-ik, -ak, -uk

[Arpa]

In another post it was debated that those suffixes are not necessaritly of Persian origin as asserted by Ajarian and at various times by some of our forumers.

I agree.

In that post I also was tempted to respond to Kakchik's assertion that Ajarian's masterpiece has been contested since. I am aware of that, and can and will show where I have disagreed with him and found some of his work incomplete at best.

 

As to the subject at hand, let us see what we can come up with.

Are the diminutive suffixes -ik, -ak, -uk of Persian origin or are they purely Armenian, IE.

[kakachik77]

i don't think purely Armenian, i am more curious to know what other language have them. I will say

 

Russian

probably Ukrainian and number of other slavik languages

guessing scandinavian too

Farsi

[Iran01]

As to the subject at hand, let us see what we can come up with.

Are the diminutive suffixes -ik, -ak, -uk of Persian origin or are they purely Armenian, IE.

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Dear Arpa

 

If you ask about today! Those suffixes are Armenian.

If you think about 1700 years ago! They are Perso-Armenian.

If you want to go furthur! They are of IE origin.

 

Anyway here comes an informative post from other forum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Persian suffix -ik

The suffix -ik or -ig, which was widely used in Middle Persian for creating adjectives, has changed into -i in Modern Persian. However it is extant in a small number of words: târik, nazdik, zandik (Arabicized zandiq), bârik. Note also that all -i's in Modern Persian do not come from –ik; many derive from -ih, which created nouns. But I will not expand on this subject here.

 

Examples for -ik from Pahlavi:

 

cihrik, cihrig = natural

gohrik, gohrig = natural, essential

gumânik, gumânig = doubtful

kunišnik = doable; related to action

mânik, mânig = household belonging, household member

manik = mine, related to me

narik = related to male

xvartik, xwarišnig = edible

gâsânik, gâhânig = related to the Gathas

dâtik, dâdig = legal, concerned with the law

 

In recent years -ik has been reactivated in technical terminology for reproducing the European -ics, -ique (from Latin icus, Greek -ikos), and this has resulted in many new words already published in books and articles. Examples:

 

âvâyik = phonetics

farmânik = cybernetics

zabânik = linguistics

neviseyik = graphemics, from nevise (graphem)

partâbik = ballistics

niruyik = dynamics

characteristic = sereštnešânik

antithetic = pâdnahâdik

 

It has even been used in combination with Arabic words:

 

sowtik = accoustics

zibâhesik = aesthetics

semantics = ma’nâyik

 

There are several reasons for the revival of -ik, mainly:

 

a) In the European scientific terminology, branches of science are mainly denoted with two suffixes:

 

1) -logy (French –logie): biology, geology, mineralogy, etc.

2) -ics (French -ique): biotics, dynamics, kinematics, mathematics, etc.

 

Without -ik, both suffixes were translated into -šenâsi: zaminšenâsi, giyâhšenâsi, kânišenâsi, partâbšeni, etc. The suffix -ik allows new possibilities in word making, for example:

 

biology = zistšenâsi

biotics = zistik

ballistics = partâbik.

 

Moreover, it produces helpful semantic nuances. Let us look into the case of this last example. If we choose partâbšnâsi, instead of partâbik, we run into some problems. How should we translate ballistic missile? Mušak-e partâbšnâsi, mušak-e partâbšenâxti, mušak-e partâbšnâsâne? But no matter which one we choose among the above-mentioned possibilities, we stay with a problem. The reason is that ballistic here does not focus on the science (-šenâsi) but on the nature of throwing. The use of -ik allows us to avoid this problem: mušak-e partâbik.

 

c) As mentioned above, phonetically speaking it is not straightforward in Persian to make adjectives from words ending in -i, , for example with -šnâsi. The use of -ik answers this question and produces adjectives which themselves do not end in -i, for ex.:

 

astronomical unit = yekâ-ye axtaršnâsik, instead of axtaršnâxti.

 

 

http://www.iranianlanguages.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=214

[Iran01]

For "ak" you can read last post in page 1 and the rest in pages 2:

 

http://www.iranianlanguages.com/forum/view...=mardak&start=0

[shaunt]

I don't know about uk, but I know that ak is Persian, and that ik is partly indigenous, and partly Persian.

