Hellenes And Assyrians Need To Be Mentioned More

[skhara]

Guys, a couple of months ago as I was browsing the net, I came across a complaint comment. I do not know the nationality of the poster, but the alias sounded Greek. He had a complaint that some Armenian activists neglect to mention Hellenic and Assyrian genocides. By googling up 'Hellenic Genocide' and reading some of those sites, the Armenian Genocide is mentioned very frequently, and yet I don't see similar results by going the other way. Although there are some very good Armenian run sights that spell out all the Turkish barbarity, I would like to see more mention of the Hellens and the Assyrians.

 

Now are there activisits working for recognition of the Armenian Genocide and yet are idifferent to the others who also suffered under Turkish brutallity? If so, I find it deplorable. Exclusivity, and I really, really, really hate to say this, is a very 'jewish' thing to do; and I don't want to have anything to do with 'jewishness' and hope the rest of you guys feel the same and will always make an effort to show solidarity with Greek and Assyrian peoples.

[Dave]

Question about the Hellenic Genocide - When massacres had started in Pontus and elsewhere, did the Greek government try to do anything to defend their Hellenic brothers?

[Tommmmmmy]

Found this off of a Hellenic Genocide website: "The Armenians are not the only subject people in Turkey which have suffered from this policy of making Turkey exclusively the country of the Turks. The story which I have told about the Armenians I could also tell with certain modifications about the Greeks and the Syrians. Indeed the Greeks were the first victims of this nationalizing idea." - Henry Morgenthau

 

Turkey, you got some 'splaining to do.

Edited April 26, 2005 by Tommmmmmy

[gamavor]

"The Armenians are not the only subject people in Turkey which have suffered from this policy of making Turkey exclusively the country of the Turks. The story which I have told about the Armenians I could also tell with certain modifications about the Greeks and the Syrians. Indeed the Greeks were the first victims of this nationalizing idea." - Henry Morgenthau

 

And this is very true. An objective read of history tells exactly this. Greeks and Assyrians suffered as much as Armenians. There are few threads in the Forum dedicated to that subject.

[Vayri7X]

Completely agree. They mention us always, we should do the same.

[DominO123]

And this is very true. An objective read of history tells exactly this. Greeks and Assyrians suffered as much as Armenians. There are few threads in the Forum dedicated to that subject.

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I disagree, at least for the Greek part.

 

There are no Ottoman subject that has suffered as much as Armenians, maybe Assyrians by the end, but by then, the Ottoman could not make the difference between them and Armenians.

 

I know that many Greeks don't like what I say here, and it has sparked a conflict between me and some of them in the past, but there is a reason why the Armenian genocide is studied as much, and the Greek cases ignored. The Pontus was an exception though, but still, it is entirly another subject.

 

First, there is a fact that during World War I, near half of the world Armenian population perished, it was the worst refugee crises at that time...

[Artaxias]

I disagree, at least for the Greek part.

 

There are no Ottoman subject that has suffered as much as Armenians, maybe Assyrians by the end, but by then, the Ottoman could not make the difference between them and Armenians.

 

I know that many Greeks don't like what I say here, and it has sparked a conflict between me and some of them in the past, but there is a reason why the Armenian genocide is studied as much, and the Greek cases ignored. The Pontus was an exception though, but still, it is entirly another subject.

 

First, there is a fact that during World War I, near half of the world Armenian population perished, it was the worst refugee crises at that time...

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Well, explain yourself.

 

I don't see how Assyrians suffered at all.

 

Greeks had a country and weren't facing extinction. That's the only difference.

Also, unlike the Armenian sheep. Most Greeks were actually fighting.

[DominO123]

Well, explain yourself.

 

I don't see how Assyrians suffered at all.

 

Greeks had a country and weren't facing extinction. That's the only difference.

Also, unlike the Armenian sheep. Most Greeks were actually fighting.

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The Assyrians had no nation as well, their destiny was destruction in Eastern Anatolia, and since they were very close to the Armenian community, at the end, the Ottoman was not making any distinction between them and Armenians.

 

As for the Greeks, I do agree with you, that's probably why a historian in Wikipedia refuse to call what happened to the Greeks as genocide, and say that what happened to the Armenians was different.

 

There are reports BTW regarding the destruction of the Assyrians, in their cases, there was what as well followed in Iraq in the 30s.

[Nakharar]

The Greeks and Assyrians are jumping on the bandwagon of the Armenian Genocide because their massacres are practically unheared of. It gives them the added bonus of free publicity. We are in the same position relative to the Jewish Holocaust.

[skhara]

I disagree, at least for the Greek part.

 

There are no Ottoman subject that has suffered as much as Armenians, maybe Assyrians by the end, but by then, the Ottoman could not make the difference between them and Armenians.

