orthodox family...

 

 

Besides it will make intermarriages and mixing of the armenians with other orthodoxes easier...

 

What you must remember is that any bozzo can get his own website and write bull about armenians...

 

don't believe that we greeks think this...

 

We think its sad that oiur clergy can unite...

 

again its probably not about dogma but about power and $....

 

regardless of what I hav said greeks are the closest things to an ally...

 

so don't take this topic any further....

 

In the end hyes will lose an ally in the cause...

 

lets not forget what is written on the nt stays forever...

 

 

Tigranis

 

lets not encourage hate, allright?

[Stormig]

What is being "thrown" in your face? Somehow the Ottomans' being paid to occupy Jerusalem doesn't quite fly with me, I don't think they needed bribing. Moreover, even if, it seems like a good exchange of interests - the Byzantines did not always invest in having conventional diplomatic relations with the Armenian Church, leading to grudges. The patriarchate in Constantinople was formed only after the fall of the Byzantine Empire. Just a couple of years ago there was a squabble over that between the Greek and Armenian patriarchs during the ceremony. Good thing they didn't burn themselves. So we don't even see the full extent of recognition there. What seems to be the problem? "Not personal, is business."

[Arpa]

Hi Bakers,

I am not sure what theabove dispute is about. I have a suspicion that it may refer to the article below..

As a rule if Greeks had brains they would be more dangerous that the Armenians.

If you want to know Byzantine/Greco Armenian “love affair” read about the last days of Ani.

By all means, let us have wars over such stupid things as “holy-schmoly fires” while the Turk uses that fire to make khorovats of our hetuyqs.

Below a post at HyeForum by our own Azat.

 

Azat

Apr 15 2001, 08:05 PM

Mystery of Jerusalem's Holy Fire comes to light

By Alan Philps in Jerusalem

 

FOR more than 1,200 years the ritual of the Holy Fire has been performed in Jerusalem every Easter, with a flame "miraculously" appearing at the darkened tomb of Jesus to symbolise the Resurrection.

 

To a great cheer from the 3,000 faithful, the divine light appeared at 2.10 on Saturday afternoon, and was passed from candle to candle around the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and through the narrow streets to Christian homes in the Old City.

 

In past centuries, the Holy Fire was carried from Jerusalem all through the Orthodox world - by steamer to Odessa on the Black Sea to light the icon lamps of Russia, on mules to Damascus in the steps of St Paul, and by camel caravan to the churches of the Coptic Christians of Egypt. The mystery of the Holy Fire has been a secret for centuries, even though Muslims have long denounced it as a trick and Roman Catholics and Protestants give the ceremony a wide berth.

 

This year, however, the mystery of how the flame appears has been penetrated. The ceremony, conducted by the Greek and Armenian Orthodox churches, begins with the extinguishing of all lights in the church. The door to the presumed site of the burial and Resurrection of Jesus is searched for light and sealed with wax.

 

The priests parade around the tomb three times then go inside. After a tense wait, as the often rowdy congregation holds its breath, a flame suddenly appears. Candles are passed out of holes on either side of the tomb to torch-bearers from the Greek and Armenian churches, who race up the steps, competing to be the first to bring the fire to the top balcony.

 

A cheer spreads through the darkened church when the fire is first seen. The flame is passed from hand to hand, with the faithful waving bundles of candles and spattering themselves with hot wax. The church comes alive in a blaze of light, smoke and incense. It is hard not to be taken up in the euphoria.

 

Local Christians - a tiny minority in a Holy Land racked by violence - certainly need something to cheer them up. But one Armenian torch-bearer, Soukias Tchilingirian, felt the truth had to be told. He said: "It's not a miracle. The Greek priests bring in a lamp - one that has been kept burning for 1,500 years - to produce the Holy Fire. For pilgrims full of faith who come from abroad, it is a fire from Heaven, a true miracle. But not for us. Of course the source of the fire is ancient and symbolic. I heard this from my father and I think he knew the truth."

 

For most of the year Mr Tchilingirian is a chef, living in Raynes Park, south-west London. But at Easter he is an aristocrat of Jerusalem's Armenian community and enjoys the ancient privilege of racing the fire up to the Patriarch's throne. At the age of 53, Mr Tchilingirian, who left Jerusalem in 1968, is now handing over to his "much faster" son.

 

A senior member of the Armenian community was shocked by the suggestion that Greek priests smuggled in the flame. "I have never seen it as my business to ask the Patriarch from where the Holy Fire comes," he sniffed.

This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.

