Turks say they are ready to

[skhara]

but Armenians 'refuse'.

 

 

Guys there may have been a thread on this. But please shed some light for me. What is the whole story there?

 

Turks say that they have 'opennened' archives, but Armenians do not want to participate.

[vava]

There's nothing to discuss. The AG is a historical fact. Whether some more academics have a gander at the turkish archives (or whatever is considered suitable) won't change anything, as many turkish academics as well as turkish-bought academics have already 'studied' the Turkish archives. Accepting to 'study' the situation is akin to admitting that there exists a controversy - or 'two-sides' to the story. There isn't. There's simply fact - and those who use every means of persausion necessary to deny that fact.

[vava]

Besides, Armenian, America, German, British & French archives have been open a long time.

[skhara]

There's nothing to discuss. The AG is a historical fact. Whether some more academics have a gander at the turkish archives (or whatever is considered suitable) won't change anything, as many turkish academics as well as turkish-bought academics have already 'studied' the Turkish archives. Accepting to 'study' the situation is akin to admitting that there exists a controversy - or 'two-sides' to the story. There isn't. There's simply fact - and those who use every means of persausion necessary to deny that fact.

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Vava I understand that. The thing is that there are people that have never even heard of Armenians let alone about the genocide. They know nothing of the Turk and his savagery and Turks target these people today and say that "Armenians claim there was a so-called genocide, but look we have 'openned' our documents and the Armenians refuse." -- It is a line they throw out a lot and there are way more turks than us -- and now they are flooding Europe and North America.

 

You're response was a good one and thank you for it. I want to hear more responses so I can a very good and strong retort myself.

 

When did the Turks make this 'announcement' and what were the surrounding cirmumstances.

[Dave]

The Turks announced this a few months before the 90th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide. I guess they are trying to make us look bad. In their news sites, they also try to portray us as anti-semitic, or that ''Armenian gangs killed Ottoman Jews too''...

 

There is nothing left to study. They want to make it look like the Genocide is still a debated issue.

[vava]

Well their statement has had impact unfortunately. Erdogan has recently proposed to the Armenian leadership to form a joint study in order to look further into the history of Armenians in Ottoman Turkey during WW1. He's trumpeted his offer all over the EU and the US as being conciliatory - Bush even referred to this in his statement on April 24th.

 

Don't buy it though - why had they refused up until now to allow international academics and credible historians to study the archives? Only now they have nothing to hide? Hmmmm... something smells funny.

[vava]

I received this Press Release from the Zoryan Institute - which includes the text of an open letter to Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan. I though it was relevant in this thread:

 

Kaynak: groong

Yer: ZORYAN INSTITUTE OF CANADA, INC.

Tarih: 11.5.2005

ZORYAN INSTITUTE OF CANADA, INC.

255 Duncan Mill Rd., Suite 310

Toronto, ON, Canada M3B 3H9

E-mail: zoryan@zoryaninstitute.org

www.zoryaninstitute.org

 

 

PRESS RELEASE

 

DATE: May 9, 2005

 

Zoryan Institute Writes to Turkish Prime Minister on Turkish-Armenian

Dialogue

 

Toronto, Canada - Against the background of the 90th anniversary of the 1915

Armenian Genocide, there has been a flood of activity and articles about the

Genocide and its impact on Turkish-Armenian relations today. Recently, Prime

Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey wrote to Armenian President Robert

Kocharyan with the suggestion of the two countries forming a joint

commission of historians and other experts to study the "events of 1915," as

a prelude to normalizing relations. This suggestion has drawn the attention

of such interested parties as Germany and the United States.

 

President Kocharyan responded that other countries on the European

continent, which have disputes are still able to have open borders and

diplomatic relations. He argued that it is the responsibility of governments

to develop bilateral relations and it is not right to delegate that

responsibility to historians. He proposed that the two countries establish

normal relations and open border with one another, with no preconditions.

 

The Zoryan Institute, which supports all earnest efforts to promote

Turkish-Armenian dialogue, and was engaged four years ago in a failed

attempt at establishing a historians' commission on this subject, has issued

a public letter to Prime Minister Erdogan. The letter suggests that instead

of waiting for a historians' commission to be created, which is long,

arduous and complex process, there are simple confidence-building steps that

could be taken now, to bridge the divide between the two civil societies.

 

Attached is the full text of the letter, signed by Professor Roger W. Smith,

Chairman of the Zoryan Institute's Academic Board of Directors.

