Ernest Hemingway: "hot Armenian slut"

[wh00t]

In Hemingway's "The Snows of Kilimanjaro", he refers to:

quote

He had gone to a place to dance with her afterward, she danced badly, and left her for a hot Armenian slut, that swung her belly against him so it almost scalded.

 

Odd. http://xroads.virginia.edu/~DRBR/heming.html

 

[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: wh00t ]

[Paul bunyan]

ernest hemingway, America's dullest and most throughly untalented hack writer. notable only for his boring, machismo "writing" and his distinctive

suicide

[gamavor]

And what is wrong with that.... . Or probably you believe it is OK to read classics about french, russian and other notable sluts.

[ThornyRose]

If the ladies who danced in taverns (mostly in Istanbul, I think) and the like are anything to go by, yes, most such were Greek and Armenian girls... Even the very act of going on stage was forbidden for Muslim women - at least in the Ottoman days.

Even until my aunt's youth (she's 63 now, I think - my mommy just made it to 50), belly dancers who came to dance at weddings were males wearing women's outfits... (Yuck!) They almost died out after Turkish women (who had 'most always had their fun in private) took over, until, when recently, it has sprung up again, more as some sort of spectacle... (Totally amusing for me. But I always prefer watching Tanyeli, Asena, etc., making all those nice curly moves than some guy with a hairy chest but long hair and some make-up around the eyes.)

Turkish belly-dancing is said to be more sensual/sexual, whereas what you see in the Arab countries is supposed to be more feminine and innocent-like. (Haven't observed myself - just read it in a mag somewhere - probably in one article about the guy who wrote a book about the subject.) Perhaps we owe our freedom-loving (without having to go all the way to the sluttiness) Greek and Armenian ladies for having kept it alive - or keeping it at a certain standard.

[Harut]

yeee, we have sluts too!!! what a joy!!!

[wh00t]

Looks like we have a group consensus, "horray for Armenian sluts".

[khodja]

Harut,

 

Why do you believe that Armenians are any different than any other nationality? Anything you see with the others you will see with the Armenians. I remember my Armenian friends in my youth talking about a few girls as "sluts." I don't know if any of this was true, but I did date the best friend of one of these girls and she was more sensual than most of the Armenian girls, but hardly a slut. I think that there is a lot of distortion in the Armenian community. This is part of the reason so many marry out. Why deal with all the BS? Every time I was seen with a pretty Armenian girl at a dance the older people had us married. Then, no one else would want to date you, even a year later. When I met my ex-wife on our first date, a blind date, we laughed for hours about all the ridiculous things our parents had filled our heads with about what occurs in other communities but not our own (that we are as pure as the driven snow). She was more relaxed about sexual matters, more like the odars I had dated than the Armenians years before. Little did I realize in my youth that the attitude of the Armenian girls was only for Armenian consumption and that with odar men it was a different story. Sorry, Harut anything that you will find in other nationalites you will find in the Armenians. That we are a so-called cut above in these matters is pure myth. Unfortunately, due to dire economic matters more Armenian women per capita are involved with prostitution today than most nationalities. Are we going to continue to play an ostrich?

[MJ]

Given that Armenian "sluts" have elevated prostitution to the level of Art (judging from the affiliation of the material to the Arts forum), all this sounds quite terrific. We are the first, again.

 

Therefore, indeed "hurray for Armenian sluts".

[khodja]

MJ,

 

It has been noted that Mme. Manoukian's great business success was based on the fact that her "girls" were noted to be cleaner, more elegant and fashionably dressed than those of her competitors. Her background in fashion and her French Catholic finishing school training gave her the tools to elevated prostitution in Istambul to an art form. She was, you know, from one of Constantinople's elite Armenian families.

[wh00t]

Thorny, that comment was referring to the posts before yours.

[Harut]

whoot, can you see the sad faces under my messge?

 

hargarg, believe me, i know much about Armenians than you think.

[ThornyRose]

No, just life in Istanbul was different... What are the settings for the above, anyway?

[khodja]

Harut,

 

Then why the "holier than thou" attitude? When you further a myth it cuases a lot of pain. Don't we all have enough of a burden due to the Genocide? To try to live up to an ideal that does not even exist is an additional burden that is unnecessary. We need more independent journalism that depicts the truths about our community, not the myths. Too much mind control by the ecclesiastical leaders. Not enough realism. If these Church guys were doing their job, why is their so much misery due to corruption?