 

I know that many Greeks don't like what I say here, and it has sparked a conflict between me and some of them in the past, but there is a reason why the Armenian genocide is studied as much, and the Greek cases ignored. The Pontus was an exception though, but still, it is entirly another subject.

 

First, there is a fact that during World War I, near half of the world Armenian population perished, it was the worst refugee crises at that time.

 

 

Individuals suffered as much, individuals did. And what on earth would be your motivation be to try and point out, 'no we suffered more', to Greeks? Fact is, they could have 'suffered as much' if they didn't have a place to take refuge and whether you think that they have or have not suffered as much what is your motivation in pointing out that 'you haven't suffered as much' to them? That essentially says that you don't matter 'as much' and that your tragedies are less of tragedies.

 

The Greeks and Assyrians are jumping on the bandwagon of the Armenian Genocide because their massacres are practically unheared of. It gives them the added bonus of free publicity.

 

So let them. Not only that, but pick them up and put them on the bandwagon. It only helps to present a united front and the turk has a significantly larger dent in his propaganda campaign.

[kumkap]

copied and pasted from my message to Vayri7X:

 

I think the approach of Armenian organizations to genocide recognition has been wrong all these years, and it continues to this day. What happened in 1915-23 was not just the complete eradication from Turkey of the Armenian presence, but also all the Christian peoples: Asia Minor and Pontic Greeks as well as Assyrians. Obviously what happened in Smyrna was a result of Greece trying to conquer back their ancient territory from the Turks, BUT what happened to the Pontic Greeks (who populated the areas of Trabzon, Samsun, Sinop, etc. since the period of Alexander) and Assyrians was also genocide. Other cultures just as ancient as Armenians, completely destroyed. The Pontic Greeks had entirely their own culture, with their own dialect of Greek that preserved many features of ancient Greek, their own music (there is an instrument called the Pontic lyra, a type of kemenche, that was specific only to the Pontus), and a proud history of independent kingdoms going back to the period of Alexander. I'm not an expert but in Greece the descendents of Pontians have their own subculture and put in a lot of effort to preserve Pontic culture. Thea Halo, who wrote a best-selling book about the Pontic genocide, mentioned in an interview once that there was some bitterness on the part of Greeks that Armenians ignore the fate of the Pontians.

 

Here is my point: if Armenians had gotten together with the Greeks and Assyrians and presented to the world a picture of what happened in 1915-23 as the destruction and annihilation of the entire Christian population of this Muslim country, Turkey, I think we, especially in this post-9/11 period of anti-Muslim hysteria, would have made a lot more headway by now. Instead it's been turned into he-said/she-said thing between Armenians and Turks, and since most people still don't even know who Armenians are, it remains an uphill battle. Take this new AG museum they're building in D.C. Armenians should have gotten together with the others to build a museum dedicated to the "destruction/genocide of the Christian peoples of Ottoman Turkey during WWI", not just the Armenian genocide. There would be a separate section for each of Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian, but the Armenian one would still be the biggest since Armenians suffered in the largest numbers and over the largest territory. I mean, we are in an age of Lord-of-the-Rings style epic conflict between "Judeo-Christian civilization" and "Islamic civilization" and we can't even get people to recognize the worst example in history of Muslims killing Christians? Shouldn't the neocons be appropriating this piece of history for their propaganda purposes? Does this make any sense?

[Dave]

I agree completely Kumkap

 

The Genocide of Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians was a Jihad!

 

http://www.zyworld.com/Assyrian/Islamic_Jihad.JPG

 

A Turkish Islamic Jihad Flag, which the Turks flew in WWI and under its shadow thousands of Assyrian civilians, were butchered with swords. (Photo: shows the flag captured by the Russian army 1914-15).

 

from http://www.zyworld.com/Assyrian/The%20Assy...%20Genocide.htm

[skhara]

Absolutely it makes sense. But if it didn't make sense to me, I would not have posted my criticism and concern to begin with, and so far, there is only one response that I don't consider a positive one.

 

Here is my point: if Armenians had gotten together with the Greeks and Assyrians and presented to the world a picture of what happened in 1915-23 as the destruction and annihilation of the entire Christian population of this Muslim country, Turkey,

 

Better late then never.

[DominO123]

Individuals suffered as much, individuals did.  And what on earth would be your motivation be to try and point out, 'no we suffered more', to Greeks?  Fact is, they could have 'suffered as much' if they didn't have a place to take refuge and whether you think that they have or have not suffered as much what is your motivation in pointing out that 'you haven't suffered as much' to them?  That essentially says that you don't matter 'as much' and that your tragedies are less of tragedies.