[tigranisbasileus]

Hi Bakers,

I am not sure what theabove dispute is about. I have a suspicion that it may refer to the article below..

As a rule if Greeks had brains they would be more dangerous that the Armenians.

If you want to know Byzantine/Greco Armenian “love affair” read about the last days of Ani.

By all means, let us have wars over such stupid things as “holy-schmoly fires” while the Turk uses that fire to make khorovats of our hetuyqs.

Below a post at HyeForum by our own Azat.

 

Azat

Apr 15 2001, 08:05 PM

Mystery of Jerusalem's Holy Fire comes to light

By Alan Philps in Jerusalem

 

FOR more than 1,200 years the ritual of the Holy Fire has been performed in Jerusalem every Easter, with a flame "miraculously" appearing at the darkened tomb of Jesus to symbolise the Resurrection.

 

To a great cheer from the 3,000 faithful, the divine light appeared at 2.10 on Saturday afternoon, and was passed from candle to candle around the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and through the narrow streets to Christian homes in the Old City.

 

In past centuries, the Holy Fire was carried from Jerusalem all through the Orthodox world - by steamer to Odessa on the Black Sea to light the icon lamps of Russia, on mules to Damascus in the steps of St Paul, and by camel caravan to the churches of the Coptic Christians of Egypt. The mystery of the Holy Fire has been a secret for centuries, even though Muslims have long denounced it as a trick and Roman Catholics and Protestants give the ceremony a wide berth.

 

This year, however, the mystery of how the flame appears has been penetrated. The ceremony, conducted by the Greek and Armenian Orthodox churches, begins with the extinguishing of all lights in the church. The door to the presumed site of the burial and Resurrection of Jesus is searched for light and sealed with wax.

 

The priests parade around the tomb three times then go inside. After a tense wait, as the often rowdy congregation holds its breath, a flame suddenly appears. Candles are passed out of holes on either side of the tomb to torch-bearers from the Greek and Armenian churches, who race up the steps, competing to be the first to bring the fire to the top balcony.

 

A cheer spreads through the darkened church when the fire is first seen. The flame is passed from hand to hand, with the faithful waving bundles of candles and spattering themselves with hot wax. The church comes alive in a blaze of light, smoke and incense. It is hard not to be taken up in the euphoria.

 

Local Christians - a tiny minority in a Holy Land racked by violence - certainly need something to cheer them up. But one Armenian torch-bearer, Soukias Tchilingirian, felt the truth had to be told. He said: "It's not a miracle. The Greek priests bring in a lamp - one that has been kept burning for 1,500 years - to produce the Holy Fire. For pilgrims full of faith who come from abroad, it is a fire from Heaven, a true miracle. But not for us. Of course the source of the fire is ancient and symbolic. I heard this from my father and I think he knew the truth."

 

For most of the year Mr Tchilingirian is a chef, living in Raynes Park, south-west London. But at Easter he is an aristocrat of Jerusalem's Armenian community and enjoys the ancient privilege of racing the fire up to the Patriarch's throne. At the age of 53, Mr Tchilingirian, who left Jerusalem in 1968, is now handing over to his "much faster" son.

 

A senior member of the Armenian community was shocked by the suggestion that Greek priests smuggled in the flame. "I have never seen it as my business to ask the Patriarch from where the Holy Fire comes," he sniffed.

This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.

 

As a rule if Greeks had brains they would be more dangerous that the Armenians.

 

racist statement

[Arpa]

As a rule if Greeks had brains they would be more dangerous that the Armenians.

 

racist statement

Yeah! Yeah! Racist. My vorik! Do you know what that means?

Do you know Turkish?

Here is a saying, in Turkish even if it was coined by Turkish speaking Armenians; "It derisinden post olmaz, Rum Ermeniye dost olmaz". Translation will be furnished if necesary.

With friends like the Byzantian Greeks who needs enemies!!!

Edited June 16, 2006 by Arpa

[tigranisbasileus]

Yeah! Yeah! Racist.

Do you know Turkish?

Here is a saying, in Turkish even if it was coined by Turkish speaking Armenians; "It derisinden post olmaz, Rum Ermeniye dost olmaz". Translation will be furnished if necesary.

With friends like the Byzantian Greeks who needs enemies!!!

I don't know turkish I come from a part of Greece that was never under turkish occupatio. Also, very few greeks know turkish, beucase we are greeks not turks!

 

Finally, man, Arpa, get over it...

 

some of you dudes are still suffering from post traumatic stress 91 years later.We aren't your enemies and if you think you are ours: your loss...

