What Is The Reason Behind The Denial?

[regmura]

Greetings.

 

I am really bad with introductions. So, I hope you can tolerate that. Anyway, I am a Turk, born and raised in Istanbul, currently living in the USA.

 

I am not here to bother you and your environment, but my intent is to be able to look at the other side of this humanity shame. If you ask me questions about matters regarding the structure of Turkish culture, politics, and social aspects, I will be glad to answer your questions, at least I will try. I believe the denial is highly related to invisible chains holding most of the Turks to speak out about this subject.

 

I am aware that most of you are familiar with the problems in Turkey, what the possible reasons are there to make it so hard for Turks to accept their ancestors' shame.

 

I am not here to defend what happened in 1915 or to blame Armenians being traitors. You can be sure I am not that blind.

 

Although I know that you don't need pity from me or anyone else, I understand your pain and I feel really sorry, and I apologize. Don't worry I am not going to tell, "Let's be friends and look at the future." (A quote from one of the forum members' doctrine about why you shouldn’t talk with Turks and Turk lovers)

 

Again, I am repeating myself, I am not here to argue what happened, I accept it but what I want to talk about is the reasons of the denial. So, as far as my concern is, you do not judge every Turk with the same stereotypes.

 

Also, if you are a person to talk about how race is important, how Turks are mixed, or they look ugly what so ever, I am not going to reply these kind of posts. I don't want to talk about how good-looking I am, how my mother is beautiful etc. These kinds of talks are for the racists who enjoy masturbation thinking how perfect they are.

 

Thanks and I hope I can receive some hospitality to be able to exchange some ideas and different approaches.

[phantom22]

Regmura,

 

Share with us your perspectives of that which is underlying the denial? You do realize that unless Turkey comes to terms with this issue, that her relationship with Europe will never be normalized.

[ED]

Welcome to hyeforum

 

 

 

Why isn’t there any mention of Armenian at the gates of Ani???? And why are Turkish military used/using Armenian historic sites for target practice??

 

The question at hand has a cultural approach I guess suitable for Turkish culture

 

Thanks

[regmura]

Regmura,

 

Share with us your perspectives of that which is underlying the denial? You do realize that unless Turkey comes to terms with this issue, that her relationship with Europe will never be normalized.

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Hi phantom22.

 

In Turkey, the major problem with young generations is not getting educated about "objective" history. Actually, most likely it is objective in many aspects, but when it is up to Armenian genocide, Turks do not have the chance to learn every detail about it. Students are presented a chaotic period of a big empire with so many ethnic groups in it, and they are told it was WWI, Germans were defeated, and we were allies with Germans, the whole Europe attacked us, we fought back.

 

While as a Turk you are listening this, and they say Armenians were traitors, they had plans with Russians, enemies aided them, you portray a scenario in your head. Being honest, nobody lectures students about how Armenians are bad or something like that, but somehow they were "out of the line" during those days.

 

And years pass... You learn and use your own capacity to find the facts. You want to talk about them, however if the teachers, the leaders, or the elders say something, it has to be true. Who are you to argue or say that they are not right! You keep everything to yourself, because there is an authority here, and no matter what how you make sense with your argument, you are not going to be accepted by your friends or other people. It is not because every Turk is close-minded, but there is always a fear of a power that can damage you or the ones you love. So most likely, you prefer to shut up. In Turkish communities, like discussion boards or forums, anyone, no matter what you say or how it is logical, can criticize you. Individuals are ok to be attacked in Turkish communities, but you cannot criticize the society as a whole, you cannot talk about the community as what we are in reality or its shared values, and what we do wrong&what we do right. Everybody finds something to get offended, or wrong. Because we are thought that nobody likes us, and we have enemies everywhere. This mentality is well known all over the world actually, every society and nation have used it somehow to create work force or re-union. However, it can be questioned if it is necessary in this era.