So let them.  Not only that, but pick them up and put them on the bandwagon.  It only helps to present a united front and the turk has a significantly larger dent in his propaganda campaign.

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This has little to do with individual suffering... this has to do with a nations destruction on their own heartland. The Greeks have been targeted, but it was not a general plan of destruction as it was the cases with the Armenians. There was a distinction that for me seems clear. For the Ottoman, the Armenians were the central problem, and their destruction passed before anything else. That many Greeks were targeted later, or that at the end, and with the nationalist forces, Greek communities were destroyed, I don't disagree here... the fact is that one of the nationalist leading generals, was furious that the same decisions taken against the Armenians were not taken against the Greeks when the occasion presented itself... there later was hundreds of thousands of Greeks kicked out with the so-called population exchange policy... at that time, the majority of the Armenians in Eastern Anatolia were just dead, while the majority of Greeks in the other corner, survived. What happened to the Pontus Greeks, happened to the Armenians in every Corner of Anatolia, and unlike the Greeks, for the Armenians there was no possible final destination(Greece) other than total destruction.

[skhara]

I agree with the above, I believe I was pretty clear on what I am personally bothered by. And taking the UN definition of genocide, it was one. It is the fact that they were targetted that should be mentioned by Armenians because most do not know. And by clearly and visibly pointing out to the world that Armenians were not the only ones, the Turk looses a lot of his amunition.

 

Just imagine this scenario. Some ignorant westerner faintly hears of the AG and may mention something in a casual conversation. A turk may be involved in the conversation and this turk will jump with the usual -- "it wasn't genocide, it was casualties of war". "They betrayed us and joined russia." "look armenian gangs killed 2 million turks." And perhaps this westerner is now confused and think that maybe there are 2 sides?

 

However, if this person knew of prior massacres against the Bulgars, against Lebanese Christians, about the horrible attrocities committed in Macedonia, etc... Then he can think, 'hey wait a minute, did all these people betray the turks?" Are all of them lying, or are the turks lying? Get where I'm going with this?

 

Armenians are only 9 million. The Turks are 10 times that! Soon Europe will turn into a Turkoman land. We absolutely have to show solidarity with others. And that greatly boosts our strength against our enemies.

 

I think most here understand exactly what I'm tring to say.

[DominO123]

I agree with the above, I believe I was pretty clear on what I am personally bothered by.  And taking the UN definition of genocide, it was one.  It is the fact that they were targetted that should be mentioned by Armenians because most do not know.  And by clearly and visibly pointing out to the world that Armenians were not the only ones, the Turk looses a lot of his amunition. 

 

Just imagine this scenario.  Some ignorant westerner faintly hears of the AG and may mention something in a casual conversation.  A turk may be involved in the conversation and this turk will jump with the usual -- "it wasn't genocide, it was casualties of war".  "They betrayed us and joined russia."  "look armenian gangs killed 2 million turks."  And perhaps this westerner is now confused and think that maybe there are 2 sides?

 

However, if this person knew of prior massacres against the Bulgars, against Lebanese Christians, about the horrible attrocities committed in Macedonia, etc...  Then he can think, 'hey wait a minute, did all these people betray the turks?"  Are all of them lying, or are the turks lying?  Get where I'm going with this?

 

Armenians are only 9 million.  The Turks are 10 times that!  Soon Europe will turn into a Turkoman land.  We absolutely have to show solidarity with others.  And that greatly boosts our strength against our enemies.

 

I think most here understand exactly what I'm tring to say.

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Taken like this, I can't disagree here.

 

BTW, the World Armenian population is between 7-8 million, we aren't even 9 million.

[HellenicPride]

copied and pasted from my message to Vayri7X:

 

I think the approach of Armenian organizations to genocide recognition has been wrong all these years, and it continues to this day. What happened in 1915-23 was not just the complete eradication from Turkey of the Armenian presence, but also all the Christian peoples: Asia Minor and Pontic Greeks as well as Assyrians. Obviously what happened in Smyrna was a result of Greece trying to conquer back their ancient territory from the Turks, BUT what happened to the Pontic Greeks (who populated the areas of Trabzon, Samsun, Sinop, etc. since the period of Alexander) and Assyrians was also genocide. Other cultures just as ancient as Armenians, completely destroyed.  The Pontic Greeks had entirely their own culture, with their own dialect of Greek that preserved many features of ancient Greek, their own music (there is an instrument called the Pontic lyra, a type of kemenche, that was specific only to the Pontus), and a proud history of independent kingdoms going back to the period of Alexander.  I'm not an expert but in Greece the descendents of Pontians have their own subculture and put in a lot of effort to preserve Pontic culture.  Thea Halo, who wrote a best-selling book about the Pontic genocide, mentioned in an interview once that there was some bitterness on the part of Greeks that Armenians ignore the fate of the Pontians.