 

I think you, gamavor hellektor are so sadness by loss you can't think straight

 

Fortunately not all armenians are like you.

 

I have a question: do you hate a turkish baby that is just being born? Did he also do anything to hurt you.

 

A Forum is a forum: with time i understand now that there are moderates here and extremists; the extremists are those with unhappy sex lives

[gamavor]

The only one major point of dissent between Greeks and Armenians was Halkedon. Greeks could not forgive us not joining the chorus of the dumb! Yes, Dumb. Claiming that Jesus suffered from multiple personality disorder is Dumb and rightly so, Armenians refused to accept the formula of Halkedon.

 

After that, they tried tirelessly to convert us into "true" Orthodoxy, conviniently forgetting that the true orthodoxy is coined by the FIRST Christians, and the early Church Fathers - namely St. Cyril of Alexandria.

 

Halkedon, became a political and idelogical tool in the hands of the Greeks to exercise their dominion over newly converted Christians.

 

Once the "mystery" of the wording of the so-called 'dual natur' of Christ is resolved, the Greeks would go bare foot.

[tigranisbasileus]

The only one major point of dissent between Greeks and Armenians was Halkedon. Greeks could not forgive us not joining the chorus of the dumb! Yes, Dumb. Claiming that Jesus suffered from multiple personality disorder is Dumb and rightly so, Armenians refused to accept the formula of Halkedon.

 

After that, they tried tirelessly to convert us into "true" Orthodoxy, conviniently forgetting that the true orthodoxy is coined by the FIRST Christians, and the early Church Fathers - namely St. Cyril of Alexandria.

 

Halkedon, became a political and idelogical tool in the hands of the Greeks to exercise their dominion over newly converted Christians.

 

Once the "mystery" of the wording of the so-called 'dual natur' of Christ is resolved, the Greeks would go bare foot.

 

On this Gamavor is right; our priest made a blunder; the nature of Jesus issue has been resolved; it was a miscommunication problem;

 

So gamavor is right; and WE are waiting to accept you back into the Orthodox family : open arms;

 

Please?

 

This way those armenians that live to far away of big communities can attend other orthodox easter masses

and we can celebrate one easter.

 

Question is: which one?

 

Marriages between greeks and armenians become easier too

[Arpa]

Tigranes can I tell you what to do with your orthodox nature of Christ?

Some people call northern New York state "uppa US".

[tigranisbasileus]

This is so ridiculous...

 

Like W says' don't be a divider be a uniter...

 

You are the 1st christians: that is your claim to fame!

 

did you know that the Ethiopians have the same claim?

 

Why is this?

 

Oh yeah, we aren't your enemies extremist armenians are the enemy of the hyes because they give you a bad image just as tigranisbasileus the persona does for the greeks!

 

The only difference: tigranis is one: the people making racist and xenophobic comments here are many...

 

So the moderates of this site should wake up and realize that just like I found this site and was offended by some of the content others can to.

 

If greeks had only half a brain, And I one greek has stirred up stuff so bad here for so many armenians, am I really that dumb?

 

[gamavor]

In no way do i claim to be a theologian, but I believe it a small price to payto bring the Armenians back into the Orthodox family...

 

We never left the Orthodox family to begin with. You did, by usurping the Orthodox theology!

 

Here: Recite at loud and I Gamavor will baptise you on-line in the true Orthodox faith!

 

 

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth of things visible and invisible, and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only begotten, that is of the substance of the Father. God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made. He is of the nature of the Father, and through him all things came into being in heaven and on earth, both visible and invisible. Who for us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven took a body and became man. He was born perfectly by the Holy Spirit to the holy virgin Mary, through whom he took body, soul, mind. and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance He suffered, was crucified and was buried, He rose on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat down at the right hand of the Father. He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom has no end. We also believe in the Holy Spirit, who was not created, and who is perfect, who spoke in the Law and in the Prophets and in the Gospels, who came down at the Jordan, who preached through the apostles and who lived in the saints We believe also in only one universal and apostolic Holy Church, in one in one baptism, with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins, in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life Eternal.

