Armenian Tamanian Division

[gamavor]

http://www.armenica.org/history/mov/arm_in_berlin/img.jpg

 

http://www.armenica.org/history/mov/arm_in...n/index-en.html

[Harut]

nice... thanks...

[Azat]

great clip. thanks Gams

[Boghos]

Excellent.

[Accelerated]

yeah, good stuff

[Accelerated]

some famous tunes from the war here: http://www.eng.9may.ru/eng_songs/

[Zartonk]

Nice one gam jan. Do I love the Kochari. Have you seen the memorial statue in Yerevan of the soldiers dancing? Edited May 12, 2005 by Zartonk

[skhara]

Great find! Thanks gamavor .

[shaunt]

My dad had 2 uncles go MIA (probably died) while fighting in Berlin. Maybe they were part of this division? I guess we'll never know.

 

And also, were those soldiers excited because they captured Berlin, or were they excited because they just finished raping Deutsche frauen? Another thing we will never know.

[TMNT]

And also, were those soldiers excited because they captured Berlin, or were they excited because they just finished raping Deutsche frauen? Another thing we will never know.

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Yes, I am sure you also believe that the decision to level Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the only "bloodless" alternative to invading the Japanese mainland. I just love the righteous attitude of Americans, Russian soldiers raped German women; therefore, their contribution to the war effort should be downplayed. Shaunt, I don’t disagree with you, invading soldiers will rape, loot, and plunder, it is a potent psychological weapon, but please do not use that as an excuse to downplay the contribution of the Soviet army during WW2. They won the war, we didn’t, get over it.

Edited May 15, 2005 by TMNT

[gamavor]

Turks and Americans are very "brave" when it comes to killing civilians. I laugh every time when Americans say that "they won the War" (WWII). The truth is that they have never won any war, except the Independance War.

[Dave]

Was the Kochari music added for the documentary clip, or was it used in Berlin in 1945?

 

edit: I just saw the soldier who was holding the instrument.

Edited May 15, 2005 by Dave

[skhara]

Turks and Americans are very "brave" when it comes to killing civilians. I laugh every time when Americans say that "they won the War" (WWII).  The truth is that they have never won any war, except the Independance War.

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Mexican war. Spanish-American war.

[gamavor]

Mexican war.  Spanish-American war.

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Yes. Sorry, I missed that one. They won one of the Mexican-American wars.

[shaunt]

Mexican war.  Spanish-American war.

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Barbary Wars. WWI.

[gamavor]

Barbary Wars. WWI.

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Clarify???

 

I don't think getting on the bandwagon in the last moment qualifies as victory.

[shaunt]

Clarify???

 

I don't think getting on the bandwagon in the last moment qualifies as victory.

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So the British and French won the war?

 

It was not a bandwagon decision. You have to see this in the context of American politics, and security. Judging the action alone will not solve anything. Regardless, that "last moment" they became involved would've been the last moment for Britain and France, not for the Germans. It wasn't as if Germany was losing, and America decided to capitalize on this fact. The war was carried on the backs of American soldiers.

 

But obviously things changed with WWII. Each of the major allied powers were contributing equally to the war effort. I have never stated that the US won WWII. WWII was won by the allies, not by any one nation. Because if you were to substract either Britain, USSR, or the US from the war equation, the allies would most likely have lost. Without Britain's involvement, the Western front ceases to exist. Without the USSR, the Eastern front ceases to exist. Without the US you have less allied forces on both the Eastern and Western fronts.

[gamavor]

So the British and French won the war?

 

It was not a bandwagon decision. You have to see this in the context of American politics, and security. Judging the action alone will not solve anything.  Regardless, that "last moment" they became involved would've been the last moment for Britain and France, not for the Germans. It wasn't as if Germany was losing, and America decided to capitalize on this fact. The war was carried on the backs of American soldiers. 

 

But obviously things changed with WWII. Each of the major allied powers were contributing equally to the war effort. I have never stated that the US won WWII. WWII was won by the allies, not by any one nation. Because if you were to substract either Britain, USSR, or the US from the war equation, the allies would most likely have lost. Without Britain's involvement, the Western front ceases to exist. Without the USSR, the Eastern front ceases to exist. Without the US you have less allied forces on both the Eastern and Western fronts.

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Shaunt, don't make me laugh please!!! Germany has thrown 10 times, yes 10 times more manpower, equipment and logistics to the Eastern front than to the West. USSR alone gave 25 million cassualties. Just compare those figures with the loses of France, Britain and USA together and look how rediculous is it to claim that war effort was equally distributed.

 

What really America and Western countries were REALLY instrumental for the war effort, were the military supplies and aid to USSR and no one denyies that.

