Artaxias Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 THE MASSACRE OF ARMENIAN CULTURAL AND SPIRITUAL HERITAGE IN GEORGIA CONTINUES IN THE SPIRIT OF THE ULTRA-NATIONALIST GAMSAKHURDIA What else can one call these acts of vandalism? And when will a nightmare that has swept over Georgia for the last decades and gained new momentum in the past 17 years finally end? In Christian Georgia today, in the Kakheti region famous for its mild climate and good wine, unique Armenian Khatshkars are being destroyed. A Georgian monk does not hide his intentions of destroying the stone with the Armenian inscriptions on of the churches of the century old Armenian ecclesiastical complex of Gremi, Kakheti, and states that the Armenian Church in the complex will be renovated according to Georgian faith. Regrettably, many Georgian priests mistakenly confound ultra-nationalism and vandalism with patriotism. Our photographer was looking in vain for three unique Khatshkars of the 14th century on the façade of one of the Churches inside the Gremi complex. And his face turned white, as he remembered how he had himself photographed the Khatshkars well in place some 12 years ago. Now they are gone, just like many other Armenian Khatshkars from the 12th to the 17th century, which were destroyed in the ecclesiastical complex of Gremi. Today the complex is closed to the public. It is being "renovated". A Georgian monastery is located inside. The monks are busy with beekeeping and the destruction of Armenian cultural heritage. It is saddening that while the "patriots" are destroying a unique Armenian cultural heritage, they do not realise that they are at the same time annihilating their own history and, moreover, an all-Christian heritage which reaches far beyond the realm of national importance. Gremi, the former capital of the Kingdom of Kakheti is located on the left bank of the river Alazan. It became the capital of Kakheti in the year 1466. Armenians played an important role in the development of the town, as the business and trades were in their hands. The town blossomed and developed further until the onset of the 17th century, before the devastating Persian invasions in 1614-1616 led by Sheikh Abasa. Many historical documents still tell of this era and the Armenian presence in Gremi, as cited by the historian Arakel Davrijetsi, and witness accounts collected by the Russian Embassy in the year 1640. Armenian Diocese in Georgia http://www.azg.am/?lang=EN&num=2005031001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Aren't Georgians sort of christian Turks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazarian Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Aren't Georgians sort of christian Turks? style_images/master/snapback.png I would not have such an attitude towards a friendly nation. Do not forget that the Georgians have had firndly relations to Armenia since the independence. When they themselves did not have electricity, they still let natural gas transport through their pipeline system in the early 90-s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Aren't Georgians sort of christian Turks? style_images/master/snapback.png Gamavor, I think in case of Georgians, we the Armenias are the ones who shortsightedly got them pissed off at us. And we are 100% guilty. Decades of "Mesrop Mashtos gave you your letters", "Shota Rustaveli was Armenian", "Tbilisi was and Armenians city" did their job. We now have what we created with our eternallty stupid political incorrectness on the level of individual contacts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Well, I guess you are right, but Tbilisi was almost entirely Armenian city and even Georgians don't dispute this. We however, never had any territorial claims regarding Georgia. Armenians and Georgians lived in Georgia since very long time but Georgia is THEIRS country not OURS. They should respect our respect to them. As to Mesrob Mashtots writing their alphabet...maybe I don't know. It definately (some characters) look very similar. Shota Rustavely being Armenian!! I never heard this! Genats to Shota then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Gams, yes many Armenians contributed to Tbilisies development and at some point indeed the city had significant Armenian population but sometimes you hear it from some Armenians talking to the Georgians is as if it belongs to us in some way. The miths about Rustaveli being Armenian and the letters were a very popular way to piss off Georgians half-jokingly around the table during the Soviet times. However, after the republics got independent Goergians started to