 

Well, believe or not things are changing in Turkey. Writers are talking about Armenian genocide, no matter what negative responses they can get. Also, people started talking and there will be more to come. It is not only about Armenian genocide, but there are many others for us to talk. It is just a matter of time to see these improvements.

 

Of course these are not the only reasons, there are many others for denial. I will try to write more detailed about what I told and many others. However, it is getting late and I should be in bed.

Edited March 10, 2005 by regmura

[regmura]

Welcome to hyeforum

Why isn’t there any mention of Armenian at the gates of Ani???? And why are Turkish military used/using Armenian historic sites for target practice??

 

The question at hand has a cultural approach I guess suitable for Turkish culture

 

Thanks

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Hi Edward,

 

Actually, it is mentioned. However, since it is a "hot" zone, you have to get official permission from tourist office. First of all, it is close to Armenia borders, and one other reason, the activities of PKK and many other terrorist groups (not related to Armenians) are around that area. I am not sure if it is still dangerous to go there, but there used to be reports of missing tourists captured by these kinds of terrorist groups. It is one of the reasons why it is not in front of the public eye too much. And I want to believe that it is the major factor why it is not told enough since rest of the Armenian architects all over in Turkey are promoted as tourist activities and as part of Turkey's geography background.

 

The historic sites are really important to Turks. Turks are not necessarily just proud of their own history but also all the historical monuments of the nations they contacted. While people think like that, I am not sure if the governments had special actions against Armenian remains, especially after 1965. However, the east part of Turkey has always been a hurting pain, really hard to guess what is going on. The economic status of East Turkey is unbelievably low, and this may lead people ruining historical areas to find something to sell and make "money." These are my guesses. I am not familiar of hearing about target practices at Armenian historic sites. I will make a research about it.

 

Thanks.

[DominO123]

Greetings.

 

I am really bad with introductions. So, I hope you can tolerate that. Anyway, I am a Turk, born and raised in Istanbul, currently living in the USA.

 

I am not here to bother you and your environment, but my intent is to be able to look at the other side of this humanity shame. If you ask me questions about matters regarding the structure of Turkish culture, politics, and social aspects, I will be glad to answer your questions, at least I will try. I believe the denial is highly related to invisible chains holding most of the Turks to speak out about this subject.

 

I am aware that most of you are familiar with the problems in Turkey, what the possible reasons are there to make it so hard for Turks to accept their ancestors' shame.

 

I am not here to defend what happened in 1915 or to blame Armenians being traitors. You can be sure I am not that blind.

 

Although I know that you don't need pity from me or anyone else, I understand your pain and I feel really sorry, and I apologize. Don't worry I am not going to tell, "Let's be friends and look at the future." (A quote from one of the forum members' doctrine about why you shouldn’t talk with Turks and Turk lovers)

 

Again, I am repeating myself, I am not here to argue what happened, I accept it but what I want to talk about is the reasons of the denial. So, as far as my concern is, you do not judge every Turk with the same stereotypes.

 

Also, if you are a person to talk about how race is important, how Turks are mixed, or they look ugly what so ever, I am not going to reply these kind of posts. I don't want to talk about how good-looking I am, how my mother is beautiful etc. These kinds of talks are for the racists who enjoy masturbation thinking how perfect they are.

 

Thanks and I hope I can receive some hospitality to be able to exchange some ideas and different approaches.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

 

You don't need to apologize, it is your government that should apologize, mainly for all those years of denial.

 

As for let be friend, I don't see what the problem is, an Armenian and a Turk could be friend as persons, but as nation, not of course, until the genocide is recognised.

 

Welcome to hyeforum, at times you may read abrasive comments regarding the Turks, take that as a grant of salt, they are not shared by everyone.

 

BTW, do you have any informations if whatever or not this is true? http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg104787.html

 

Did you heard anything about it?

 

Regards

[regmura]

You don't need to apologize, it is your government that should apologize, mainly for all those years of denial.

 

As for let be friend, I don't see what the problem is, an Armenian and a Turk could be friend as persons, but as nation, not of course, until the genocide is recognised.

