TMNT Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 http://www.sarkissianmason.com/denial/ At this point, I can't even describe it as "denial". If these are the the "progressive", "western", and "secular"" Turks that want to join the European Union then how "barbaric", "hypocritical", and "dishonest" are regular "barbaric", "hypocritical", and "dishonest" Turks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beste Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 Well, whatever happened in the past (during Ottoman Empire epoche), genocide or not. BUT, WHY IS TURKEY BEING BROUGTH INTO THESE? I hope you all have a piece of information about this point that: Turkey DO NOT continue Ottomans! So please, have it in your mind and do not ever forget! okplzthanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 The sad thing is, in the local medai this gathering of 300+ Turks in front of the White House got as much attention at the processions of many thousands in Yerevan and elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 Yes, but the modern Turkey wont even recognise that a Genocide took place under the Ottomans.....And by your measure, the post-WW2 Germany should not be held accountable for the attrocoties commited by the Nazis? Just because there has been a change in government, from 'Thrird Reich' to 'German Republic'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 Betse, you are simply an idiot! now get the hell out of here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 I hope you all have a piece of information about this point that: Turkey DO NOT continue Ottomans! So please, have it in your mind and do not ever forget! okplzthanks! This is exactly my line of reasoning: So if the so-called "modern" turks are not succesors of the Ottoman Empire, what the hell you are doing in the former Ottoman Empire territory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beste Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 This is exactly my line of reasoning: So if the so-called "modern" turks are not succesors of the Ottoman Empire, what the hell you are doing in the former Ottoman Empire territory? style_images/master/snapback.png Well, maybe i am here to correct one thing which is known 'flatly' wrong by many ignorants like you, ha? How about this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 That doesn't answer my question! What the hell, you so-called modern turks are doing in the Ottoman's lands? Before 'accusing' me of being ignorant look up the definition in the vocabulary. I'm sure you have Turkish-English vocabulary in Turkey, not the bird. You see, your line of reasoning matches perfectly with mine. If Armenia tomorrow launches nuclear strike on Turkey, and 3 days latter re-names herself to Panjuria, obviously Panjuria should not be held accountable for the damage caused by the nuclear strike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 (edited) Busty, the Armenian Genocide is not open for debate nor scrutiny, if you do your studies and research correctly, and acknowledge the Armenian Genocide as historical fact, then you can post and express opinions in manner, respect, which is worthy of the victims and Armenian Nation and especially this HYEforum! Until then, your posts which reflect arrogance and childish remarks will be deleted And I will work on my typing skills Edited April 28, 2005 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 Ottoman ... Turk ... that's like freaking Taco Bell that takes the regular dumb ass chicken burrito and adds two more lettuce pieces, and wraps it a bit differently takes the picture from a slightly different angle, calls it the new "burito especial" or something and charges twice as much as before. But to a clever eye, it's still the same damn burrito. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 ... and yah, that's right Betsy ... I just compared you to a burrito. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 (edited) Ottoman ... Turk ... that's like freaking Taco Bell that takes the regular dumb ass chicken burrito and adds two more lettuce pieces, and wraps it a bit differently takes the picture from a slightly different angle, calls it the new "burito especial" or something and charges twice as much as before. But to a clever eye, it's still the same damn burrito. style_images/master/snapback.png Hey Sip! I thought we were talking about turkey. Now you bring up "burrito" which as you know is the diminutive of "burro", also known in our language as "eshek". On the other hand, you're right. No matter how you dress it a turkey is a turkey and it will never fly. Edited April 28, 2005 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 (edited) Well, whatever happened in the past (during Ottoman Empire epoche), genocide or not. BUT, WHY IS TURKEY BEING BROUGTH INTO THESE? I hope you all have a piece of information about this point that: Turkey DO NOT continue Ottomans! So please, have it in your mind and do not ever forget! okplzthanks! style_images/master/snapback.png Bestekar, your name fits you to a tee as a composer and a fabricator. First off, as suggested by many here we do not debate the facts of the Genocide. WE have said everything there is to say and the facts speak for themselves. It is now the turn of the Turks, whoever the hell they may be, As usual you are a little tardy, too late. The French word for late is “retard”. Your above offer is so bayat/stale that it stinks. You are late and you missed the boat and now you and your ilk are sinking and in doing so you are attempting to cling to a straw. First off; Are you an officer of the government? Is your offer official? When I say “late” I mean; During the 80’s and the 90’s some Armenians, whether in official capacity or not made and offer to blame the whole thing on the Ottomans and absolve modern Turks, just like the Germans did. Of course ,unlike the Turks the Germans are a civilized people except when at times they