see all this though a whole new prizm. This is a matter of choice. Either we should have stopped these petty claims about letters, writers etc. (as if we don't have enough of that stuff) or we lose a partner. I am sure this attitude contributed a lot to Georgia's anti-Armenian stance although it was not the crucial one. I don't think Georgian would change their political positions but I am sure no one would touch our churches, cemetaires or remove the Armenian names from 19 century Tbilisi buildings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Chgitem Shotan Hye er te voch Bayt te Sayt NOvan HAy er !!! Wahhh Tooo Armen janso we can't no longer sing the Ashxarhums inch kuzeyi Thiflis qaraqn im@s liner- song ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 yes mi ban chem haskanum es vratsinerits, darer sharunak hay@ tvele, nerdrele, tsaxkele u tsaxkatsrele et yerkir@, u esor inch ardaratsi patasxan pid ta Vratsi azg@ Hayi dimats hayi grezmanner@ qandelu hamar? Gamavor@ asume qristonya turqen, yes nchqan texyakem miayn Turqne vor edpisi barbarosakan motetsume tsuts tvell. Turq chen bayts Turqanman mi tarren. somexi a bayts lav txa a es cheyin? u es el kmnan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 miyak p@rkutyun@ - shutapuy kerpov Hayeri Qanak@ avelatsnel, zinel, yev mi 20 hatel el en poqrik Atomayin rumb hnarel - en 10 hatits batsy et jamanak tesnem te et shalikon or Jivani gerezman@ apakanela - inch ti asi to menq woch sochin enq uzum voch el soxumin - voch thxemalin voch el xinkalin menq en inchvor merna et enq ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 ARMENIA IS BEST FRIEND OF GEORGIA’ Revaz Gachechiladze, newly appointed Georgian Ambassador to Armenia, handed his credentials to Robert Kocharian and passed the words of Mikheil Saakashvili, saying that Armenia is the best neighbor for Georgia. Ambassador Gachechiladze was the Georgian Ambassador to Israel in 1998-2004. He has a good command of English, Polish, Turkish and Russian languages. He is the author of 17 books. He is an orientalist. azg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artaxias Posted March 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Uhh, the Georgian Asomtavruli alphabet was created by Mesrop Mashtots beyond a shadow of a doubt, along with the one for Alwanians. Their entire dynasty of Bagrations was an offshoot of Armenian Bagratunis. Their architecture is entirely based on Armenian architecture. tiflis was the Armenian capital of the world, evrything there has an Armenian connection one way or another. Lets not even discuss the origins of Nune What have they ever contributed to Armenia or the world? Stalin and Berja? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Uhh, the Georgian Asomtavruli alphabet was created by Mesrop Mashtots beyond a shadow of a doubt, along with the one for Alwanians. Their entire dynasty of Bagrations was an offshoot of Armenian Bagratunis. Their architecture is entirely based on Armenian architecture. tiflis was the Armenian capital of the world, evrything there has an Armenian connection one way or another. Lets not even discuss the origins of Nune What have they ever contributed to Armenia or the world? Stalin and Berja? style_images/master/snapback.png Oh yes, I forgot the "killer": Bagratounies were Armenian as well. Artaxias, here is the deal. Every single time you can't help yourself and say this to a Georgian you punch a terrible blow to Armenia's regional security and contribute to our possible blokade. You are certainly free to do so. What have Georgians contributed? First they have a much better cinematography than Armenians will EVER have. Generally, their performing culture is much more advansed. Also, they contributed by giving us a place (Tbilisi) where we could safely develop and prosper. Some 7 years back the Secretary of Defense of the US was a Georgian (John Salikashvili). I doubt any Armenian will get to the position. P.S. Niether Nune, nor Hripsime or Gayane were Armenians. They were all Romans or Greeks according to the legend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Oh yes, I forgot the "killer": Bagratounies were Armenian as well. no they were jewish to begin with, became loyal Armenian Dinasty, this is acourding to Khorenatsi, same is for Vratsis Artaxias, here is the deal. Every single time you can't help yourself and say this to a Georgian you punch a terrible blow to Armenia's regional security and contribute to our possible blokade. You are certainly free to do so. Armen, do you recall any healty relationship beetiwin our people over the centures? What have Georgians contributed? First