 

Welcome to hyeforum, at times you may read abrasive comments regarding the Turks, take that as a grant of salt, they are not shared by everyone.

 

BTW, do you have any informations if whatever or not this is true? http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg104787.html

 

Did you heard anything about it?

 

Regards

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Hi and thanks QueBeceR.

 

I am aware that I shouldn't apologize but it is like a metaphor that I thought I should use, showing that I do not agree with what my government tells.

 

I don't see any problems either, being friend as persons is totally normal but I also think that individuals' relationships can be affected by government and communities' acts. There should be small steps, which may lead others to think on these things.

 

About Turgut Ozal, what I know is he was a person to discuss anything and talk about, so it can be true, but also, it could be a part of propaganda suggesting Ozal was a traitor and he was not a good leader. It was very popular to blackmail Ozal. Although it is something positive which is a plus for Ozal, he could lose his support amongst media. So, I would say there is %80 chance that he told it. I believe he was a person to discuss anything and talk about.

[DominO123]

Thanks regmura,

 

consider this place as your home.

BTW, how did you find out this forum, just wondering, and do you know other Turks who share your position, I do know myself others, but I just wondered if you knew some in person with who you discussed about the issue.

[shaunt]

Do you believe that their should be restitution for the acts committed against Armenians? If so, what type of restitution should the Turkish government offer to the Armenians? I am sure that the question of restitution is one of the main road-blocks to the acceptance of the genocide by the Turkish Republic.

 

I do not expect the Turkish government to cede any of its land to Armenians. Nor is it reasonable for Armenians to expect this. It is highly unrealistic. As is thinking that Turkey could afford to pay survivors and children of survivors a monetary value as the Germans are doing with the Jews. But what I think the Turkish government should do is provide an highly favorable economic enviroment to Armenians who might want to return to their homeland and operate businesses there. Let's admit it, Western Armenia has also been dirt poor under the Ottomans and still is today. Armenians could drastically change this situation. Regarding land claims, Armenians that have the deeds to their houses should get them back, with the Turkish government paying for the costs of locating the family that might be living there, and so forth.

 

Also, I would like to see Turkey fully affirm that Western Armenia is the homeland of the Armenians, and to stop their efforts attempting to prove otherwise. They must also acknowledge the importance of Armenians to the Ottoman Empire. Turkey is in need of a major history lesson.

 

These are just some thoughts I have on the issue. My name is Shaunt, and I am an Eastern Armenian (parents born in Tehran), or actually, make that an American-Armenian, .

 

Take care comrade.

[DominO123]

I know how Turkey could compensate, I already raised that issue in the past.

 

Turkey recognising Artsakh republic opening its border with Armenia, and giving access to Armenian compagnies to the Black sea without taxation etc.

 

If that happen, Armenia will recognise the State of Artsakh without sparking a war against Azerbaijan, then Russia will recognise it etc.

 

Those are the kind of reperations I expect.

[shaunt]

I never thought of Turkish recognition of Artsakh. If Turkey did that, I think that the even the most stubborn of Armenians will change their attitudes towards Turks .

 

And I definitely agree with the Black Sea idea. Economic benefits, in general, would be the best path for the Turkish government to take, as it benefits both Republics.

[regmura]

Thanks regmura,

 

consider this place as your home. 

BTW, how did you find out this forum, just wondering, and do you know other Turks who share your position, I do know myself others, but I just wondered if you knew some in person with who you discussed about the issue.

style_images/master/snapback.png

Thank you again for your hospitality.

 

I didn't hear this forum before, I think it was couple days ago I found the address and started reading some of the discussions here.

 

I have visited many websites about Armenian genocide which they have discussion forums at many of them. However, I never tried to post any of my opinions because of the hatred messages, threats, and insults going around. Not necessarily Armenian or Turkish but people from a lot of different countries. From my perspective, if you are against a humanity shame like this, a result of racism and ethnocentrism, you shouldn't use insults to people. Thus, I was sure a retarded Turk would come and accuse me being an Armenian lover, traitor or a half-breed. And they would say we are the master race, another will say no we are, another absurd guy who is totally a stranger to the subject will say that Islam or Christianity is the best religion, that's why things happen and bla bla and more bla bla bla...

