What Is The Attraction To Moslem Men?

[Sip]

Are you joking? You actually want me to make direct links between what Islam teaches and its oppression of women? ...

 

I don't know if you read what went on earlier but basically it started off as him claiming the "hijab" is a choice for the woman. After about a zillion back and forths, he finally admitted that the Hijab in fact is not a choice under Islam. I would love to see how long it will take for him to finally admit what you are trying to do.

 

It's like pulling teeth with him. He will eventually admit it if you lead him down the right series of questions. But it takes a loooooooong time and I don't really know if it's worth it.

[Sassun]

I don't know if you read what went on earlier but basically it started off as him claiming the "hijab" is a choice for the woman. After about a zillion back and forths, he finally admitted that the Hijab in fact is not a choice under Islam. I would love to see how long it will take for him to finally admit what you are trying to do.

In fact , I admitted to no such thing. You are attaching my name to YOUR reading of what I said.

 

 

[Sip]

In fact , I admitted to no such thing. You are attaching my name to YOUR reading of what I said.

 

I will refresh your memory sir:

 

It is a requirement in that in theory they are supposed to wear it !

 

But if they do not wear it does not mean I will consider them Muslim !

 

Just because someone is Muslim 'on paper' does not mean he now has a free pass to do anything he wants under the banner of Islam. If he chooses to do so, then he would rightfully no longer be considered Muslim.

 

If they do not wear it, they cannot at the same time force an opinion down our throats. As I said, if you do not like the religion, do not take it as your own, rather than proclaim yourself as religious and try to manipulate it to your own ends. Yes, there is no freedom in manipulating Islam.

 

and most importantly (where you slipped up ):

 

The Niqab is not a requirement in Islam , only Hijab is.

You are still going to say you didn't say it? It's right there, plain and simple. Yes, I am definitely seeing your name attached to what I am reading. And what I am reading is you saying over and over that Hijab is a requirement in Islam and that requirements in Islam cannot be modified like buffets. Are you really trying to back out of what you have said? That would be VERY very very lame after wasting all this time trying to "discuss" your beliefs.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sip

[Sassun]

Sipan , I said Hijab is a choice. Muslim women can make the choice not to wear the Hijab. Hence Hijab is a choice for Muslims. The end result is another matter altogether.

 

Are you really trying to back out of what you have said? That would be VERY very very lame after wasting all this time trying to "discuss" your beliefs.

No, I am not backing out of anything I have said. What I have said is clear. The issue of choice in terms of wearing the Hijab is as follows:

 

A woman is seeking a job, she goes for interview, they tell her that she is hired and tell her that she has to come to work without Hijab because that is the rules of the private company (assuming that this would not count as religious discrimination). She has a choice to make, betw. removing the Hijab & getting the job, and keeping the Hijab and not getting the job. That is a clear choice. The consequences are another matter. She does have the choice, that is the point.

 

Btw what do you think about that fatwa? looool

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sassun

[Sip]

Sipan , I said Hijab is a choice. Muslim women can make the choice not to wear the Hijab. Hence Hijab is a choice for Muslims. The end result is another matter altogether.

 

Those are YOUR quotes above. Tell me which of YOUR quotes are wrong. None of those quotes say "hijab is a choice". They all say Hijab is a requirement.

 

[MosJan]

Sip jan ?? Aper qez Mot Jam@ Qanisna ??

[Sassun]

Sip jan ?? Aper qez Mot Jam@ Qanisna ??

loool

 

Սիփանը չի կարող բաժանուել Ֆորիւմից:

[vahan79]

Armenian musulmans are the last refuge of this ailing and dying race. Woe is us.

 

Actually, it's "woe are we."

[vahan79]

Well, for a religion to be so vague and inconsistent that even its followers have to disagree so often, then I'd say that's a pretty messed up religion!

 

Wait, are you describing Islam or Christianity?

[vahan79]

Those are YOUR quotes above. Tell me which of YOUR quotes are wrong. None of those quotes say "hijab is a choice". They all say Hijab is a requirement.

 

I'd have to agree with Sip on this one, though it might be a miscommunication. I think you are each using the word "choice" differently. When Sassun said "hijab is a woman's choice," it sounded like he meant that a woman can make the choice to not wear hijab and be completely correct in the eyes of Islam. So, this seems to contradict his later statement that "hijab is a requirement."

 

The only logical explanation is that Sassun believes that hijab is a choice, but making that choice has consequences, both when seeking private employment (if employer requires it) and to be "right" with Islam. The problem with this statement is that it is a tautology. Of course, we all have choices; we can choose to believe in Islam or not, for example. But that type of discourse is uninteresting, because it leads us to a circular pattern of reasoning and doesn't bring us any closer to understanding the strengths/flaws in Islam. That is, you can't say "hijab is a woman's choice" in order to imply some sort of liberalness to Islam, but then say, "but it will go against Islam."

 

It's like when a child asks: "may I have one of those candies?" and a parent says "sure! go ahead!" and then after the child eats it saying "now go to your room, you're grounded!"

 

Bottom line: Hijab is a choice for women, but it's a choice that will make them "sinners" under (Sassun's explanation of) Islam. So what use is there in calling it a choice? Does that bring us any closer to understanding misogyny in Islam?

[Sassun]

Actually Vahan, I am not into portraying Islam as "liberal", or in any other of the western politically correct terms.

 

I explicitly made the point that I do not consider religions are about picking and choosing what you like from it. I have also said that I do not believe in something called "non-practicing Muslim". So for me, if a woman wants to identify as Muslim, then she has to be a Muslim and act like one. If she does not want to, then I do not see why she would want to call herself Muslim anyway. She can go and start a new religion based on the stuff she has picked from Islam.