they have a much better cinematography than Armenians will EVER have. Generally, their performing culture is much more advansed. Also, they contributed by giving us a place (Tbilisi) where we could safely develop and prosper. I guess having an adge in cinema gives them a right to rape our secret sites Some 7 years back the Secretary of Defense of the US was a Georgian (John Salikashvili). I doubt any Armenian will get to the position. why US stablishments have to be a indication who has contributed to the world? and, Armenians have contributed to the world far and much much more then Vratsis could come close to. mi xosk ka hayeren ur asvume, amen azgin, martun nuyn arshinov chen chapum, style_images/master/snapback.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 no they were jewish to begin with, became loyal Armenian Dinasty, this is acourding to Khorenatsi, same is for Vratsis Armen, do you recall any healty relationship beetiwin our people over the centures? That's right Edward. So, we should not make a big deal of it. In Georgia they where a Georgian dynasty. Anytime before 1918 Armenia and Georgia had normal relations. If you remember in 13 century joint Armenian-Georgian army liberated all Eastern Armenia and retook Ani from the Seljouks. What about Davit Bek? Who was he? A former commander of Georgian army. I guess having an adge in cinema gives them a right to rape our secret sites No, I am just saying that lot of people among us indirectly contribute to that situation by making Georgians angry with us. And if someone will say Georgians began it first I will doubt it. why US stablishments have to be a indication who has contributed to the world? and, It is one of the indicators, isen't it? Armenians have contributed to the world far and much much more then Vratsis could come close to. mi xosk ka hayeren ur asvume, amen azgin, martun nuyn arshinov chen chapum, style_images/master/snapback.png Why do you have to make a comparison? Again every time you mention that you agravate our relations. Edward jan, mer zhoghovrdakan khosqerum vor yes mangam hastat kgtnem mi asacvats vortegh kasvi, vor Vracinqeri het petq e lav linel, qani vor da mez himi dzernatu e. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Armen jan, ha hamamitem u qez hetem es hartsum, yes nuynisk kaseye vor turqya u azerbaijani hetel pity ashxarel lezu gtnel, bayts...... brnabarelov mer srpategher@ da urish xntire u pahanjume @sk arjanin, bayts menq nman bani @ntunak azg chenq, ay sranum yes hastat chem sxalvum. kan vat Hayer u vat Vratsiner, Hay@ aprele darer sharunak, vati u lavi mejev, tokosayin haraberutyamb Hay@ aveli e nerdrell Vratsakan arvesti, kentsaxi yev ayl@n............... u che vastakel en vor artaratsvi esorva mer srputyuneri brnabarum@ sranume amboxj xntrir@ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Armen jan, ha hamamitem u qez hetem es hartsum, yes nuynisk kaseye vor turqya u azerbaijani hetel pity ashxarel lezu gtnel, bayts...... brnabarelov mer srpategher@ da urish xntire u pahanjume @sk arjanin, bayts menq nman bani @ntunak azg chenq, ay sranum yes hastat chem sxalvum. kan vat Hayer u vat Vratsiner, Hay@ aprele darer sharunak, vati u lavi mejev, tokosayin haraberutyamb Hay@ aveli e nerdrell Vratsakan arvesti, kentsaxi yev ayl@n............... u che vastakel en vor artaratsvi esorva mer srputyuneri brnabarum@ sranume amboxj xntrir@ style_images/master/snapback.png Edward jan, en vor menq Turqiayi u Adrbejani het vat enq u petq e ashkhatenq et erkusis hamar el haskanali e. Byac orinak qo hamar taorinak che te inchu menq esqan xelaci azg linelov, chenq karoghanum Vracinerin mer nkatmamab chezoq tramadrel. Togh petakan arumov voch lav linen, voch el vat. Chezoq... inch vor irenc dzer ta tntesapes et el anen. Bayc che! Nranq mez hatuk chen sirum! Hetaqrqir chi inchuya edpes? Orinak yes chem havatum vor da galis e nranic vor Vraciq inch vor ahavor vat azg en. Inch vor urish ban ka estegh. Es qani angam em arden nkatel, vor ete Vracinerin harcnes "Um kuzenayiq nvastacenel vorpes azg?" Iranq mtqum hastat kaseyin "Hayerin". Irneq chein el mtatsi asenq Amerikacinerin nvastacenl, vorpeszi mets u haghtandam azg erevan. Iren kuzen da henc mez het anel, mer poqr azgi. Gites inchu? Vortev menq mer u irenc mej enpisi mrcakcutyun enq mtcrel, vor darerov chen karogh hanel. Qani angam em tesel, vor Hayere vracinerin edipsi patmutyunnerov Mesrop Mashotci masin hascrel en baracioren lacelu iravichaki. U Vraciq mer lavutyunnere chen hishi erbeq, vortev marde misht vatn a hishum. Tenc a drvatsqe es ashkharhi. Himi asenq Aram Khachatryan unenq, Sayat-Nova unenq, Parajanov unenq (3-n el Tifliseci i dep). Vraciq shat lav endunum en, vor sranq Hye en. Ba mez petq a dranc aybubene, kam Rustavelin kam ov en eghel irenc Bagrationinere. Menq mer qti pslinqe chen krum srbenq Hayastanum. Dubayum 1000-avor hye kanayq en tsakhvum. Mez himi petq er Vracinerin senc jghaynacnel. Gites inchpes er Gamsakurdian Vracinerin kataghacnum 1992-in? Na asum er: "Vraciner jan inchi duq chgiteq, vor Hayere dzez mardategh chen dnum? Inchi duq chgiteq vor hayere asum en mer aybubene irenq en steghtsel?". U Vraciq dranic jghaynanalov gnum haykakan gerezmanner ein jardum. Isk orinak et menq et mer partsenkotutyune mez paheyinq, Vraciq mer nkatmamb SHAT aveli tolerant klineyin. U yes gitem vor dranum mer meghqe mets e, vortev shat shat em nkatel te vonc en meronq Vraciqin gcum et vichaki mej. U voch miyn Vraciqin. Menq poqr azgi kompex unenq, jardvatsutyan komplex. Ete dra vrayov chancnenq, qashvelu enq. Ha u amena krevore! Ete menq es qaghaqakan vichakic durs ganq, menq der haryuravor haytni mardkanc ktsnenq, isk ete durs chganaq... Himi ptkeracru noric kriv sksvi Karabaghum u Vraciq mer sahmane paken... Isk mer ekeghecin, vor es shukhurnere badzracerela, inqe mi bizness dzernarkutyun a, vore es zhoghovrdin khabelov pogh a korzum. Im hamar aveli karevor a, vor vraci u hye eritasardnern irar het lav linen, qanc te mer anpetq ekegecin Tiflisum inch vor mi hat aveli ekeghecu shenq unena. Meka dranov nranq voch mi hatki qristonya es ashkharhum chen avelacnum. Da pazapes mi hat avel kassaya nranc hamar. Ays patcharov aveli lav e Vraciner het football-ic khosel, ev asel te inch uzhegh en nranq ayd timayin sportum, vore hayere khaghal chgiten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Armen jan, de vor xoranumenq xorananq mi qichel avelatsnem yes, mi qich aveli xor@ patmutyan mej, Hayastan@ ir ashxaragrakan irakanutyunits yellnelov hajax patnesh e yeghel Vrastanin nuyn Jakatagirin chi arjanatsel inch vor hayne tarel mashki vra, vor Vrastan@ baxti berumov che arjanatsel, sa mi koxm. shat xor@ chgnanq depi darer@ ayl 1920-1921 tvakan@ yerp Hayastan@ gtnvumer qaosayin vijakum, jart, sov, tif u hamajarak, u es jamanak menshevikyan Vratsi karavarutyun@ voroshets hartsakvel Hayasnani vra Turqi het miajamanak! yes Drastamat Kanayani Gerezmanin ay hets sra hamar mom em varell arjanin yet talu vratsun hima menq zijenq hanun inchi? vor mexki hamar? qani vratsi er krvum kazim karabekir *****i banaki dimats, kam banakum Hayi dem? che qani vratsi er dashnakits et shan@? menq enq u mer sarer@! yes aveli vstahutyun mi qutse kunenam azerii vra qants te vratsu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 ok Vratsis had/have far more and much better football I'll grant them that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 shat xor@ chgnanq depi darer@ ayl 1920-1921 tvakan@ yerp Hayastan@ gtnvumer qaosayin vijakum, jart, sov, tif u hamajarak, u es jamanak menshevikyan Vratsi karavarutyun@ voroshets hartsakvel Hayasnani vra Turqi het miajamanak! yes Drastamat Kanayani Gerezmanin ay hets sra hamar mom em varell arjanin yet talu vratsun Edward jan, Arajin Hanrapetutyan miak karavarutyune eghel e Dashnakcakan kusakcutyune. Bazmativ nviryal mardik unenalov irenc sharqerum, Dashnakneri ghekevarnere bazmativ qaghaqakan skhalner en tuyl tvel. Baci ayd Sovetakan miutyan zhamanak mer ev Vracineri mej shat motik haraberutyunner er steghtsvel. Petq cher et amen inche kortsnel. Chnayats yes gitem vor Vracineri mej nacionalisme uzheghacav, bayc menq petq e da ugheyin urishneri dem. Isk menq mer vra vercrinq da. YEs chem asum nranc havatal e petq. Bayc demokratiayi zhamank ete zhoghodurde qo nkatmamb lav es tramadrum, dranic miayl drakan effect karas stanas. Gone mardik chezoq klinen. hima menq zijenq hanun inchi? vor mexki hamar? qani vratsi er krvum kazim karabekir *****i banaki dimats, kam banakum Hayi dem? che qani vratsi er dashnakits et shan@? menq enq u mer sarer@! yes aveli vstahutyun mi qutse kunenam azerii vra qants te vratsu. style_images/master/snapback.png Qaghaqakanutyan mej vstahutay kategoria hamarya chka im kartsiqov. Himnakane da anvtangutyan qaghaparn e. Da nerkayis mijazgayin hamakargi korizn e. Petq e shrjapatum anvtangutyun steghtsel. Isk dra himanaka mojice chezoqutyan dzevavorumn e. Ete menq mer et pahanjneri targe tanq, irenq hastat mer ekeghecinere dzrq chen ta. Isk qaghaqakanutyune lriv urish khndir a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 (edited) Armen jan the first Armenian republic was a collision goverment. Edited March 13, 2005 by Edward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Gamavor, I think in case of Georgians, we the Armenias are