 

Yet, I don't care what people say about me but it doesn't work for me and what I say. Nobody is going to read a discussion topic if it is full insults and the same crap that people were telling about these subjects for such a long time. Somehow, I saw this forum's url in one of those websites and checked it. Being honest, at first I thought there were similar people here that I wouldn't be able to talk. However, I saw many other principled posts here, so I decided to try my chance to communicate.

 

Yes, there are other Turks like me and they are not just a few. I frequently follow a Turkish community website, which people talk and discuss. According to my observations from that website, which has great numbers of users, I can say there are a lot of people who shares the same feelings with me. No need to mention, back in my country at least half of my friends share the same opinions.

[Dave]

Welcome to hyeforum, regmura.

 

Economic benefits are nice - something that Armenia needs. There are many ways to compensate the descendants of Genocide Survivors. For example, they can build a casino or something, dedicated only to this...

 

Regarding land claims, Armenians that have the deeds to their houses should get them back, with the Turkish government paying for the costs of locating the family that might be living there, and so forth.

 

Do you think the Kurds and Turks in Eastern Turkey would accept us among them, or would they treat us as outsiders, or ''gyavur''?

 

I think Turkey should also give the freedom of the Kurdified or Turkified Armenians, to return being Armenian by adopting Armenian surnames, etc. I'd be also happy if Turkey treats the Armenian monuments better.

[regmura]

Hi shaunt and Dave. I am going to add my post about what I think on your questions later tonight or in the morning. I have to finish a project tonight, so I should better concentrate on that one. Take care. Edited March 11, 2005 by regmura

[Siamanto]

I am aware that most of you are familiar with the problems in Turkey, what the possible reasons are there to make it so hard for Turks to accept their ancestors' shame.

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Citizens of TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey are as guilty and responsible as their ancestors.

You should not accept an inheritance i.e. the Armenian Lands, if you are not willing to assume certain liabilities and/or responsibilities!

Why should we continue to suffer from the consequences - and be handicapped because - of the atrocities that you are continuing to shamelessly benefiting from?

How about the Kurdish issue - that is still conjugated in the present tense? With all due respect, *urks still have the mindset - of nomadic warriors/looters - they had for centuries and generations!

 

 

 

In Turkey, the major problem with young generations is not getting educated about "objective" history. Actually, most likely it is objective in many aspects, but when it is up to Armenian genocide,

style_images/master/snapback.png

Can you please explain what is "objective" in the all reconstructed History and the all fabricated image *urks are trying to create of themselves? Thanks!

 

 

 

I know how Turkey could compensate...

Turkey recognising Artsakh republic opening its border with Armenia, and giving access to Armenian compagnies to the Black sea without taxation etc.

....

Those are the kind of reperations I expect.

style_images/master/snapback.png

You call that a compensation?

That is comparable to promising a "prestigious" and fictitious make-believe title - pompously and deceitfully called "promotion" - to an employee who is rightfully asking for a raise!

Armenians are not a bunch of idiots!

In Armenian, we call that: "martou vra kh@ntal."

 

In any case, who cares whether *urks recognize Artsakh or not? What's in it for us, Armenians?

 

 

 

 

Note: I have chosen to auto censor the word "*urk" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations!

Edited March 11, 2005 by Siamanto

[TellMeWhy]

hi everybody

ı am also Turk as regmura, and do not want to disturb or bother you.Before you do not ask me where to find out this forum, I wanna answer:

ın google search

because ı am interested in so-called genoide,

Do not get angry with me because of using the word so called.

there is a problem with my nationality,there should be the right to defend myself.

What ı am gonna write is only my thought.

You always say that Turkey must recognize the genoside, I can not understand why you behave like this.Why can not ı understand?

