Aram I Visit To North America

[karakash]

Anyone participating in this visit by Aram I to North America this month and next.

 

www.armenianprelacy.org

[Dave]

He will be in Montreal this weekend.

 

http://www.armenianprelacy.ca/home.htm

[Dave]

He always mentions that we are different from the rest.

 

Menk darper enk!

[karakash]

He always mentions that we are different from the rest.

 

Menk darper enk!

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

In what sense are we different from the rest?

 

He is a much better speaker than Karekin II. Aram I is a protege of Karekin I and tries to be like him. No one can come close to Karekin I. He was one of the most highly educated members of the clergy. His oratorical skills were unparalleled.

[karakash]

Anyone go to the church services in NYC on Sunday, October 23 or to the dinner at The Pierre?

[Arpa]

Anyone go to the church services in NYC on Sunday, October 23 or to the dinner at The Pierre?

So!

Did Aram Keshishoglu say when he is going to move the Armenian Parliament and the presidency to Antelias?

Speaking of eloquence. Have you read his biography and see where he got his (eloquent) theological education?

Once again, speaking of eloquence, I guess you are referring to the time when Garegin I told a Nasreddin anecdote right from the pulpit, throwing in some Turkish words for embelishment? He thought it was funny. Some parishioners thought it was funny. Me? I slid under the pew wishing I would melt away and never again hear such crudely Turkish culture promoted at our gatherings, never mind our pulpits.

At least Garegin I had the decency to have an Armenian surname. What is Aram's excuse for having a Turkish surname, pejorative one no less.

For those who don't know, "keshish" is a pejorative Turkish word to mean "priest".

 

We need one more Catholicos like a hole in the head.

When are we going to declare an idependent Armenian Republic of Antelias?

Edited October 24, 2005 by Arpa

[Takoush]

When are we going to declare an idependent Armenian Republic of Antelias?

When you Arpa would declare yourself either the King or the President of Antelias for Armenians. Continuing right where Levon the Vth left off. Arpa!

[Arpa]

When you Arpa would declare yourself either the King or the President of Antelias for Armenians. Continuing right where Levon the Vth left off. Arpa!

No.

You!

You already have the title of Taguhi, all you have to do is change your name to Zabel.

[Takoush]

No.

You!

You already have the title of Taguhi, all you have to do is change your name to Zabel.

Ver funny Arpa. Why Zabel?

Edited October 27, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Arpa]

Ver funny Arpa. Why Zabel?

 

Wasn't that the name of Levon VI 's Taguhi?

Edit. Actually I lied

Zabel was the daughter of Levon II who later married Hethoum.

Some day I may write about her.

 

In fact here she is;

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gaze...KURARM/29*.html

Edited October 24, 2005 by Arpa

[Takoush]

Wasn't that the name of Levon VI 's Taguhi?

I see!

Edited October 25, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

No.

You!

You already have the title of Taguhi, all you have to do is change your name to Zabel.

Arpa;

 

Cooking is definitely an art, and art is surely part of culture.

 

A family friend once have told me that when Armenians get together they are for sure to talk about two things:

 

A. About politics, and

 

B. About food

Edited October 27, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

No.

You!

You already have the title of Taguhi, all you have to do is change your name to Zabel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Arpa:

 

Please don't assume the worst and call me anything but desirable. I don't know about you or some of the guys in here, whether you or they are gentlemen or not. I am hoping that most of them are; however I am a lady and in the best kind. If me and my husband are hospitable and when people are inviting themselves, then of course our doors will be open to them, REMEMBER THAT. But don't you ever assume of anything but the good, the moral and the ethical in me that I am and that I have always been for certain, or you'll make an ass of yourself.

Edited October 29, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[karakash]

So!

Did Aram Keshishoglu say when he is going to move the Armenian Parliament and the presidency to Antelias?

Speaking of eloquence. Have you read his biography and see where he got his (eloquent) theological education?

Once again, speaking of eloquence, I guess you are referring to the time when Garegin I told a Nasreddin anecdote right from the pulpit, throwing in some Turkish words for embelishment? He thought it was funny. Some parishioners thought it was funny. Me? I slid under the pew wishing I would melt away and never again hear such crudely Turkish culture promoted at our gatherings, never mind our pulpits.

