AraManoogian Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I’m not sure if anyone on this board is following the recent developments in terms of the recent election on November 27th, but for those of you who don’t know, Armenia had another election which I am 100% convinced was not done in a democratic fashion. What are the feelings of the people on this board? what do you think should be done and what do you think in fact will happen? As for me, what should be done is that the election should be voided for no other reason than it was no done improperly and clearly violated the will of the majority of the people. The Constitution is a document that reflects the will of the people and not the government. What will be done is that the government will continue to lie and say that everything was on the up and up, stonewalling any efforts to set things straight. Sadly, our only hope now is on the opposition, which I really don’t think is capable of setting things straight, nor do I think they really care all that much about anything but a chance to bitch, complain and campaign for the 2007 parliament election (I could be wrong). I went to one of their meetings at the manuscript library and other than name calling and demanding the Kocharian to resign, they didn’t present any real solution, just very vague actions that should be taken. The meeting of 3 days ago (the 2nd meeting, which I didn’t attend) had more people in attendance than the first (maybe 10,000 people). In 13 hours will be what I would guess is the final meeting, as the opposition had given the government an ultimatum. What will happen next I’m not sure, but if the government does not comply with the demands of the ultimatum, which is to void the results of the elections, then the people will have to march on the Presidential palace and maybe storm some building to show the government that enough is enough. Let’s hope it does not come down to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Thanks for your post and keeping us abrest of the developments. Speaking only myself, I have to admit that it's very hard for us here in the west to have a finger on the pulse of Armenian politics. The feelings of the people and political waves are as far away from me as the Tsunami I'll listen to RFE, read some of the weekly publications - but this gives me really only a vague idea of what's happening in the country. It's extremely difficult to evaluate an opinion; especially on something as important as improperly conducted general elections. Were their any international bodies overseeing the election process? What has the OSCE said? They scruntinized the last elections pretty harshly. It's definitely not in Armenia's international interests to gain a reputation for corrupt government, and improper electoral processes - but at the same time, only an impartial international observation team can give us a real perception as to what really happens during the electoral process there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 And wlecome to HF Ara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AraManoogian Posted December 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Visit http://www.oneworld.am/blog/ to see what the OSEC reported on the election and also photographs of how things have gone down, as well as related news stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloren Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 In my opinion, Sure the referendum was not very "democratic" but I think it is a good step even. The opposition doesn't present anything. Only a bunch of guys full of hatred against the actual president. Okay cut his head off, then what? Nothing.. Or maybe another corrupted person will take his place. My wish was that this constitution would pass, not only because it is a good step towards democracy and european integration, but also because it lifts the ban on dual citizenship. The solution lies in the cooperation of the armenians AND the diasporan armenians. Why we who fled a genocide should not be considered as armenians? Why should people call us "americans/french/lebanses with armenian origins" only? Give us citizenship, and the diasporans will slowly start to turn back to Armenia. Other than that.. let's wait 2007 (or 2008?) for the next presidential elections and we will see the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Sure the referendum was not very "democratic" but I think it is a good step even. The opposition doesn't present anything. Only a bunch of guys full of hatred against the actual president. Okay cut his head off, then what? Not having much of an opinion about this yet (but you bet my dad does) I can only say that I agree with Eloren, the opposition is a joke. This is what they wanted from the Armenian voters in LA - DON'T VOTE, or VOTE NO. When asked why, what don't they like about the constitution, the only think they can come up with is that they don't like the president. It is getting a bit too boring. (I guess this was just a bit of info for people like Vava who don't know the situation so well.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lev7 Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 In my opinion, Sure the referendum was not very "democratic" but I think it is a good step even. The opposition doesn't present anything. Only a bunch of guys full of hatred against the actual president. Okay cut his head off, then what? Nothing.. Or maybe another corrupted person will take his place. My wish was that this constitution would pass, not only because it is a good step towards democracy and european integration, but also because it lifts the ban on dual citizenship. The solution lies in the cooperation of the armenians AND the diasporan armenians. Why we who fled a genocide should not be considered as armenians? Why should people call us "americans/french/lebanses with armenian origins" only? Give us citizenship, and the diasporans will slowly start to turn back to Armenia. Other than that.. let's wait 2007 (or 2008?) for the next presidential elections and we will see the outcome. Very well said, I think dual citizenship will bring Diaspora and Armenia closer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 ...Sure the referendum was not very "democratic" but I think it is a good step even... ...it is a good step towards democracy and european integration... can you show me one point in the revised constitution that proves this? what does constitutional reform have to do with "democracy" or european integration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloren Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 can you show me one point in the revised constitution that proves this? what does constitutional reform have to do with "democracy" or european integration? Well, the constitution was studied by the European Council and they announced that it is a good step.. Also giving more power to