Z'areh Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 European Armenian structures had no doubt that Turkey was going to be accepted for the initial negotiations, according to an interview in RFE/RL the ARF representative had no doubt that this latest haggling started by Austria was going to be solved in favour of Turkey one way or another, and he was right. The good thing about this whole issue of "acceptance" is that the liberal voices in Turkey will breathe a sigh of relief and feel somewhat freer to opinionate on thorny "security" or "honour" issues that otherwise would have been risky to accomplish. I think the European acceptance process can turn into an European dangling sword where people like Mr. Pamuk and like mined intellectuals will rely on to have the opportunity to educate the Turkish public in a proper manner, something the education ministry has failed for many decades, but regardless, a segment of this society has already decided to be educated anyway, whether the country's leadership likes it or not. Turkey in Europe? why not...if it benefits us. I cannot help but think that if Turkey cannot find a communication language with Armenia, and to me that means the recognition of genocide, she will not be ready enough to be a member of EU. Recognition means Turkish society has been given the chance to mature in every field. Armenia would be happy to have such a neighbour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armjan Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 European Armenian structures had no doubt that Turkey was going to be accepted for the initial negotiations, according to an interview in RFE/RL the ARF representative had no doubt that this latest haggling started by Austria was going to be solved in favour of Turkey one way or another, and he was right. The good thing about this whole issue of "acceptance" is that the liberal voices in Turkey will breathe a sigh of relief and feel somewhat freer to opinionate on thorny "security" or "honour" issues that otherwise would have been risky to accomplish. I think the European acceptance process can turn into an European dangling sword where people like Mr. Pamuk and like mined intellectuals will rely on to have the opportunity to educate the Turkish public in a proper manner, something the education ministry has failed for many decades, but regardless, a segment of this society has already decided to be educated anyway, whether the country's leadership likes it or not. Turkey in Europe? why not...if it benefits us. I cannot help but think that if Turkey cannot find a communication language with Armenia, and to me that means the recognition of genocide, she will not be ready enough to be a member of EU. Recognition means Turkish society has been given the chance to mature in every field. Armenia would be happy to have such a neighbour. style_images/master/snapback.png not sure i follow. how would turkey's inclusion in eu help the armenians? on the surface, it seems that they are empowered more than relieved... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 They shouldn't be allowed in the EU until they come completely clean with Armenia and the Armenians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 (edited) Armenian farmers might gain a lot by EU Turkey. First off Euro conversion will make everything more expensive to produce and export in Turkey hence Armenian farmers can sell their products to Turks with comparative prices rather at present where they dump all the cheap goods to Armenia. Think about that. More jobs for Armenians since we will make those refrigerators back to Turks instead of buying them now. I am not an economist but seeing Spain, Portugal loose enormous markets is real since it costs way too much to produce goods in Europe. Edited October 5, 2005 by Armat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 They shouldn't be allowed in the EU until they come completely clean with Armenia and the Armenians. style_images/master/snapback.png And who do you suppose is going to enforce that? The EU doesn't care about the genocide - they may use the issue as leverage in order to acquire other concessions from Turkey during negociations, but it definitely will not be point that any EU nation will stand behind steadfast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lev7 Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 Armenian farmers might gain a lot by EU Turkey. First off Euro conversion will make everything more expensive to produce and export in Turkey hence Armenian farmers can sell their products to Turks with comparative prices rather at present where they dump all the cheap goods to Armenia. Think about that. More jobs for Armenians since we will make those refrigerators back to Turks instead of buying them now. I am not an economist but seeing Spain, Portugal loose enormous markets is real since it costs way too much to produce goods in Europe. style_images/master/snapback.png I doubt Turkey will economically enter the EU that soon, they will have their shitty lira for a long time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z'areh Posted October 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 not sure i follow. how would turkey's inclusion in eu help the armenians? on the surface, it seems that they are empowered more than relieved... style_images/master/snapback.png Europe now has real grounds for demanding "things" from Turkey, and if the mood of the general population in Europe is true then a lot of things are going to be demanded from Turkey. Even Jack Straw said that there is a long way to go for Turkey to convince her opponents. It will be a grueling 80,000 page list of changes that Turkey has to accept. Fundamental changes that the Europeans are going to be looking for are going to be in the domain of human rights, freedom of speech, elimination of torture etc...This is where Armenians can benefit form, because only in an open and free atmosphere can the Armenian genocide issue be truly discussed. In a way the Armenian issue can act as a catalyst to transform the Turkish society, it can have positive effects in eliminating a stale but embedded "top-down" dictating traditions in many internal social and economic issues. One thing people also forget or ignore is the Russian factor. Western Analysts' myopic views of Turkey falling prey to Islamist fundamentalism are grossly exaggerated or are intentionally expressed to mislead public opinions. I think Russia will always be there to "Pick up" the political pieces-so to speak- if Europe turns its back against Turkey. I can just see Armenia being pushed aside and watch Russia drool over possible "friendship" with Turkey. There are many reasons to believe that this could happen. Turkey will never jeopardize her relationship with the US, but will gladly play cards with Russia to extract maximum gains at least for Azerbaijan. Russia will gladly do everything in the hopes of winning over a "negleted" Turkey. That is why I say, why not Turkey in Europe. It could work for Armenia's advantage....Both in keeping Russian interests in Armenia while benefiting from social/economic changes in Turkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted October 6, 2005 Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 Both in keeping Russian interests in Armenia while benefiting from social/economic changes in Turkey. Hmmm.... Thats a good thought. What are the reasons Armenian groups in Europe oppose Turkish membership? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armjan Posted October 6, 2005 Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 (edited) Europe now has real grounds for demanding "things" from Turkey, and if the mood of the general population in Europe is true then a lot of things are going to be demanded from Turkey. Even Jack Straw said that there is a long way to go for Turkey to convince her opponents. It will be a grueling 80,000 page list of changes that Turkey has to accept. Fundamental changes that the Europeans are going to be looking for are going to be in the domain of human rights, freedom of speech, elimination of torture etc...This is where Armenians can benefit form, because only in an open and free atmosphere can the Armenian genocide issue be truly discussed. In a way the Armenian issue can act as a catalyst to transform the Turkish society, it can have positive effects in eliminating a stale but embedded "top-down" dictating traditions in many internal social and economic issues. One thing people also forget or ignore is the Russian factor. Western Analysts' myopic views of Turkey falling prey to Islamist fundamentalism are grossly exaggerated or are intentionally expressed to mislead public opinions. I think Russia will always be there to "Pick up" the political pieces-so to speak- if Europe turns its back against Turkey. I can just see Armenia being pushed aside and watch Russia drool over possible "friendship" with Turkey. There are many reasons to believe that this could happen. Turkey will never jeopardize her relationship with the US, but will gladly play cards with Russia to extract maximum gains at least for Azerbaijan. Russia will gladly do everything in the hopes of winning over a "negleted" Turkey. That is why I say, why not Turkey in Europe. It could work for Armenia's advantage....Both in keeping Russian interests in Armenia while benefiting from social/economic changes in Turkey. style_images/master/snapback.png i'm afraid i don't see how this helps armenians/armenia changes in turkey help turkey, it helps their stance in the international community, doesn't do a damn thing for us. I don't think/believe that Turkey will ever accept the armenian genocide as it occured, b/c it will mean to give lands back. we have two conflicting views(armenians vs turks), when one gets a stronger stance, they will constraint the other. think of it this way, if Europe begins to have economic , strategic, and political dependencies with Turkey, then Europe is less likey to want to cause waves between their relationship with Turkey. So armenian interests will be overlooked. Just think of how many times you've heard people on this forum complain about turkeys relationship with western allies being the reason why they overlook the armenian genocide. From what i've seen online, I really think that most turks hate armenians. They have a knife now, and their about to get a freakin RPG, don't look good for us... Edited October 6, 2005 by armjan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z'areh Posted October 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 i'm afraid i don't see how this helps armenians/armenia changes in turkey help turkey, it helps their stance in the international community, doesn't do a damn thing for us. I don't think/believe that Turkey will ever accept the armenian genocide as it occured, b/c it will mean to give lands back. we have two conflicting views(armenians vs turks), when one gets a stronger stance, they will constraint the other. think of it this way, if Europe begins to have economic , strategic, and political dependencies with Turkey, then Europe is less likey to want to cause waves between their relationship with Turkey. So armenian interests will be overlooked. Just think of how many times you've heard people on this forum complain about turkeys relationship with western allies being the reason why they overlook the armenian genocide. From what i've seen online, I really think that most turks hate armenians. They have a knife now, and their about to get a freakin RPG, don't look good for us... style_images/master/snapback.png Turkey, as we know, is highly unlikely to accept the Armenian genocide, and it is also highly unlikely that the UK, a mouthpiece of the US politics in Europe (Azg, oct.6),will want to switch sides in our favour.. If they Turkey can get away with starting the talks without recognizing Cyprus, they can conceivably get away with not accepting the Armenian genocide and still become a member. That much was clear from witnessing the circus instigated by the UK and the US….with a little help of our Jewish friends. However, it is important to underline that our AG issue has found a natural ally with the overwhelming European convulsion with the idea of having Turkey as an equal member amongst their ranks. The so-called Anglo-Saxon/Jewish entities in Europe might find a hard-line opposition with the Latin/Slavic entities, and the AG issue will obviously be used as a weapon to combat those forces friendlier towards Turkey. How can that harm us? As for RPGs, Turkey already has more than RPGs (politically speaking), they have the equivalent to ballistic missiles, they don’t need the EU to be stronger. What EU membership gives us is a chance to penetrate the core of the Turkish society, and only they, the Turks, can change things from within, that eventually will be acceptable to us. And how can that be harmful to us? BTW, European Armenians have never said Turkey should not be a member of EU, they have said THIS Turkey should not be a member to the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verginne Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 What's all this talk about turkey being a "neighbor"???? I don't see turkey's future as neighbor to anyone except in the Mongolian environs. There is no benefit for turkey in the EU unless we want revenge against Europe for their part in the AG because turkey in the EU means the end of Europe and European civilization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Possibly making things intolerable for this Europe, would bring out a sense of nationalism and ethnic pride in European nations. "European civilization" is ended, it may or may not come back. By the way, I don't really call it "European civilization", since "Europe" is mostly a social construct. I use the term "occidental". Occidental civilization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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