[kakachik77]

Iran, is IK/AK used in Persian as diminutive suffix

 

like in Armenian

 

tun (house) - tunik (little house)

 

like in Russian

 

dom (house) - domik (little house)

[Arpa]

For "ak" you can read last post in page 1 and the rest in pages 2:

 

http://www.iranianlanguages.com/forum/view...=mardak&start=0

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Dear Iran, thank you for your replies, very interesting and educational. However that is not the kind of -iks and -aks we are talking about.

In the Armenian all those suffixes are diminutive i.e. giving the word a sense of smallness as in gund meaning globe and gnd-ak or gnd-ik makes it a small globe, meaning ball in the first instance and marble in the second. In the English/Latin it will be glob-ule. They also render the word an eandearing sense, such as mama becomes mamik and papa becomes papik to mean little mama and little papa respectively. Many more examples. One intersting one is the word shun/dog which is not an endearing term by any stretch of imagination, the word for the offspring of a dog is yet another non-endearing term- lakot, however when we take shun and add -ik it becomes cute and andearing shunik, namely a cute puppy.

 

Also when I said that I could not think of any examples in other than Armenian I may have lied, kind of. Consider words like mommy and daddy, as well as puppy. Do you see what I see? It is the eandearing and dimnutive ee sound without the Armenian K ending. There are examples of the aaa sound, once again without the K, as in papa and mama

[Arpa]

So far we have seen examples of -ik and -ak, yet to come is -uk suffix. I have a few words in mind but I will wait.

In the meantime all the suffixes are used to make proper names diminutive and endearing as well, like in Anush/Anushik, Harut/Harutik, Movses/Mossik and Sip/Sipik. No. Strike the last one it does not sound too good . As we can see I used the -ik in these examples, let's see how -ak and -uk are used in proper names.

[Iran01]

Yes it is used as diminutive suffix but NOT as widely as in Armenian.

And when it is used it has "double face"!

 

For ex it is okey to say:

Pesarak, little boy

doxtarak, little girl

mâmânik ( my little Mother) , not so common as mâmâni.

 

Same time if you use it for man and woman it is insult:

mardak

zanak

 

 

But you can say:

Teflak , little child ( used sympathetically for both children and adults)

[Iran01]

About -uk but not !

 

 

The Persian excess suffix -u

The suffix -u in Persian forms adjectives/nouns often with a sense of excess, more especially in dialects. Examples:

 

kermu

axmu

šekamu

qahru

 

In the western Iran Lori :

 

loccu : fat lips

pettu : big nose

mofu

laqaru : very small

lemmu

 

In Eastern Iran Qâeni:

 

In Qâeni this suffix is -uk:

 

geryuk : cry to much and often

xanduk

sarmâuk

šarmuk

lerruk

doruquk : lie to much

 

 

http://www.iranianlanguages.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=305

Edited January 29, 2005 by Iran01

[Dave]

What about words like ''papak''? (wish) Does it have anything to do with the suffix ''-ak''? Edited January 29, 2005 by Dave

[kakachik77]

so it seems like the Armenian usage of IK/AK as dimminutive suffixes has roots elsewhere (meaning not from Persian). It is used both in Western and Eastern Armenian so it cannot be a direct influence from Russian. I don't know, quite interesting.

[Iran01]

The suffix -IZE/IZ is related to the suffix -CE/-ICE, meaning small (or a small version of something). The Pahlavi language included only the -cak/-icak/-ic forms which in Persian have evolved into 2 forms -ize/-iz/-iže as well as -ce/-ice.

 

 

http://www.iranianlanguages.com/forum/view...highlight=#3135

 

 

 

In Persian we have a diminutive suffix which is reminiscent of the Latin suffix -ule (-ulus (masc.), -ula (fem.), -ulum (neut.)). Examples:

 

 

http://www.iranianlanguages.com/forum/view...ighlight=suffix

[shaunt]

Zhurvan, I finally have that book in my hand. Here is what it says regarding -ak and -ik.

 

-ak:

 

One of the most widespread elements of Armenian nominal stress formation is the Iranian loan suffix -ak which is extremely common in substantives and adjectives alike. The exact Mr source is frequently attested, but in some cases we only have evidence for the individual base word beisde the borrowed suffix. On such occassions it is naturally impossible to decide with certainty whether we are faced with an internal creation consisting of two borrrowed elements, or the complete lexeme has been taken over from MIr without its being yet attested in the source language. However, judging from the occuraences of -ak added to a demonstrably non-Iranian stem, the suffix had only gained real productivity within Armenian in the derivation of diminutives, at least at this state of the language, and even though there are examples from other smenatic categories where -ak is added to an indigenous base word there mostly seems to exist an exact Iranian model, so that it is more appropriate to speak of a combination of borrowing of the suffix and loan translation of the nominal stem. Thus it generally seems warranted to project an Iranian-looking non-diminutive derivative in -ak back in the source language.