the ones who shortsightedly got them pissed off at us. I guess they will not appreciate being called semi-barbarians either -- however, i don't think it would kill them to admit Armenia's contributions. Also, whatever their level of hostility to both Armenia and Russia, I think it is disgraceful that they happily connect the two Turk states. By the way, a couple of months ago i went to russia.com and read some of the commentary there. There was a Georgian there, writing about the 'evil' Russia. Anyway, he mentioned how Russians and Armenians ethnically cleansed Abkhazia of Georgians. Now imagine that, all this time I thought that it was Abkhazians that ethnically cleansed the Georgian population.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 I guess they will not appreciate being called semi-barbarians either -- however, i don't think it would kill them to admit Armenia's contributions. Also, whatever their level of hostility to both Armenia and Russia, I think it is disgraceful that they happily connect the two Turk states. By the way, a couple of months ago i went to russia.com and read some of the commentary there. There was a Georgian there, writing about the 'evil' Russia. Anyway, he mentioned how Russians and Armenians ethnically cleansed Abkhazia of Georgians. Now imagine that, all this time I thought that it was Abkhazians that ethnically cleansed the Georgian population.. style_images/master/snapback.png Skhara, currently our political positions are different with Georgia's. We are in different security systems and naturally we have issues. However, there is a geopolitical setting, where our interests are the same. It has happened many times and it will happen again. However, this church issue comes from a different source. If they admit the contributions we claim, they are left with almost nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazarian Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Skhara, currently our political positions are different with Georgia's. We are in different security systems and naturally we have issues. However, there is a geopolitical setting, where our interests are the same. It has happened many times and it will happen again. However, this church issue comes from a different source. If they admit the contributions we claim, they are left with almost nothing. style_images/master/snapback.png When you travel in the Lori region in Armenia, you can still encounter evidence of the Georgian influence on the Armenian churches. When you are in Armenia, drop by the church of Kober (Kobayr) and you will see the Georgian frescos and inscriptions on the walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 When you travel in the Lori region in Armenia, you can still encounter evidence of the Georgian influence on the Armenian churches. When you are in Armenia, drop by the church of Kober (Kobayr) and you will see the Georgian frescos and inscriptions on the walls. style_images/master/snapback.png Yes, those tall churches of Lori have the Georgian influence. Not only churches. For example Sayat-Nova is an Armenian but he has produced a transnational music and culture. Same goes for Parajanov. And these people are the crown of Armenian culture because they became higher than our national Ego not by rejecting it but using it to create something for the others nations. Very few nations achieve this and this is a factor that tells a lot about the level of given people. Both Sayat-Nova and Parajanov lived in Tbilisi and created equally for Armenians, Azerbaijanies and Georgians. Their creation is a regional phenomenon and not national, that is why it is so strong. I am saying all this because both of them where influenced strongly by Georgian culture. You simply cannot take them out of Tbilisi and sya they where only Armenians. We don't pay attention to it but there are songs like the "Shalakho" which are not Armenian or Georgian (although if you ask Georgians they will say it is theirs). These songs are a joint product of synthesis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 If they admit the contributions we claim, they are left with almost nothing. If they are left with almost nothing, I guess that leaves almost something right? If we want to be more cordial, friendly, and polite with them, we can at least play up that almost something -- and tell them "You see Vano jan, you are not so inferior." Only play up their real contributions -- not little fairy tales they are telling themselves, to make themselves feel better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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