At least Garegin I had the decency to have an Armenian surname. What is Aram's excuse for having a Turkish surname, pejorative one no less.

For those who don't know, "keshish" is a pejorative Turkish word to mean "priest".

 

We need one more Catholicos like a hole in the head.

When are we going to declare an idependent Armenian Republic of Antelias?

 

I'm curious - when and where did Karekin I give this sermon?

[karakash]

I went to the conference in Detroit during the weekend of Dec 2 and 3, 2006. The conference was organized by the Eastern, Western and Canadian Prelacies and was entitled: Your Church. Your Future. Engage. Aram Vehapar was the key note speaker and had requested this meeting with the youth.

[Armenak]

I went to the conference in Detroit during the weekend of Dec 2 and 3, 2006. The conference was organized by the Eastern, Western and Canadian Prelacies and was entitled: Your Church. Your Future. Engage. Aram Vehapar was the key note speaker and had requested this meeting with the youth.

Well, what did you think?

 

http://www.armenianprelacy.org/vehgatherhome.htm

[karakash]

He was preaching to the choir. Everyone there is already involved. It should have been more for people who are not that involved with the Armenian Church.

[karakash]

A FEW PERSPECTIVES

FOR THE RENEWAL OF THE ARMENIAN CHURCH

(Dialogue with the youth- Number 7)

 

2-3 December 2006 were marked in my pontifical ministry with my encounter

and open dialogue with the Armenian youth. This Youth Gathering took place

in Detroit and was organized on the occasion of my short visit to the USA.

I want to express my deep appreciation to His Eminence Archbishop Oshagan

Choloyan, Prelate of Easter Diocese, His Eminence Archbishop Khajag

Hagopian, Prelate of Canada and His Eminence Archbishop Moushegh

Mardirossian, Prelate of Western Diocese, for taking this initiative as an

essential part of their pastoral responsibility. My special appreciation is

due to those young adults who came from different parts of North America to

attend the youth event.

The renewal of the Armenian Church was the core of this gathering. In my

dialogue with the youth I touched on a number of issues and identified

challenges pertaining to this pertinent theme. By carefully listening to

them, I became more aware of their expectations as well as of their

unwavering dedication to our Church and its values and traditions.

Upon my return to Antelias, I would like to share succinctly with the

Armenian youth of other communities some of the major perspectives that I

conveyed to the youth in Detroit.

1) The renewal of the Armenian Church is an urgent necessity. In order to

carry on its God-given mission efficiently, our Church is called to keep

pace with the changing conditions of modern societies. Therefore, the

question is not why renewal, but rather how renewal? (In my book, Beyond the

1700th Anniversary (2001), I have already addressed basic issues concerning

the renewal of the Armenian Church). The renewal of our Church will not be

accomplished simply by shortening the liturgy and introducing certain

adjustments within the church structures. This perception must be changed.

Renewal is not easy; it is a long, critical and all-embracing process. The

Church's total life in its institutional and spiritual, theological and

liturgical dimensions and manifestation must be included in any serious

renewal process.

2) The Armenian Church must become more responsive to the new realities,

concerns and challenges of its specific environment. This is, indeed, a

vital feature of renewal. We are living in a new world. Tremendous changes

are taking place in our immediate milieu. The Church must be neither

indifferent nor reactive. In order to be relevant and reliable, the Church

must respond proactively to the imperatives of changing times and

circumstances, remaining firmly attached to its own identity and vocation.

It is vitally important that in the Church's response, the global and the

contextual be interwoven in a way that the unity and integrity of the

Armenian Church are preserved intact and solid.

3) Being in dialogue with its environment implies meeting the expectations

and needs of the people and seeking solutions to their problems. The world

today is marked by growing anxieties and despair. People are caught in

turmoil; they are in search of meaning and direction. They are facing in

their daily life ethical, moral and social questions and dilemmas related to

sexual orientation, family, marriage, spiritual life, etc., which require

clear guidance. Our Church cannot remain silent. Globalization has made the

inter-dependence of humanity even more acute and existential. Others'

concerns are our concerns and the other way round. The Armenian Church must

deal with socio-ethical issues with utmost care and sensitivity.