 

In Armenian, The Nicean Creed is called "Havadamk"

 

Havadamk ee mee Asdvadz ee Hayrn amenagal, hararichun yergnee yev yergree, yerevelyatzyev anerevootitz. Yev ee mee Der Hisoos Krisdos, hortin Asdoodzoo, dzunyaln hasdoodzoo Hore, Miyadzin, aysinkun heyoutene Hor. Asdvadz hassdoodzo, looys ee looso, Asdvadz jushmarid hassdoodzoojushmarde, dzunoontyev voch araradz.Nooyn inkn ee bunootene Hor, vorovamenayn inchyeghev hergins yev ee vera yergree, yerevelik yev anerevooytk. Vor haghakusmer, martgan, yev vasun mero purgootian itchyal ee hergnitz marmnatzav, martatzav, dzunav gadarelabess ee Maryama surbo goosen Hokvovn Surbov. Vorov ear marmin, hokee, yev mid, yev zamenayn vor inch e ee mart, jushmardabess yev voch gardzyok. Charcharyal, khachyal, taghyal, herrort avoor harootzyal, yelyal ee herginus novin marmnovn,nusdav unt atchme Hor. Kalotz e novin marm no vun yev parok Hor, ee tadel uzgentanis yev uzmeryals, voro ta kavorootianun voch ko vakhjan. Havadamk yev ee soorb hokin haneghun yev ee gadaryaln, vor khosetzav horenus yev ee markaress yev havedarans, vor etchn ee Hortanan, karozyatz harakyalsn yev bu na getzav ee soorbsn. Havadamk yev ee mee meeyayn unt hanragan yev arakelagan soorb yegeghetzee, ee mee mugurdootiun, habashkharootiun, ee kavootiun yev ee toghootuin meghatz. Ee harootiun merelotz, ee tadasdan nun haveedenitz hokvotz yev marmnotz, harkayootiun yergnitz, yev ee giansun haveedenagans.

[Armenak]

You are the 1st christians: that is your claim to fame!

Incorrect.

 

You are a fool.

[Deniz]

Turks > Greeks & Armenians combined.

[Armenak]

Turks > Greeks & Armenians combined.

Maybe in a goatherding contest!

[Deniz]

Maybe in a goatherding contest!

No, in a goatherding contest the result would be:

Armenians > Greeks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Turks.

[Armenak]

Nice one, khamadjig.

[Deniz]

Nice one, khamadjig.

If there's a clown, that's you.

[Armenak]

If there's a clown, that's you.

[tigranisbasileus]

We side With th Armenians, never with thee Turks...shame some armos don't want Us.

 

 

Tigranis...

 

 

And Deniz I'm impressed you also know french...

 

 

Bravo mon mec!

 

 

I got nothing against you. Just th Turkish governement and the people than run turkey ssso not ven 1% of turks and not all Turks onlyu thos that Have a problem with us and the armos.

 

But realistically, Turks don't care about Armos because in their minds they took care of them 91 years ago, right? Why don't you have the b*lls to admit it at least!

 

but because you did a turkish job of that the armos are gonna make you pay one day...

 

The irony is that your gvt shall ask for our help: On the basis of not being massacred! We shall answer who remembers th annihilation of the ..... We shall help you not because we like you but because wee aren't Turks... because genocide is wrong

[Iran Forever]

We never left the Orthodox family to begin with. You did, by usurping the Orthodox theology!

 

Here: Recite at loud and I Gamavor will baptise you on-line in the true Orthodox faith!

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth of things visible and invisible, and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only begotten, that is of the substance of the Father. God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made. He is of the nature of the Father, and through him all things came into being in heaven and on earth, both visible and invisible. Who for us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven took a body and became man. He was born perfectly by the Holy Spirit to the holy virgin Mary, through whom he took body, soul, mind. and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance He suffered, was crucified and was buried, He rose on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat down at the right hand of the Father. He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom has no end. We also believe in the Holy Spirit, who was not created, and who is perfect, who spoke in the Law and in the Prophets and in the Gospels, who came down at the Jordan, who preached through the apostles and who lived in the saints We believe also in only one universal and apostolic Holy Church, in one in one baptism, with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins, in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life Eternal.

 

In Armenian, The Nicean Creed is called "Havadamk"

 