may heed to a bastard of a turk like "itler" aka Hitler whose great great great grandmother was raped by a turk at the gates of Vienna and eventually produced such a monster. A "monster"? Not in the turkish vocabulary! At the present there may be 70 million "hitlers" living in OUR ancestral lands. At that time Turks dismissed the offer right out of hand and did not even consider it, they stuck to the only word they know how to spell- D E N Y. In case you need a translation look up “inkar” Of course, those were other times. There virtually was no Armenia, and the Turks were betting on that in a few more years there would be no Armenian left, and no one to remember. Guess what! There is an Armenia now, it is not going anywhere, and we all remember. Is that why the Turks are running around like a chicken (turkey) with its head cut ofF! During those heady years there were those of us so called Christian Armenians who would suggest that the good Christians that we are we should “forgive and forget”. Yes, we Christians and we live by the Golden Rule which goes something like “do unto others as you would others do unto you”. Opne the Bible , I mean the New Testament and read Matthew Chapter 7 verse 1. The way I read the quote is “do unto others as they did to you”. And you better believe it; We will do to them as they did to us”. Don’t you forget that! Do read the New Testament and learn that there is more to a religion than circumcision. Too bad thatb that sheikh did not have a sharp enough knife to mutilate it more radically so as there would not be any future generations. Yes you ! Sikbash!! Ottoman bokhoman, turkman bokman, you can have it. Many birds have come and gone, this turkey will go the way of the dodo too. You may have forgotten that we are not the "haqqi millet" any more. We are not the "loyal minority", neither are we the "raya", the "herd of sheep". We are a nation and as such we will only deal with legitimate nations, not with a bunch of turkic nomads who belong in the deserts of Central Asia, that is if the Chinese will readmit them. The Ottomans were thrown out of Europe, next they will be thrown out of our ancestral lands, out of Asia Minor to go back to Asia Major where they came from or back to anayin amina. Pull your “tuman” up and get the sik out of here and take your otuman offer with you! WE SHALL OVERCOME!!! Edited April 29, 2005 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 (edited) էս էլ մեր Aրփա հոպարը, ես էլ ասում եմ ուր է նա Edited April 28, 2005 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esayan Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 (edited) Well, whatever happened in the past (during Ottoman Empire epoche), genocide or not. BUT, WHY IS TURKEY BEING BROUGTH INTO THESE? I hope you all have a piece of information about this point that: Turkey DO NOT continue Ottomans! So please, have it in your mind and do not ever forget! okplzthanks! style_images/master/snapback.png Turkey's understanding of "misak-i milli" (national borders) is not realistically drawn. It is like saying "this is gonna be our borders after removing Armenians, who reside in the last part of the empire which is left to us." Armenian genocide was one of the fundamental ideas to build a new Turkish nation state. That is why jihad was proclaimed against Armenians and Greeks, and they were claimed to be the internal enemies of the state. Authorities thought Kurds and other muslim minorities could be assimilated because of their religion. They were right to some extent. Lazs, Cherkezs and others did assimilate. However because of their large population and isolated life, Kurds did not. 1. Turkey is the successor of Ottoman empire. If it is not, why the emblem of the Turkish presidency carries 16 stars, 1 of which symbolizes the Ottoman empire? 2. Turkey is responsible for the Genocide of 1915, because Genocide took place in Turkey during young Turk regime, which was the path for the new Turkish Republic, as much as it was the Ottoman Empire. Ataturk was a former Ittihad and Terraki member. On the other hand, Ottoman empire is directly responsible for the Armenian massacres of 1895-96 which took place under Abdul Hamit II reign. In addition, some sick Turkish people claim that Kerkuk is a traditional Turkish city because bunch of formerly nomadic Turkomans live there... I bet if it was not for the oil, it could have been a traditional Arab city...! Too bad US did not show that much favoritism to give it to Turkey... As long as Turkey does not recognize the Armenian Genocide, supports Azerbaijan, and does not abandon its Turanist aspirations that it inherited from Enver an Talat, normal relations between Armenia and Turkey is not possible. Edited April 29, 2005 by Esayan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 (edited) էս էլ մեր Aրփա հոպարը, ես էլ ասում եմ ուր է նա style_images/master/snapback.png Hangist kats qurik/akhbarik, mi vakhir etkan, lok patahakan mi char khosq e sa. Sirt@d mi kotrir sut bani hamar, du khagh@d khagha, jan kyulum asa". I have been away from my keyboard for a while. I have to earn enough pogh to have my internet connection alive. In the meantime you can rest assured that no turk will hijack this forum. They can try, all they can do is get my "vor"um. " Edited April 29, 2005 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armjan Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 This is exactly my line of reasoning: So if the so-called "modern" turks are not succesors of the Ottoman Empire, what the hell you are doing in the former Ottoman Empire territory? style_images/master/snapback.