You always say the genoside but when the time comes to disclose the documents about your claims, you have no attemp to do it.

two days ago Turkey said that there should be an unbiased and impartial study into allegations that the Ottoman Empire carried out acts of genocide against the Empire’s Armenian citizens during the First World War but if ı am not wrong,the minister of foreign affairs of Armenia said that turkey's offer can not be accepted because it is not need to do it again. but if ı were you, ı would use this great oppotunity to show the whole world the real faces of Turks?It is sensible but you do not

If you really believe that so called genoside is true,why do not want to do this about it?

But if you persist in doing like this, you should not wait Turkey to make any efforts to solve the problem.

And finally ı do not want anybody to get angry with me because ı do not want to hurt anybody. ı am writing this because ı got bored of being seen or being shown responsible for so called genoside ( ı mean as a turk). My all problem is this. I want to know that if your so sensible about the Jewish Genoside? And what should be wanted today's German to do for it?

take good care of you

have a nice day

To Siamanto: We are not the citizens of temporarily so called Turkey, get it? We are the owners of this lands and will be ...

[Sip]

hi everybody ...

 

You are a so called idiot. I'm sure regmura will explain to you why that is.

[Siamanto]

To Siamanto: We are not the citizens of temporarily so called Turkey, get it? We are the owners of this lands and will be ...

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

"But that's a temporary condition." (Parliament - Chocolate City. )

 

We shall do our best to dismantle the safe haven for all sorts of criminals, TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey!

Edited March 11, 2005 by Siamanto

[shaunt]

Dave, it might be like the situation in Krasnodar, where Cossacks have issues with Armenians taking over jobs and businesses. I think over time things will work themselves out.

 

Siamanto, what more do you expect in terms of restitution? We have to be realistic regarding restitution. If you seek heavy compensation, you'll end up punishing Turks that had nothing to do with the genocide.

 

Tellmewhy, what can be established through a joint study of the events by Turkey and Armenia? Points have been made, sides argued for. This is why I am joint studies: the genocide has been proven by a vast majority of scholars.

 

Welcome to the boards Tellmewhy. Hopefully you and Regmura will stay here for a while. It's always good to have Turkish views present.

 

Edit: There is no reason to call anyone an idiot Sip.

Edited March 11, 2005 by shaunt

[ED]

Tellmewhy, you remind me of another idiot who came and went before you, if you wish to post here in this forum then have something contstractive to say, other wise take your school-boy aprouch somewhere else, now piss off and dont even think posting another post like your first one, I will give you another chance to post. Its up to you

[shaunt]

Regmura stated:

 

"Again, I am repeating myself, I am not here to argue what happened, I accept it but what I want to talk about is the reasons of the denial."

 

This is not a thread about the truth or falsity of the genocide per se. So do not let it turn into one. Moderators take note of this.

[ED]

Shaunt thanks.

 

 

the statement in which you quoted is reflecting why today Turkey is in denial, I don’t think she is questioning why it happened, there can be no explanation of why a nation commits a Genocide, I/m very much interested to get perspective from Ordinary Turkish point of why Today Turkey keeps so defensive and spends lots of resources in denial campaign realizing I guess its a loosing fight, however interesting thread has come out of Turkey laity, both in public awareness and as well as in the government, just a few days ago Turkish PM called for a study of AG, now this might be a positive step in a right direction or simply a dust blown into political arena in the wake of Turkey-EU corridor, interesting developments are enfolding and I for one would not rule out sincerity of some Turks who are willing and are eager to put AG behind them, after all lets face it, Armenia and Turkey will live next to each other for many years to come, having a lasting peace will only benefit both people

 

 

Edited for some spelling errors

Edited March 11, 2005 by Edward

[regmura]

Citizens of TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey are as guilty and responsible as their ancestors.

You should not accept an inheritance i.e. the Armenian Lands, if you are not willing to assume certain liabilities and/or responsibilities!

Why should we continue to suffer from the consequences - and be handicapped because -  of the atrocities that you are continuing to shamelessly benefiting from?