4) The Church must give priority to the promotion of spiritual values. These

values come to us from the Bible and the Apostolic tradition, from our

church fathers, from our liturgy and traditions. Those who say that the

Armenian Church has no spirituality or gives no attention to it are mistaken

and misguided. Every church has its own ways and forms of expressing

spirituality. We must beware of 'cheap' and 'false' spiritualities that

surround us, often with 'attractive' forms and expressions. We must stick to

our own spirituality which is so rich and profound. We must renew our own

spirituality by making it more compatible with new conditions.

5) Christian education must occupy a central place in the renewal of the

Church. By Christian education I do not understand only formal education but

basically Christian formation that must start in the family. By Christian

education I also mean re-Christianization of our people. In a world

dominated by secularism and materialism, the Christian values are often

pushed to the periphery of our life. We have become nominal Christians. Our

Church must take the re-evangelism of its people seriously. Our missionary

outreach must be perceived and practiced essentially as an inreach. True

renewal is re-evangielization and transformation of the community of faith.

6) The reformation of liturgy is an area of particular and immediate

concern. Any attempt to introduce changes in the liturgy - shortening the

text, changing the language, introducing new prayers, editing the texts,

etc. - must be made on the basis of well-established criteria and clear

guidelines. Arbitrary, superficial and one-sided approach to the liturgy may

become counter-productive. The inner unity, integrity and particularity of

the Armenian liturgy must be preserved.

7) Clergy has a crucial part to play in the renewal of the Armenian Church.

In order to renew our Church our clergy must be renewed. We need a clergy

who are well versed in Armenian Church history and theology as well as in

contemporary theology; who have a comprehensive knowledge of the context in

which they are called to exercise their pastoral ministry; who, driven by

ecumenical vision, are engaged in dialogue and collaboration with other

churches; who are courageous enough to take the Gospel to our people in

response to the new challenges of modern societies and in faithfulness to

the values and spiritual and theological heritage of the Armenian Church.

Our Church in the 21st Century needs a clergy for the 21st Century.

8) We must embark on a kind of renewal process which takes our Church beyond

its institutional confines and makes it a dynamic reality in the life of our

people. The Armenian Church must become a missionary church through

Christian education, pastoral work, social service and living spirituality.

This is only an outline of some major issues, concerns and challenges that

must be considered in the renewal of our Church. Renewal must be carried on

carefully and in an organized manner. Holistic and contextual, realistic and

pragmatic approaches, in their coherent interconnectedness, must become the

driving force and the guiding principle of a credible renewal. A committee

representing the Hierarchical Sees of the Armenian Church is already in

formation to lead the renewal process.

The youth are called to play an important role in this respect. With their

perspectives and experiences they can significantly contribute to all

efforts aimed at making the Armenian Church a church for the 21st century.

We must give space to the youth in our Church. They are integral and vital

part of the Church's life and witness. I have strong confidence in our

youth.

 

 

ARAM I

 

CATHOLICOS OF CILICIA

 

15 December 2006

Antelias-Lebanon

[Arpa]

A FEW PERSPECTIVES

FOR THE RENEWAL OF THE ARMENIAN CHURCH

(Dialogue with the youth- Number 7)conveyed to the youth in Detroit.

====

1) The renewal of the Armenian Church is an urgent necessity. In order to

carry on its God-given mission efficiently, our Church is called to keep

pace with the changing conditions of modern societies. Therefore, the

question is not why renewal, but rather how renewal? (In my book, Beyond the

1700th Anniversary (2001), I have already addressed basic issues concerning

the renewal of the Armenian Church). The renewal of our Church will not be

accomplished simply by shortening the liturgy and introducing certain

adjustments within the church structures. This perception must be changed.

Renewal is not easy; it is a long, critical and all-embracing process. The

Church's total life in its institutional and spiritual, theological and

liturgical dimensions and manifestation must be included in any serious

renewal process.

2) The Armenian Church must become more responsive to the new realities,

concerns and challenges of its specific environment. This is, indeed, a

vital feature of renewal. We are living in a new world. Tremendous changes

are taking place in our immediate milieu. The Church must be neither

indifferent nor reactive. In order to be relevant and reliable, the Church

must respond proactively to the imperatives of changing times and

circumstances, remaining firmly attached to its own identity and vocation.

It is vitally important that in the Church's response, the global and the

contextual be interwoven in a way that the unity and integrity of the

Armenian Church are preserved intact and solid.