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommmmmmy Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Well, whatever happened in the past (during Ottoman Empire epoche), genocide or not. BUT, WHY IS TURKEY BEING BROUGTH INTO THESE? I hope you all have a piece of information about this point that: Turkey DO NOT continue Ottomans! So please, have it in your mind and do not ever forget! okplzthanks! style_images/master/snapback.png Because Turks are the descendants of the Ottomans? kthxbye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beste Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 QUOTE: 1. Turkey is the successor of Ottoman empire. If it is not, why the emblem of the Turkish presidency carries 16 stars, 1 of which symbolizes the Ottoman empire? 2. Turkey is responsible for the Genocide of 1915, because Genocide took place in Turkey during young Turk regime, which was the path for the new Turkish Republic, as much as it was the Ottoman Empire. Ataturk was a former Ittihad and Terraki member. On the other hand, Ottoman empire is directly responsible for the Armenian massacres of 1895-96 which took place under Abdul Hamit II reign. ** REPLY: Turkey isn't the successor of Ottoman Empire, Turkish Republic was established on Ottoman lands after Ottoman died, and the people of Turkish republic got those lands making war with attackers (Englishs, Frenchs, Greeks.. ect). Those lands weren't inheritance of Ottomans to Turkish Republic. Turkish people who lived in Ottoman lands weren't satisfied by Ottoman Administrator. And Turkey Founder(Ataturk) and Ottoman administrator were strongly in disagreement in ideologies and many issues. Plus, Ittihad and Terakki groups defense Ottoman's administrator and its existance and continuousness. So ATATURK CANNOT BE THE MEMBER OF THIS GROUP AS THEIR IDEOLOGIES WERE DIFFERENT. Moreover, Ataturk says that: 'Turkey comes into existence from TURKISH PEOPLE WHO ESTABLISHED TURKISH REPUBLIC' That shows THE BIG DIFFERENCE between them (Ottomans-Turkish People in Turkey) as they both are turks. So DO NOT confuse turks who live in Turkey, with Ottomans. Because those people, were struggling against Ottomans, inside. On the other hand, they were trying to defense the lands where they live in against attackers. After all these, how can Turkey continue Ottomans? Their races sameness still doesn't show that Turkey must be accused by Ottomans issues. When this FIRST armenian issue was formed, Turkey wasn't established yet. So Turkey cannot be responsible of Ottomans epoche. Meaning, Turkey isn't involved into this so-called armenian genocide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Your level of intelligence or lack of it suggests that you are in your teens. You never heared of the Lausanne Treaty did you my dear Betse? Neither have you heared that as the legal successor your republic had to pay off the debts of the Ottoman empire. Ottoman Administrators as you put it were hardly people from overseas but your co-nationals whether you like it or not. Not unless you think that your people were transplanted there after World War I. By the way wasn't your dear Ataturk an Ottoman soldier too? I don't think he fought in the name of the Turkish Republic during World War I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 ....Meaning, Turkey isn't involved into this so-called armenian genocide.[/b] style_images/master/snapback.png Ok. Let's pretend for one second that what you're saying is true - and Turkey is not a continuation of the Ottomans. Fine. Why then, is Turkey continuing to deny the Genocide today? Why are the Turks using political pressure on their allies to continure the lies? Why is their a systematic cultural genocide continuing today to eradict the 'memory' of Armenians from the Turkish mindset? Why is there no mention of the AG in Turkish textbooks? Why are Turikish scholars (and only Turkish scholars) continuing to 'research' and publish material that supposed support their denialist postition? If what you're saying is true, that Turkey would have no reason to continue their denialist campaign. In fact, the best course of strategy would be for them to acknowledge the Genocide and condemn the Ottoman's/Young Turks who perpetrated the crimes as it would likely open new doors politically for the 'Modern' Turkey. So you see now, the argument that "Turkey&Ottoman do not equate" fails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Neither have you heared that as the legal successor your republic had to pay off the debts of the Ottoman empire. style_images/master/snapback.png Didn't have to pay off. Ideally you have to, but in practice I'm not sure how many examples of such debt-paying exist. By choosing to pay off the debt owed due to the capitulations and the like, Ataturk actually ACKNOWLEDGED the material inheritance of the Ottoman Empire once and for all. The British could have acted in kind by sending off those two ships they owed the Ottoman Empire, but smack that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Actually, was that debt per se? Or was it merely buying off and nationalising foreign investment, as were the capitulations, something overseas colonies didn't do when proclaiming their independence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 And who is to say that The present Turkish state is any better than the Ottoman state. These article shows the absurdity of the Turkish state trying to "make-believe" that no minorities exist. http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg110400.html http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg110437.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 If what you're saying is true, that Turkey would have no reason to continue their denialist campaign. In fact, the best course of strategy would be for them to acknowledge the Genocide and condemn the Ottoman's/Young Turks who perpetrated the crimes as it would likely open new doors politically for the 'Modern' Turkey. So you see now, the argument that "Turkey&Ottoman do not equate" fails. Excellent logic Vava! One begs to ask the question why she is so eager to disassociate herself from the Ottomans, while playing their advocate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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