 

The Zoryan Institute is the first non-profit, international center devoted

to the research and documentation of contemporary issues related to Armenian

social, political and cultural life. To this end, the Institute conducts

multidisciplinary research, publication, and educational programs dealing

with Armenia, the Armenian Genocide, and Diaspora, within a universal

context.

 

 

ZORYAN INSTITUTE OF CANADA, INC.

 

255 Duncan Mill Rd., Suite 310

 

Toronto, ON, Canada M3B 3H9

 

E-mail: zoryan@zoryaninstitute.org

www.zoryaninstitute.org

--

 

 

May 9, 2005

 

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan

 

Ankara, Turkey

 

Fax: + 90 312 417 0476

receptayyip.erdogan@basbakanlik.gov.tr

 

 

Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:

 

A few weeks ago, Your Excellency wrote to Armenian President Robert

Kocharyan, proposing a joint group, consisting of historians and other

experts, to study "the events of 1915." The purpose of this initiative would

be to "shed light on a disputed period of history and also constitute a step

towards contributing to the normalization of relations between" Turkey and

Armenia.

 

We would like you to know that a similar proposal was initiated as far back

as September 2001. At that time, the Zoryan Institute, in collaboration with

the Turkish-Armenian Business Development Council (TABDC), represented by

Mr. Kaan Soyak, its President, developed the outlines of a proposal for a

historians' forum. This was done with the involvement of both Turkish and

Armenian scholars. The goal of the forum was to create a platform for

historians where a conceptual framework would be developed to discuss

historical facts, especially as they relate to the treatment of the

Armenians by the Ottoman authorities in the last days of the Ottoman Empire,

during World War I. The discussion would be free and open, enabling both

societies to deal with their past. The forum would also disseminate, without

censorship, information through seminars, colloquia, conferences, and public

discussions and would make available the archival and source documentation

for this subject through the broadcast media. At that time, Mr. Soyak let us

know that the Turkish Government was intimately informed about this

initiative, and that the TABDC was to take the proposal to the Turkish

government for its approval. Unfortunately, such approval was never

obtained, we believe, because "diverging interpretations of events that took

place during a particular period.continue to hamper the development of

friendly relations between" Armenia and Turkey today, as you note in your

letter.

 

In order to help reconcile these divergent interpretations, the two sides

must listen to and hear each other. As part of this process, a common body

of knowledge needs to be created, so that established facts can help

alleviate the polarization of opinions. This, in turn, will lead to the

"peaceful and friendly environment in which tolerance and mutual respect

shall prevail." Therefore, we at the Zoryan Institute urge your government

to take some simple steps to allow for a free and open discussion within

Turkish society, such as those listed below.

 

1)      Facilitate critical scholars educating society about the events of

1915 from different points of view and not only from the government's

perspective.

 

2)      Allow the broadcast of a series of lectures on this issue by

renowned Armenian, Turkish and/or third party scholars, who do not

necessarily reflect the government's official position, through Turkish

television networks, without any censorship, and with the accessibility to

the public for questions.

 

3)      Allow Turkish academics and intellectuals, whose point of view

challenges the official version of what happened in 1915, to express their

ideas through public lectures, publications, and translations of Ottoman

archival materials, without fear of persecution by the state.

 

4)      In this respect, make unequivocally and publicly clear that Article

305 of the Penal Code, which criminalizes "acts against the fundamental

national interest," does not pertain to the "Armenian Genocide" issue, and

that individuals who say that the Armenians suffered a genocide will not be

persecuted by the state.

 

In its turn, Armenia should be willing to allow public access there to the

official Turkish point of view, in the same manner.

 

It takes considerable time to conceptualize new approaches to large

problems, which have eluded solution for generations. At the same time,

there are many useful, small, confidence-building steps that can be taken on

the road to finding that solution. Therefore, we strongly urge the Turkish

Government to accept the call of Armenian Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian

for your two countries to establish diplomatic relations, with no

preconditions, as a first step to commencing dialogue. This would

demonstrate the sincerity of your government regarding the normalization of

relations between the two countries.

 

 

Dear Mr. Prime Minister, by such steps described above, you will help

accelerate the creation of bridges between various sectors of the two

governments and civil societies, so crucial for normalization of relations

and conflict resolution. We urge you not to miss the opportunity at this

juncture of accepting the outstretched hand of friendship from Armenia, as a

previous Turkish government missed during the early 1990s. Please be assured

that we at Zoryan Institute stand ready to support all earnest efforts to

promote Turkish-Armenian dialogue through our expertise and scholarly

resources.