the Parliament and less to the president IS more democratic.. The President is not King in a democratic country. except for that "border change" thing, i don't really see negative points in that constitution.. What is your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AraManoogian Posted December 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Eloren, you say that the referendum was not very “democratic” but you find it a good step in the right direction? First let me say that it was not “democratic” at all. It was a blatant violation of the rights of the citizens of Armenia, who didn’t go to vote, not because they didn’t want to go and vote “NO” to the referendum, but because from past experiences, they knew good and well that their “NO” vote would somehow be reported as a “YES” vote. I think for those that wanted to vote “NO” this was a very clever strategy and the Kocharian government has been finally caught. You talk about the actual president. Put the opposition that you speak of aside and there is a large part of the population today that does not consider Kocharian as the actual president. Everyone agrees that his re-election was also done fraudulently. And thought there has been very little turnout to the opposition demonstrations (though they have been growing), the fact that so many people didn’t go out and actually vote should tell us the desires of the people. Eloren, your wish was that this constitution would pass, not only because it is a good step towards democracy and European integration, but also because it lifts the ban on dual citizenship? First of all like I said before, there was nothing democratic as to the way it passed, so it has so far been a very bad step towards democracy. If we accept the passing in this way, then we set the example of what democracy in Armenia will be, which is of course not democracy at all. As for the ban on dual citizenship being lifted, don’t be fooled. There are going to be so many conditions set for dual citizens, that the present day 10-year “special residency status” passport that everyone is entitled to now, will give you probably the same rights. Most will still not have the right to vote or run for political office until they move to Armenia fulltime and that only after probably 5 years. If you think that you are not considered to be Armenian by the native Armenians because you live outside of Armenia, you’re wrong. The ones that don’t consider you “Armenian” in most cases are the same people who fix elections. Believe me, I am from America and live here and the native Armenians consider me to be Armenian. If you ask me, people who will only move to Armenia only if they get dual citizenship will not move to Armenia even if they do get it. I don’t have dual citizenship and have moved here. I feel just as secure as an Armenian here without it. Anoushik, tell your dad that what we don’t like about the constitutional amendments is that with them, the president is immune to prosecution from acts of the past, present and future that he has and will commit against the Armenian nation. This not only would include human rights offenses, but economic offenses. I think this would also give past presidents this same immunity. The other that bothers us is that the president has the right without a referendum to redraw our boarders. No president should have or need this kind of power if they are a good president. The long and short of it all is that the constitutional referendum was passed fraudulently (and well documented) and only for this and no other reason, it should be deemed null and void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloren Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Well I will not question what you said, you seem to know better But for the "democratic" part I meant the constitution itself is a good step. NOT the referendum. It's two distinct things. I just wish armenians stop complaining, weeping and looking behind at the past. I'd like a more active, dynamic country with people that want to go forth towards the future.. During my stay of 10 days in Armenia, i felt the population completely "defeated".. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AraManoogian Posted December 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Eloren, though I have witnessed people who complain and act as if there is no hope and they are defeated, the one thing that I’ve recently seen at the last demonstration were young people. Not just a couple, but a bunch of them (and expect many more on the 9th). They were not bitching and complaining, but were listening and measuring what has gone on. I got the feeling that the new generation after this last election has had enough and are ready possibly stand up for what is rightfully theirs. This is where we should concentrate our energy since there is a good chance that the young people could finally stand up and demand justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloren Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 Amen I just wish they don't "mess" up the country more than it is now with the "revolutions and stuff".. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazarian Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 Amen I just wish they don't "mess" up the country more than it is now with the "revolutions and stuff".. One needs to decide what the future of Armenia is. Is it going to be an authoritarian kleptocracy or a volatile democracy? I am for the latter option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AraManoogian Posted December 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2005 ARMENIA'S AMENDED CONSTITUTION ENTERS INTO FORCE Armenpress Dec 8 2005 YEREVAN, DECEMBER 8, ARMENPRESS: Armenian authorities announced on December 7 that the revised constitution, which according to official figures of the Central Election Commission (CEC), received the sweeping support of voters in the November 27 referendum, entered into force. The amended text of the constitution was published a day before by the official bulletin of the government and under the Armenian law the revised constitution enters into force the next day. Volodya Hovhanesian, the deputy chairman of the Constitutional Court, said, "since the results of the referendum were not protested within 7 days after the referendum date, the amended constitution enters into force after it is published by the bulletin." According to the CEC, around 1.5 million Armenian voters participated in the referendum of whom 93.3 percent backed the proposed amendments. The Armenian opposition that boycotted the referendum, however, claims the ballot was marred with serious breaches. It also claims that actually some 375,000 voters went to the polls which is not enough to meet the required threshold of voter turnout to consider the referendum valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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