 

In MIr -ak originally mainly -ka derivatives of a-stems playing a rather unobstrusive part in Old Iranian, had an extraordinary productivity, and many of these words are quite naturally assimilated in Arm concurrently with all thes rest of the Iranian loanwords. To the more important functions of the suffix in MIr belongs the creation of denominal adjectives and nouns derived from adjectives, eg instrument nouns; it is also used for the derivation of verbal abstracts and for secondary suffication of compounds. In general the suffix frequently serves the purpose of turning the meaning fo aggiven noun into 'something resembling' or 'having to do with' that which is expresed by the base word, but in many cases nothing essentiual is added to the meaning. An alternative source of Arm -ak may be MIr -ak (line above a) which is used for the formation of present participles or agent nouns.

 

It is remarkable that the diminutive function which is so predominant in Arm does not appear to be particularly characteristic for the MIr material. However, as argued by Jahowkyan, it may have been more common in the colloquial variant of the language whihc must have exerted a massive influence on the Arm speaking community.

 

Since this is merely an investigation of the Armenian as such, and since the function of thes suffix is already quite vague in MIr, a detailed description of the functional range and historical background of the Iranian derivatives has not been attempted here, and the following classfication in semantic categories has been simply made on the basis of the Arm evidence.

 

In accordance with the Iranian sources the inflection of both substantives and adjectives in -ak is almost exclusvielyy that of the a-stems, the only exeptions being the o-stems 'carak' (pasture), a well established loanword, and 'vastak' (labour, work) perhaps <*upastaka-.

 

As opposed to the suffixes -ik and -owk which both seem to have a double origin, partly Iranian and party indigenous, there are no pa rticular indications of an inherited element as an alternative source of -ak; cf however 10.3 on the possible exceptions 'hasak', 'aghaghak' and 'sowtak."

 

Olsen, The Noun in Biblical Armenian.

[shaunt]

Here is what she says for -ik:

 

There are two main types of adjectival and suibstanvial deriviatives in -ik, one exhibiting a-stem inflection where -ik is explained as a MIr loan suffix which became productive in Armenian, the other partly created an n-stem apparently comparable to that of -owk/-kac vs -owk/-kanc, and the borrowed version of the suffix must further be seen in connection with the more common laon suffix -ak/-kac

 

The MIr suffix -ik (line above i) appears to be of a double origin: most exmaples should be derived from Ir -yaka- ie secondary derivatives in -ka- from nouns or adjectives in -ya- thus eg MP m'hyk' (fish) <*masyaka and d'tyk' (legal) <*datyaka etc., but there may also be cases where MIr -i- (line above i) represents a lenghtened -i- so that ik is a reflection of OIr -ika- or -ika (line above a) as in MP plyk (witch) ~Av pairika.

 

The derivatives supplied by an n-stem in the oblique cases and in the plural share a more of less obvious function as diminutives with the exception of mardik which is a collective 'people.' As is the case with 'manowk' 'mankan' (little child) the basic source of this type is probably a suffical *-k- (which may or may not have been subject to expressive gemination) added to the stem vowel of the simplex, and further extended by an n-stem, whether original or based on an older suffix *-nV- and secondarily transferred to the n-stem paradigm. Of course it is impossible to specify the elements of this suffix conglomerate with any certainty, but one may imagine a development somehow parallel to that of the Germanic diminutive in *-ikina- (line above i) (OS 'skipikin' (little ship)) which are at the very least characterized by a similar absence of sound shift of *-k- and a similar coupling with a secondary suffix containing an *-n- as the Armenian type.

 

Like -ak, the Iranian loan suffix -ik became vastly productive during the history of the language, but in the Bibilical corpus this development is only just beginning. The type in -ik, -kan, on the other hand, is restricted to a few indigenous stems.

[shaunt]

I can't find anything for -uk, but I'm going to check it out, so I can search a bit further (the book is over 1000 pages long).