 

 

Yours respectfully,

 

 

[signed]

 

 

Roger W. Smith, Chair, Academic Board of Directors

 

 

Cc: President Robert Kocharyan, Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian, Special

Advisor to UN Secretary General Juan Mendez

[gamavor]

There is NOTHING to discuss!!! The sooner their American Masters understand this the better! Turkey should return all occupied Armenian territories, restitution of Armenian possesions in Turkey, legislative changes harmonized with EU Law, respect of minority rights, etc...

[vava]

As I mentioned above, I'm undecided as to whether this tactic of 'opening dialogue' between Armenians and Turks, is worth putting into question the Historic fact that is the AG. However, I do find that the Zoryan letter above is well worded, and merely advocates an exchange of 'points-of-view' - and not as Erdogan's statement had suggested, agreement to 'study the events' of 1915.

[DominO123]

As I mentioned above, I'm undecided as to whether this tactic of 'opening dialogue' between Armenians and Turks, is worth putting into question the Historic fact that is the AG. However, I do find that the Zoryan letter above is well worded, and merely advocates an exchange of 'points-of-view' - and not as Erdogan's statement had suggested, agreement to 'study the events' of 1915.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Turkey doesn't stend any chances against a Zoryan sponsered dialogue, it would be a slaughter of arguments if that was ever to happen.

 

The Turkish republic knows that it is the diasporan Armenian position that is undefeatable, so they ask Armenia for "dialogue" about the subject.

[wh00t]

My question is, how come the newspaper articles that mention this new commission never refer to the independent TARC commission that found that genocide had occurred? In fact, why aren't Armenia and the Diaspora referring the findings at every opportunity? How many times are independent Armenian-Turkish historian groups going to arrive at the genocide conclusion before Turkey acknowledges the findings as true? Why have we fallen into this trap?

[vava]

Interesting perspective Domino, but do you actually feel that the Turkish establishment distinguishes between 'diasporan' Armenia, and Armenia? Surely any political pressure Turkey is under with regards to the Armenian 'question' and their prospective EU membership has been brought on by 'diasporan' Armenia. So who exactly would they address if they were to attempt to create dialog with 'diasporan' Armenia, if not Armenia herself? Edited May 14, 2005 by vava

[vava]

My question is, how come the newspaper articles that mention this new commission never refer to the independent TARC commission that found that genocide had occurred? In fact, why aren't Armenia and the Diaspora referring the findings at every opportunity? How many times are independent Armenian-Turkish historian groups going to arrive at the genocide conclusion before Turkey acknowledges the findings as true? Why have we fallen into this trap?

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You're absolutely right whoot - (welcome back, again, btw)

On a side note, do you know where we can get any information on the findings of the TARC commission? I really don't know too much about it; if the findings were favourable, why were so many Armenians upset with the commission and the whole process?

[DominO123]

Interesting perspective Domino, but do you actually feel that the Turkish establishment distinguishes between 'diasporan' Armenia, and Armenia?  Surely any political pressure Turkey is under with regards to the Armenian 'question' and their prospective EU membership has been brought on by 'diasporan' Armenia. So who exactly would they address if they were to attempt to create dialog with 'diasporan' Armenia, if not Armenia herself?

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

I really don't have an answer here.

[DominO123]

My question is, how come the newspaper articles that mention this new commission never refer to the independent TARC commission that found that genocide had occurred? In fact, why aren't Armenia and the Diaspora referring the findings at every opportunity? How many times are independent Armenian-Turkish historian groups going to arrive at the genocide conclusion before Turkey acknowledges the findings as true? Why have we fallen into this trap?

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

wh00t, Turkey has changed its position to leave history in the hand of historians just recently. As they have announced themselves. The thing become for them entirly political.

[armjan]

Interesting perspective Domino, but do you actually feel that the Turkish establishment distinguishes between 'diasporan' Armenia, and Armenia?  Surely any political pressure Turkey is under with regards to the Armenian 'question' and their prospective EU membership has been brought on by 'diasporan' Armenia. So who exactly would they address if they were to attempt to create dialog with 'diasporan' Armenia, if not Armenia herself?

style_images/master/snapback.png

I don't c y turkey would consider either one or the other(diasporan Armenia or Armenia) any easier to convince of it's ill intentions.