[Paul bunyan]

Madame Manukian should have been guillotined. thats really sick Armenian girls forced into prostitution by the satanic turkish state's illegal crippling blockade.

and of course there are always immoral

decadent people who love vice.

 

 

HOORAY! FOR GOOD DECENT CLEAN SWEET FEMININE ARMENIAN GOOD GIRLS!!

[Harut]

hagarag, what makes you think that i consider Armenians to be the holiest in the world?
in fact Armenians are as nasty as anybody else.
but my role is to improve the quality of Armenians, not critisize them and watch how they get mad on me.

i preffer reality over myth too, and always seek for it.

but what do you suppose i should do when i hear about an Armenian slut?? dance? cheer? or say a toast to her health?

or being a slut is an honorable career?

[Boghos]

It is most interesting how a simple mention of an "Armenian slut" put in proper context by Ms. Rose (thank you), gets way out of hand. Not that open forae are not created for that purpose, they are. But sometimes, as Freud said "a cigar is just a cigar". And we should keep it that way.

[ThornyRose]

Hello, Boghosinho!
Were you being sarcastic, Boghosinho? I've never been called "Ms. Rose" by you.
Either way, happy to see you around more often!

[MJ]

Boghos,

 

Like you have indicated in another thread today that there are inherent insecurities in the Turkish society, there are such insecurities also in Armenian society. It is especially apparent on the example of our younger people.

 

The fact of the matter is that Armenian women have been very popular in Asia Minor and Europe in the medieval centuries. There are renowned Armenian historians of the 11th century, as well as at least few romantic novels of the 19th (?) century (by Alexander Duma, for example), which attest to this fact. Moreover, Aristakes Lastivertsi (11th century) claims that the trouble of Armenia where due to the [behavior?] good looks of Armenian women. Everybody had their eyes on them. And I think it is quite natural. The era he describes has been an era of massive exodus/exile of Armenian men from Armenia for variety of reasons – jobs, religious freedoms, curiosity, apathy, etc. In some sense, the situation is similar even in our days. According to an article I read few days ago, the number of marriage age women in Armenia outnumbers the number of men by 1/3.

 

What I don’t get regarding the emotions around this matter can be formulated as simple as this, “What’s the big deal about it?” Since when have Armenians become a puritanistic society?

[khodja]

Stated by MJ:

 

"Since when have the Armenians become a Puritanistic society?"

 

Say what? The Armenians are most definitely a reactionary society, especially in the area of sexuality. That is why so many Armenian marriages fall apart. That is why there is aso much misery in so many Armenian homes. Armenians are not alone, but do not hold realistic perceptions of the intricacies of human sexuality. Our thinking is more formed by imposed "moral" dictates than the reality of biology. To understand human sexuality you must understand biology. Church and science in today's world do not mix. Have you ever noticed how many nuns die of diseases of the sexual organs? Vestigial organs become diseased. Have you ever wondered why so many Catholic priests are arrested for child molestation? Celibacy is not a natural state (however today is an intelligent move for anyone not in a monogamous relationship). Armenians on the whole are very sexually repressed and backward, especially in the homeland. In much of the Moslem world anyone who doesn't toe the line can be killed. Remember the Saudi princess who was publically executed for her affair wlith a commoner? Armenians are just Islamics fundamentalists without the Islam.

[Boghos]

Not sarcastic, no. It just sounded more respectful. You are getting older ) .

[ThornyRose]

Bleah. Only 22.

[khodja]

Harut,

 

What this all boils down to is humility. Instead of struting around about how "perfect" we are, it is better to accept the reality and then attempt to improve the situation. There are two approaches that we can take. The conservatives will condemn this behavior and try to curtail it through punishment. The liberals wil try to find the underlying causes and ameriorate it in this way. The conservative will denigrate the person (using religion as the stick), while the liberal will try to help them find a better life.

[Harut]

people, my anger was not due to Armenian sluts.

 

they existed, they exist, and will exist.

it's just very natural.

 

what bothers me is that people make assumptions about how other people think about the subject.