 

Here is my point: if Armenians had gotten together with the Greeks and Assyrians and presented to the world a picture of what happened in 1915-23 as the destruction and annihilation of the entire Christian population of this Muslim country, Turkey, I think we, especially in this post-9/11 period of anti-Muslim hysteria, would have made a lot more headway by now. Instead it's been turned into he-said/she-said thing between Armenians and Turks, and since most people still don't even know who Armenians are, it remains an uphill battle. Take this new AG museum they're building in D.C. Armenians should have gotten together with the others to build a museum dedicated to the "destruction/genocide of the Christian peoples of Ottoman Turkey during WWI", not just the Armenian genocide. There would be a separate section for each of Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian, but the Armenian one would still be the biggest since Armenians suffered in the largest numbers and over the largest territory.  I mean, we are in an age of Lord-of-the-Rings style epic conflict between "Judeo-Christian civilization" and "Islamic civilization" and we can't even get people to recognize the worst example in history of Muslims killing Christians?  Shouldn't the neocons be appropriating this piece of history for their propaganda purposes?  Does this make any sense?

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Well said and very true. My father is a pontic Greek and my Grandmother remembers bits and pieces of what happen during the expulsion (death march). We both suffered genocide but the difference is as it was mentioned the Greeks had Greece the Armenians had no destination and therefore Armenians suffered by far greater casulties than lets say us Greeks and Kurds.

[phantom22]

There are Armenians who consider even those with only one non-Armenian great-grandparent to be not Armenian. This is counter to our cause.

 

What transpired was the eradication (there's a new word for you all) of almost all the Christian people within the borders of present-day Turkey. Others have suffered under the Turkish yoke as well. We should definately broaden the scope of our cause to include Greeks, Assyrians, Chaldeans, etc.

Edited June 18, 2005 by phantom22

[TMNT]

I think the entire concept of uniting with the oppressed people under the Ottoman government would be a great idea, however, keep in mind that the political alliance will not end at genocide recognition. Meaning, if you champion the Assyrian cause then you should also be willing to push for a Assyrian state in Iraq, while if you champion the Greek cause then Armenia and Armenians should also be willing to support Cyprus on the international stage.

 

Honestly, I support both people, but I don't know if many Armenians will support Greeks and Assyrians. Which begs the question, would Greeks and Assyrians support Armenians and would it be in the interests of their lobby to do so?

Edited June 18, 2005 by TMNT

[phantom22]

What idiocy is in that compels Armenians not to support the Pontic Greek and Assyrian causes?

 

Armenian organizations are clamoring about the genocide in Darfur, but some Armenians ignore those of their neighbors? Now who are the village idiots?

[Dave]

Shouldn't we wait until Greece recognizes the existance of Karabagh, before helping out the Greek?

[skhara]

Shouldn't we wait until Greece recognizes the existance of Karabagh, before helping out the Greek?

 

Uhhh. No! Besides what do you mean by the 'existance' of Artsax? Everyone recognises the existance of Artsax because it exists. If you mean recognising the independent Republic of Nagorny-Karabagh, then shouldn't the ROA be the first to do so? I don't think that Armenians should wait on anything to help Greeks, because by helping them, we help ourselves. And the same can be said for the Greeks.

 

I think the entire concept of uniting with the oppressed people under the Ottoman government would be a great idea, however, keep in mind that the political alliance will not end at genocide recognition.

 

Yeah, that's true. I don't have a problem with it, do you?

 

while if you champion the Greek cause then Armenia and Armenians should also be willing to support Cyprus on the international stage.

 

I don't know any Armenian who is aware of the Cyprus situation and doesn't support the Greek side. In fact, I think Armenians have every interest in supporting Cyprus on the international stage. That would be a political assualt on the Turks from all sides, and build awereness of Turkey as an agressive, violent, and hypocritic state.

 

if you champion the Assyrian cause then you should also be willing to push for a Assyrian state in Iraq

 

This may be tough and may have a backlash. But either support should be given for them in whatever capacity it is possible without jepordising our own position.

[DominO123]

Shouldn't we wait until Greece recognizes the existance of Karabagh, before helping out the Greek?

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Do you mean its independence? Even Armenia doesn't recognize it by fear of war.

 

If it would ever be recognized, the first possible country I think that may recognize it is Russia, then Armenia.

[Dave]

Yes. I meant independence.

 

I didn't know Armenia doesn't recognize Nagorno-Karabagh's independence!

[TMNT]

Yeah, that's true. I don't have a problem with it, do you?

 

No, I have no problem with it. In fact it would be in the best interest of Armenians to create a political block with Assyrians, Greeks, and Palestinians.

Edited June 21, 2005 by TMNT