How about the Kurdish issue - that is still conjugated in the present tense? With all due respect, *urks still have the mindset - of nomadic warriors/looters - they had for centuries and generations!

Can you please explain what is "objective" in the all reconstructed History and the all fabricated image *urks are trying to create of themselves? Thanks!

You call that a compensation?

That is comparable to promising a "prestigious" and fictitious make-believe title - pompously and deceitfully called "promotion" - to an employee who is rightfully asking for a raise!

Armenians are not a bunch of idiots!

In Armenian, we call that: "martou vra kh@ntal."

 

In any case, who cares whether *urks recognize Artsakh or not? What's in it for us, Armenians?

Note: I have chosen to auto censor the word "*urk" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations!

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I wouldn't reply to you, but I couldn't help myself.

 

First of all, I cannot see any difference between you and some Turks that I personally know. Generally speaking, all these guys have glorious days, a history that goes back and back, and you know what? They are also, always, the "good guys." There is no bad guy in this world, everybody claims that they are good and the others are bad. It is some of the Turks' problem, maybe you have a similar problem in that way, too. Anyway between these people, there are no difference, just some brand labels, that's all. However, I don't want to talk with a person who thinks that Turks are a lower race or evil. Don't worry I wouldn't talk with a Turk who has similar viewpoints to yours. So, nothing personal but something to do with thinking. Thanks and have a nice life.

 

PS: I really don’t want this topic to turn into a useless “We didn’t, you did, you are bad&evil, Turks are barbarians, Armenians are traitors” hate threat. There are many other topics and boards full of these kind of things. What is the point of having the same thing here? Please read my first post again if you are not sure why I am here. It is not a chance for you or Tellmewhy to jump into a discussion of who is the bad guy.

[regmura]

Do you believe that their should be restitution for the acts committed against Armenians? If so, what type of restitution should the Turkish government offer to the Armenians? I am sure that the question of restitution is one of the main road-blocks to the acceptance of the genocide by the Turkish Republic.

 

I do not expect the Turkish government to cede any of its land to Armenians. Nor is it reasonable for Armenians to expect this. It is highly unrealistic. As is thinking that Turkey could afford to pay survivors and children of survivors a monetary value as the Germans are doing with the Jews. But what I think the Turkish government should do is provide an highly favorable economic enviroment to Armenians who might want to return to their homeland and operate businesses there. Let's admit it, Western Armenia has also been dirt poor under the Ottomans and still is today. Armenians could drastically change this situation. Regarding land claims, Armenians that have the deeds to their houses should get them back, with the Turkish government paying for the costs of locating the family that might be living there, and so forth.

 

Also, I would like to see Turkey fully affirm that Western Armenia is the homeland of the Armenians, and to stop their efforts attempting to prove otherwise. They must also acknowledge the importance of Armenians to the Ottoman Empire. Turkey is in need of a major history lesson.

 

These are just some thoughts I have on the issue. My name is Shaunt, and I am an Eastern Armenian (parents born in Tehran), or actually, make that an American-Armenian, .

 

Take care comrade.

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Well, as you also stated, it is an unrealistic approach with the circumstances today. In my opinion, a Turkey handling all the issues at the hand, improving the sociological level and later joining to EU, would be able to create bridges between two countries. Such as a pact between two countries similar to what you said. But, as you are aware of it already, it is a long process. It needs time: not because of ignorant individuals that do not want to accept the times are changed, but the obvious situation of Turkey's economy right now.

Edited March 11, 2005 by regmura

[phantom22]

There is a middle ground, and it should be discovered. It should be discovered at a negotiating table.

 

Dr. Reshid called the Armenians he had killed, including my grandfather, "vermin" to be eradicated like microbes.

 

Those who respond as Siamanto did are not doing anyone any good by considering all Turks in the same manner. Our issues are not with individual Turks, per se, but with the policies of the Turkish government and it's approach to minorities, both Christian and Moslem.