[skhara]

There is NOTHING to discuss!!! The sooner their American Masters understand this the better! Turkey should return all occupied Armenian territories, restitution of Armenian possesions in Turkey, legislative changes harmonized with EU Law, respect of minority rights, etc...

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

 

Gams... what to do with the Turks that live in occupied Armenian territories?

[Stormig]

Turkey distinguishes between the diaspora and Armenia only when it serves her purposes. If, of course, such a consistent entity and approach exists. Usually the arguments of one party contradict those of the other and they don't even see it.

 

Did TARC really reach such a conclusion? I thought they had fallen apart without giving fruit.

[wh00t]

Did TARC really reach such a conclusion? I thought they had fallen apart without giving fruit.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Even people familiar with the issue are unaware of the findings. What am I missing that prevents us from referring to the report at every opportunity?

 

The conclusion drawn from the TARC commission:

 

The crucial issue of genocidal intent is contested, and this legal

memorandum is not intended to definitively resolve particular factual disputes.

Nonetheless, we believe that the most reasonable conclusion to draw from the various

accounts referred to above of the Events is that, notwithstanding the efforts of large

numbers of "righteous Turks"59 who intervened on behalf of the Armenians, at least some

of the perpetrators of the Events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the

destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted

purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent.

Because the other three elements identified above have been definitively established, the

Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of

genocide as defined in the Convention, and legal scholars as well as historians,

politicians, journalists and other people would be justified in continuing to so describe

them.

 

What is unclear about this passage? This whole memorandum is available in three languages here: http://www.tarc.info/ictj.htm Why aren't Armenians referring to this document every time bias is alleged in historians or that the need for an independent study is called for?

Edited May 14, 2005 by wh00t

[Stormig]

What is unclear about this passage? This whole memorandum is available in three languages here: http://www.tarc.info/ictj.htm Why aren't Armenians referring to this document every time bias is alleged in historians or that the need for an independent study is called for?

style_images/master/snapback.png

Indeed.

 

 

On a side note, the title of the post makes one think of someone ready to discuss their sex life.

[gamavor]

Gams... what to do with the Turks that live in occupied Armenian territories?

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

We are civilized people! Those that want to stay are more than welcome. Together we will contribute to the betterment of the Republic of Armenia. The rest might choose to move somewhere in Turkey, Europe and USA.

[vava]

Even people familiar with the issue are unaware of the findings. What am I missing that prevents us from referring to the report at every opportunity?

...

Why aren't Armenians referring to this document every time bias is alleged in historians or that the need for an independent study is called for?

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wh00t, I think this is probably what's missing (I got this form the same site - in the intro):

 

This memorandum is a legal, not a factual or historical, analysis. In deriving the conclusions contained in this memorandum we have attempted to state explicitly whether our conclusion relies on any factual assumptions. Although we have reviewed various accounts of the relevant facts, we have not undertaken any independent factual investigation.

 

They explicit point out, that no comprehensive historical analysis has been carried out. I was under the same impression as Stormig, that the TARC initiative had amounted to nothing. That remains to be seen it seems.

[wh00t]

vava, I'm trying to wrap my head around what is meant by that intro. Don't you have to undertake a historical analysis to draw a legal conclusion about whether or not the events constitute genocide under the UN convention? It's hard for me to determine what line is being drawn here. I don't know, whatever it is I still believe that the findings of this report can be exceedingly useful when calls for Turkish-Armenian rapprochments and joint study are heard. I'm sick of playing this dead-end back-and-forth game.

[vava]

Good point. As I mentioned earlier - I'm not really up to speed as to the TARC's mandate, nor their legalese statement. My guess is that they are saying that legally, based on their preliminary findings, the genocide convention DOES apply to the crimes in question. As to whether a complete, exhaustive, historical analysis was actually executed (one that satisfies both sides of participants) that remains to be determined. I figure, this was the only sort of compromise that the TARC could possibly arrive at - in other words, somewhat of a stalemate.

[skhara]

We are civilized people! Those that want to stay are more than welcome. Together we will contribute to the betterment of the Republic of Armenia. The rest might choose to move somewhere in Turkey, Europe and USA.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

 

What happenned to the "best turk is a ...... " you know the rest.

Edited May 15, 2005 by skhara