[Armenian Highlander]

If it wasn't for Hitler's stupid strategic blunders, we all would be speaking German now.

 

Germany lost the war because the Nazi leadership did not give the military leadership of the Third Reich freedom to conduct the war the way it should have been conducted.

 

Germany lost the war because it did not try to win the "hearts and minds" of the avarage Soviet citizen, who at the time of the invasion, was suffering greatly under Stalin's oppression.

 

Germany lost the war because its early military successes stretched its manpower and material resources to critical levels.

 

Final analysis, it was Hitler's ill conceived decision to attack the USSR that broke the Nazi war machine.

 

The finest American, French and English troops were no match for any German combat unit at the time. The capability and moral of the German Wehrmacht far surpassed anything fielded by the allies.

 

The question remains: Had the Germans defeated the USSR, would Drastamat Kanayan and company been able to administer Armenia properly?

[shaunt]

Just compare those figures with the loses of France, Britain and USA together and look how rediculous is it to claim that war effort was equally distributed.

 

So the fact that 1) the Soviets were incompetant and 2) the geography of Eastern Europe called for a type of warfare that involved more manpower should serve as testaments to the fact that they contributed more to the war effort?

[Accelerated]

The Wehrmacht sustained 79% of all its losses on the Eastern Front.

[gamavor]

So the fact that 1) the Soviets were incompetant and 2) the geography of Eastern Europe called for a type of warfare that involved more manpower should serve as testaments to the fact that they contributed more to the war effort?

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I never claimed that Soviets were very competent! Simply the War on the Eastern Front have had very different face compared to what happened in Western Europe and North Africa. Up until 1942 there was no war effort at all from the "allies".

I don't know of any city or town in western Europe that was beseiged or resisted for more than 2-3 weeks. France capitulated in a metter of days.

[Anahit]

The question remains: Had the Germans defeated the USSR, would Drastamat Kanayan and company been able to administer Armenia properly?

 

No. the germans whould have killed them (Drastamat Kanayan and company ), and forced Armenia into their own administration or even worse: let turkey swallow Armenia for once and forever! one should never have any illusions when it comes to nation-killers: the nazies.

[TMNT]

No. the germans whould have killed them (Drastamat Kanayan and company ), and forced Armenia into their own administration or even worse: let turkey swallow Armenia for once and forever! one should never have any illusions when it comes to nation-killers: the nazies.

 

As I recall the Allies did win the First World War and in fact, did let Turkey swallow the first republic. We didn't have to wait till WW2, we were already screwed.

 

As far as who won the war is concerned, in my opinion it still is the Soviets, to be more specific, the geographic location of Russia and the shear man power of the Soviet army was the nail in the coffin. Historically, Russia has always solved Europe’s problems. The Golden Horde, Napoleon, and various other threats to Europe have always been stopped at Russia. No army stands a chance against the Russian burn policy.

 

I just resent the fact that Americans continually downplay the contributions of Soviet divisions like the Tamanian in order to bolster their Capitalistic ideals. Ever since WW2, the justification of the U.S. foreign policy revolves around "spreading democracy", omitting the fact that if communism/socialism spread they would lose access to global markets. Let us be honest with ourselves, the Soviets contributed far more in terms of resources. Yes, the allies did supply them, but without the Soviet man power they would have lost.

 

This begs the question, why is it ok for Turkey, which was an Axis power and committed atrocities far beyond rape, to participate in the Gallipoli commemoration, but yet the "vile" Soviets should be excluded in WW2 commemorations? Please explain the logic behind this? Oh, wait, could it be politically motivated, a cheap attempt to downplay communism? Yes

 

Conclusion, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it". Armenians need to stop putting their problems on the shoulders of foreign powers. With that said, I am wondering why Armenia has sent an 80 man team to Israel. I am assuming, begging is now a part of the Armenian foreign policy.

Edited May 16, 2005 by TMNT

[Nakharar]

I never claimed that Soviets were very competent! Simply the War on the Eastern Front have had very different face compared to what happened in Western Europe and North Africa. Up until 1942 there was no war effort at all from the "allies".

I don't know of any city or town in western Europe that was beseiged or resisted for more than 2-3 weeks. France capitulated in a metter of days.

 

Yes I can't think of another nation which has resisted such an overwhelming force as the Wehrmacht in St. Petersburg for three years when the city was cut off from all sides except the frozen Baltic sea and lost 1 million civilian people during this onslaught.

 

Or the Battle of Stalingrad where the Soviets continued to fight ferociously despite that 90 percent of the city was occupied by the Nazis and all hope was seemingly lost.