3) Being in dialogue with its environment implies meeting the expectations

and needs of the people and seeking solutions to their problems. The world

today is marked by growing anxieties and despair. People are caught in

turmoil; they are in search of meaning and direction. They are facing in

their daily life ethical, moral and social questions and dilemmas related to

sexual orientation, family, marriage, spiritual life, etc., which require

clear guidance. Our Church cannot remain silent. Globalization has made the

inter-dependence of humanity even more acute and existential. Others'

concerns are our concerns and the other way round. The Armenian Church must

deal with socio-ethical issues with utmost care and sensitivity.

4) The Church must give priority to the promotion of spiritual values. These

values come to us from the Bible and the Apostolic tradition, from our

church fathers, from our liturgy and traditions. Those who say that the

Armenian Church has no spirituality or gives no attention to it are mistaken

and misguided. Every church has its own ways and forms of expressing

spirituality. We must beware of 'cheap' and 'false' spiritualities that

surround us, often with 'attractive' forms and expressions. We must stick to

our own spirituality which is so rich and profound. We must renew our own

spirituality by making it more compatible with new conditions.

5) Christian education must occupy a central place in the renewal of the

Church. By Christian education I do not understand only formal education but

basically Christian formation that must start in the family. By Christian

education I also mean re-Christianization of our people. In a world

dominated by secularism and materialism, the Christian values are often

pushed to the periphery of our life. We have become nominal Christians. Our

Church must take the re-evangelism of its people seriously. Our missionary

outreach must be perceived and practiced essentially as an inreach. True

renewal is re-evangielization and transformation of the community of faith.

6) The reformation of liturgy is an area of particular and immediate

concern. Any attempt to introduce changes in the liturgy - shortening the

text, changing the language, introducing new prayers, editing the texts,

etc. - must be made on the basis of well-established criteria and clear

guidelines. Arbitrary, superficial and one-sided approach to the liturgy may

become counter-productive. The inner unity, integrity and particularity of

the Armenian liturgy must be preserved.

7) Clergy has a crucial part to play in the renewal of the Armenian Church.

In order to renew our Church our clergy must be renewed. We need a clergy

who are well versed in Armenian Church history and theology as well as in

contemporary theology; who have a comprehensive knowledge of the context in

which they are called to exercise their pastoral ministry; who, driven by

ecumenical vision, are engaged in dialogue and collaboration with other

churches; who are courageous enough to take the Gospel to our people in

response to the new challenges of modern societies and in faithfulness to

the values and spiritual and theological heritage of the Armenian Church.

Our Church in the 21st Century needs a clergy for the 21st Century.

8) We must embark on a kind of renewal process which takes our Church beyond

its institutional confines and makes it a dynamic reality in the life of our

people. The Armenian Church must become a missionary church through

Christian education, pastoral work, social service and living spirituality.

This is only an outline of some major issues, concerns and challenges that

must be considered in the renewal of our Church. Renewal must be carried on

carefully and in an organized manner. Holistic and contextual, realistic and

pragmatic approaches, in their coherent interconnectedness, must become the

driving force and the guiding principle of a credible renewal. A committee

representing the Hierarchical Sees of the Armenian Church is already in

formation to lead the renewal process.

The youth are called to play an important role in this respect. With their

perspectives and experiences they can significantly contribute to all

efforts aimed at making the Armenian Church a church for the 21st century.

We must give space to the youth in our Church. They are integral and vital

part of the Church's life and witness. I have strong confidence in our

youth.

ARAM I

 

CATHOLICOS OF CILICIA

 

15 December 2006

Antelias-Lebanon

Yes, dear Sevunk, as you put it, He is preaching to the choir.

Does not this sound like a somewhat delayed reaction?

To be exact , delayed by some 150 years?

Is this not what those so called Protestants were trying to say in the yera 1846?

Better educated clergy, tending to the flock’s spiritual and social needs?

If we were to go by Aanahid Takouhi’s logic anyone holding a PhD is fit to be Catholicos., regardless if that PhD may be about Congolese cannibals .

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12948&hl=ashjian

Speaking of delayed reaction. Why does it take for some of us to finally realize what the real issues are?