Havadamk ee mee Asdvadz ee Hayrn amenagal, hararichun yergnee yev yergree, yerevelyatzyev anerevootitz. Yev ee mee Der Hisoos Krisdos, hortin Asdoodzoo, dzunyaln hasdoodzoo Hore, Miyadzin, aysinkun heyoutene Hor. Asdvadz hassdoodzo, looys ee looso, Asdvadz jushmarid hassdoodzoojushmarde, dzunoontyev voch araradz.Nooyn inkn ee bunootene Hor, vorovamenayn inchyeghev hergins yev ee vera yergree, yerevelik yev anerevooytk. Vor haghakusmer, martgan, yev vasun mero purgootian itchyal ee hergnitz marmnatzav, martatzav, dzunav gadarelabess ee Maryama surbo goosen Hokvovn Surbov. Vorov ear marmin, hokee, yev mid, yev zamenayn vor inch e ee mart, jushmardabess yev voch gardzyok. Charcharyal, khachyal, taghyal, herrort avoor harootzyal, yelyal ee herginus novin marmnovn,nusdav unt atchme Hor. Kalotz e novin marm no vun yev parok Hor, ee tadel uzgentanis yev uzmeryals, voro ta kavorootianun voch ko vakhjan. Havadamk yev ee soorb hokin haneghun yev ee gadaryaln, vor khosetzav horenus yev ee markaress yev havedarans, vor etchn ee Hortanan, karozyatz harakyalsn yev bu na getzav ee soorbsn. Havadamk yev ee mee meeyayn unt hanragan yev arakelagan soorb yegeghetzee, ee mee mugurdootiun, habashkharootiun, ee kavootiun yev ee toghootuin meghatz. Ee harootiun merelotz, ee tadasdan nun haveedenitz hokvotz yev marmnotz, harkayootiun yergnitz, yev ee giansun haveedenagans.

OK dear Christian brothers (I am a convert to Old Calendar Greek Orthodox)...there is no reason to fight here...both the Armenian Apostolic Church (Gregorian) and Orthodox Church share Apostolic roots, share the Tradition of the Church Fathers and believe in the Nicean Creed. This is important...we share a common belief in the Trinity and in Holy Communion...now there are differences that are for our hierarchy to figure out...namely over whether the Armenian Church is Monophysitic or follows Chalcedonian theology, whether the Armenian Church accepts all Seven Ecumenical Councils, or only four out of the seven like the Egyptian Copts...but this should not be reason to fight...we are Christians first, and BOTH our churches, unlike Protestant churches, share Apostolic roots that go back to the Apostles...we both share custody of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem (the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate maintains the right to bring out the Holy Fire, but has never claimed full ownership of the whole church). I belong to an Old Calendarist Greek Orthodox Synod that follows the same Julian Calendar as the Armenian Church, and we are not in communion with Constantinople.

 

As for the Holy Fire, there is no way possible that the Greek Orthodox Patriarch can "smuggle" it in, since the Church is sealed by the Muslims (since Muslims are neutral when it comes to different Christian sects), and by the way, we Christians keep fighting with each other, which is why we had to agree to let the Muslims hold the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre...very sad indeed...in the meantime, the Jews are Judaizing our Christian holy places in Jerusalem and elsewhere in the Holy Land. The Holy Fire is a mystery no one can explain.

 

I am sad to see the fighting between the Georgian Orthodox Church and the Armenian Church as well...we are ALL Christians!

Edited July 10, 2006 by Iran Forever

[Eurocentric]

Byzantines were Chalcedonian Armenians

[irlandahay]

I don't know turkish I come from a part of Greece that was never under turkish occupatio. Also, very few greeks know turkish, beucase we are greeks not turks!

 

Finally, man, Arpa, get over it...

 

some of you dudes are still suffering from post traumatic stress 91 years later.We aren't your enemies and if you think you are ours: your loss...

 

I think you, gamavor hellektor are so sadness by loss you can't think straight

 

Fortunately not all armenians are like you.

 

I have a question: do you hate a turkish baby that is just being born? Did he also do anything to hurt you.

 

A Forum is a forum: with time i understand now that there are moderates here and extremists; the extremists are those with unhappy sex lives

k this is a little late to answer but i have to...

 

first off tigranes:

stop talking bout gamavor or hellektor...your nothing like them, they are strong people and i am proud to have armenians like them on my side

second: when hitler was a baby...did he commit a crime? no...but did we know he was gonna kill 6 million jews? no...but a turk baby..if he grows up defending the armenians, or protest against making a monument for the crime his grandfather commited?

so to answer your question...no i wouldnt kill him but if he is against recognition of the genocide...then i most certainly would hate him

 

and please...dont talk about people sex lives moron...you must not be getting much once your wife finds out your insulting her for wanting to raise her kid armenian...please greek...stop with the same bull shit

[Iran Forever]

Byzantines were Chalcedonian Armenians

Byzantine Empire had both Greeks and Armenians...

[Eurocentric]

Btw Gamavor, using the same logic the Assyrians of the Assyrian Church of the East can say that we broke off from Orthodoxy as they never recognized the Council of Ephesus which we did!