[Arpa]

There may be many academic studies about the subject.

In my opinion all those suffixes are bnadzayn, onomatopoeic, i.e. based on sound. In this case based on baby talk.

Just as we saw above that the -ik suffix is evident in many languages one way or other, mostly sounding "ee", as in mommy and daddy. It is customary when talking to a baby to play silly games, apparently babies like it when when we say matik instead of mat(finger), totik instead of vot (foot), qtik instead of qit (nose), achuk instead of achq(eye) etc.

As to the -uk, the best known is "manuk" (child) is supposed to be the diminutive form of "menu" a native Armenian word to mean small. The -uk ending makes it even morendearing. Therefore manuk will be "little little one", sometimes we use "marduk" as well. No, not that marduk the evil spirit.

 

Let us all sing;

Tsapik, tsapik tsirani.

Or..

Mknik, mknik, char mknik

 

Now that we are not babies anymore we sholud probably sing;

Tsap, tsap tsiran.

 

Edit: I forgot to add that in the case of "manuk" we go even a step further and say "mankik". I guess it makes it doubly endearing. Poqrik would be another (redundant) one.

 

Test. What are the most eandearing words ending in -ik?

Hint. Look at the familty tree.

Edited February 1, 2005 by Arpa

[ED]

Arpaik jan Barekam, karoghes ardyoq parzabanel im anuns vortexitse bxum?

Ed-Vart? does Ed stand for ( aru ) Vart or, we are having a debate in our family, and does my name Edvart has anything to do with Vartavar?

 

Thank you

[Arpa]

Arpaik jan Barekam, karoghes ardyoq parzabanel im anuns vortexitse bxum?

Ed-Vart? does Ed stand for ( aru ) Vart or, we are having a debate in our family, and does my name Edvart has anything to do with Vartavar?

 

Thank you

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Yes Ed-ik jan. Here it is.

 

More here; http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.ph...ms=edward&nmd=n

 

EDWARD

Gender: Masculine

Usage: English, Polish

Pronounced: ED-wurd [key]

Extra Info: Popularity, Related Names, Namesakes, Name Days, Websites

Options: Contribute Information

Means "rich guard", derived from the Old English elements ead "rich, blessed" and weard "guard". Saint Edward the Confessor was the king of England shortly before the Norman Conquest. Because of his popularity this name remained in use after the conquest (most other Old English names were replaced by Norman ones), and was even the name of eight subsequent kings of England. Edward is also one of the few Old English names to be used throughout Europe

 

Many Vardavars do anglicize their names to Edward, so do may Yervands.

[ED]

Thanks Arpa jan

 

So "Ed-Vart" has a connection to vartavar as I understood?

I was born at the day of Vartavar so my folks name me after it, I heard from my elders "Ed" means "ARU" in some anciant Armenian dialects.

[shaunt]

There may be many academic studies about the subject.

In my opinion all those suffixes are bnadzayn, onomatopoeic, i.e. based on sound. In this case based on baby talk.

Just as we saw above that the -ik suffix is evident in many languages one way or other, mostly sounding "ee", as in mommy and daddy. It is customary when talking to a baby to play silly games, apparently babies like it when when we say matik instead of mat(finger), totik instead of vot (foot), qtik instead of qit (nose), achuk instead of achq(eye) etc.

 

This would explain the indigenous aspect of the suffix -ik. How about the Iranian aspect?

[kakachik77]

Thanks Arpa jan

 

So "Ed-Vart" has a connection to vartavar as I understood?

I was born at the day of Vartavar so my folks name me after it, I heard from my elders "Ed" means "ARU" in some anciant Armenian dialects.

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EG not ED and even then it means female not male

 

Ed, I am kind of surprised that you did not know that your name was not of Armenian origin

[ED]

EG not ED and even then it means female not male

 

Ed, I am kind of surprised that you did not know that your name was not of Armenian origin

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I did know Edward was not of Armenian origin Kakachik, I'm more curios about Ed and Vart, and it’s not EG its EQ

[kakachik77]

I did know Edward was not of Armenian origin Kakachik, I'm more curios about Ed and Vart, and it’s not EG its EQ

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you're right it's pronounced EQ.

 

I read somewhere on Hyeforum that Armenian EG/EQ and the word EGG have the same root, that was quite a revelation to me.

[Iran01]

dear Shaunt

 

Thank you for those informative posts.