Why do we have to wait and see why many in the Homeland are toying with the idea of joining those idiotic cults to see and learn the real message of the Gospels? The real message of the Gospel is not physical, like crossing one’s face every time one yawns or sneezes, those are (pagan)superstitions, not spiritual Christian religion. We can write tomes and books about the subject as to how one can inherit heaven with donating zillions of dollars to the church, or hold a hogehangist and qarasunq for the dearly departed, pray that that dearly departed may be given a space in heaven regardless the fact that that dearly departed may have broken most or all the Commandments like adultery, murder, avarice, perjury, thievery …. et al?

A Satan on earth and a saint in heaven?

HH Aram I may have finally realized, even if belatedly that living a satanic life on earth, albeit practicing all the physical duties of the faith will not guarantee us a place in heaven unless we practice the Message of the Gospels here on Earth?

Are you sure HH Aram I is not a closet “Protestant”?

I am not well versed in HH Garegin II’s theological and academic credentials. See HH Aram’s credentials here;

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=70...;hl=protestants

What He is advocating is Evolution, probably to try and avert a Revolution as happened 150 years ago in Polis.

Revolutions happen overnight, often accompanied with blood and destruction, remember the Lousavorichian Revolution?

Evolution takes a little longer.

Is not 1700 years enough time for it to happen?

And after so many years of isolation , 1700 to be exact He is trying to join WCC, World Council of Churches. Was He not the chairman of that council some time ago? Is He still? Let us revise that acronym and call it WCC- World Council of Christians. Where does the Armenian Church fit in there?

Or, according to some of my neighbors- Which Mosque do Armenians go on Friday?

Edited December 21, 2006 by Arpa

[phantom22]

Aram I sits on the Central Committee of the WCC. He is working within the mainstream of a predominantly Protestant organization. Zarehavan's legacy is becoming real. All the souls whose bodies were extinguished by the Armenian nobility are still here in spirit influencing the present.

[annannimusss]

Arpa,he studied in the places below.And most of the new chruch leaders have a great education,like our Arch-bishop Hovnan Derderian studied at Yale.

 

 

Catholicos Karekin II (Armenian: Գարեգին Բ also Garegin) is the current head of the Holy Armenian Apostolic Church.

 

 

His Holiness Karekin II, Catholicos and Supreme Patriarch of All ArmeniansHe was born as Krtich Nersessian in Voskehat, Armenia on August 21, 1951. He entered the seminary in 1965 and graduated with honors in 1971. Before that he became a deacon in 1970. Later he became a monk and was ordained priest in 1972. In the late 1970s the Catholicos of that period encouraged him to study outside of Armenia. This led to him continuing his studies in Vienna, Bonn University, and Zagorsk, Russia. After 1979 he became significant to the people of Armenia and on October 23, 1983 was consecrated bishop at Echmiadzin. He became an archbishop in 1992.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karekin_II

[karakash]

Aram I was the Moderator of the WCC for two terms - a total of 14 years - from what I remember. His term ended in 2005 or 2006.

 

I and about six or seven others sat with him for dinner at the Detroit Youth Conference on Dec 2. He actually was a very engaging speaker and he answered all of our questions. A national church vs. a nationalistic church, unity, good vs. evil, light and darkness, the language of the liturgy - all were great topics that were brought up. He gave thorough answers in impecable English.

[Armenak]

Well if he's that great maybe they should put him in Echmiadzin like they did with Karekin I.

[karakash]

Well if he's that great maybe they should put him in Echmiadzin like they did with Karekin I.

 

That will never happen. Karekin II and Aram I are both around the same age. It's highly unlike that (1) Karekin II will die young and (2) Aram I will jump from Antelias to Etchmiadzin. The only reason Karekin Sarkissian won in 1995 was because Levon Ter-Petrosyan lobbied heavily on his behalf. Before the final round of voting, the current Catholicos, Karekin Nercissian, was ahead in the vote count.

 

The next election will be for Patriarch in Jerusalem. Torkom Manoogian is going to be 88 in February and is not in good health. I would bet that Archbishop Noorhan Manoogian becomes the next Patriarch in Jerusalem.

[annannimusss]

Archbishop Torkom Manoogian is very much loved here on the West Coast,especially by the thousands of kids and now adults who attended and still attend the church camp that he bought in the 1960's I think.Which is many years before I was born.I hope his replacement in the coming years will be as good as Arch-Bishop as he is.

 

http://www.hyecamp.com/