 

At any rate , I have debated this issue with many Muslims , and they have accused me of engaging in "takfiri" rhetoric, namely, calling Muslims unbelievers based on their non-compliance with a certain practice. They argue that once someone says the 2 Shahadas , that person is a Muslim automatically, regardless of whether he or she prays or fasts , and regardless of whether or not she wears the Hijab, etc. I disagree with this.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sassun

[Sip]

Sip jan ?? Aper qez Mot Jam@ Qanisna ??

 

Jam mam chem haskanum

 

Sassun, you still haven't replied. I asked you a very straight forward question. Which of those quotes of yours that I have quotes are wrong? You have said you (and Islam) consider Hijab to be a requirement. So where is the choice part (as far as the Hijab is concerned)? How can one be a "muslim" and not wear a hijab?

 

Come on dude, spill it. You can't claim something is both a choice and a requirement.

 

You know I'm not going to let this go. At least on this point you HAVE to admit you are full of shit.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sip

[Sassun]

Jam mam chem haskanum

 

Sassun, you still haven't replied. I asked you a very straight forward question. Which of those quotes of yours that I have quotes are wrong?

I guess you did not notice my edited reply :

 

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10...st&p=202596

 

and perhaps this could be of help too :

 

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10...st&p=202613

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sassun

[Sip]

No no no no... you have said if she removes the Hijab she is not muslim in your eyes. Where is the choice? If she removes it, she is not muslim in your eyes. Where is the choice? If she removes it, she is not muslim in your eyes ... WHERE is the choice?

[Sip]

Ssssun, from your post you just linked:

 

I explicitly made the point that I do not consider religions are about picking and choosing what you like from it.

 

Where is teh choice?

[Sassun]

Jam mam chem haskanum

 

Sassun, you still haven't replied. I asked you a very straight forward question. Which of those quotes of yours that I have quotes are wrong? You have said you (and Islam) consider Hijab to be a requirement. So where is the choice part (as far as the Hijab is concerned)? How can one be a "muslim" and not wear a hijab?

 

Come on dude, spill it. You can't claim something is both a choice and a requirement.

 

You know I'm not going to let this go. At least on this point you HAVE to admit you are full of shit.

Islam does not force Hijab on women. Women are free not to wear Hijab.

In other words, someone who is born Muslim (i.e. Muslim on paper) can choose not to wear Hijab.

And I reserve my right not to consider her a Muslim. Why do you want to force me to accept her as Muslim ? She has made her choice. She had a choice. Islam allowed her that choice.

[Sip]

And I reserve my right not to consider her a Muslim. Why do you want to force me to accept her as Muslim ? She has made her choice. She had a choice. Islam allowed her that choice.

 

No I am not messing with your right to consider her anything. I want you to be honest and say it. You do NOT consider her a muslim if she doesn't wear Hijab. You do NOT consider that she has a choice if she wants to be a muslim.

 

Come on now, we got there before, you can get there again, you can do it ... say it.

[DominO123]

And that's not a case of being brain-washed?

 

No woman - if she is educated and fully understands human rights - will agree that wearing the Hijab is a MUST. Then again, no woman or man - fully educated and understanding of human rights - ever agrees to organized religion.

 

The thing is that there are well educated people who do adhere to an organized religion. Like I said, anyone can adhere, it is none of my business if it is not somewhere I own. And I own partly public places as much as others. They can not view this as a prejudice, because I place atheism in the same bag. And if you remember correctly we've debated about that too.

 

Any religion on the other hand should not discriminate. If a man beat his wife, no matter private or public, and if his religion is saying this. Hell his religion, the judiciary system should take the charge to fix the problem. Human rights, public laws are collective rights and are of higher order, I don't understand why this point does not get accross.

[Sassun]

No I am not messing with your right to consider her anything. I want you to be honest and say it. You do NOT consider her a muslim if she doesn't wear Hijab. You do NOT consider that she has a choice if she wants to be a muslim.

If she wants to be Muslim she has to abide by the rules set forth by Islam. However, she , as a Muslim on paper , has the choice not to do so. Then she becomes a murtadd (apostate ). where do you see a problem here ?

 

i must add , as i said before , the vast majority of Muslims do not think in such exclusivist terms , though they believe women should wear the Hijab , they just don't belive that if she doesn't wear it, she ceases to be Muslim.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sassun

[Sip]

If she wants to be Muslim she has to abide by the rules set forth by Islam. However, she , as a Muslim on paper , has the choice not to do so. Then she becomes a murtadd (apostate ). where do you see a problem here ?

 

That is the worst way someone has ever admitted there are full of shit. But good enough. At least you admitted it again.

 

Sassun, I think you have a lot of soul searching to do. Your thinking is so confused and warped, that it is impossible to have any meaningful dialog with you. I really suggest you spend some time and analyze what it is you really believe. It's ok to be confused. I will not hold this against you. But I hope you realize it and spend some considerable amount of time figureing things out. If you believe in Islam, then fine. But at least be honest with yourself and others in what exactly it is you believe.

 

This has been a perfect example. It is obvious you do not consider anyone who chooses to not wear a hijab a "real" (non paper) muslim. But you keep trying to fluff it up and say things like "oh but she has a choice" ...

 

This is why people don't like you. This is why people will push you away. When you say 2 faced things. When you are not completely honest and when you try to somehow make yourself seem different than what you really are.

 

Anyway, I hope this has been a learning experience for you. If not, I hope ONE day you will realize what just went on here.

[Sassun]

Sipan, you are acting like the witness , the lawyer and the judge. Who said I admitted anything , except in your mind ?

 

Where do you see me say "2-faced" and make myself seem different than what i am ? i clearly stand behind what i believe in , that is , that a woman who does not wear the Hijab is not Muslim . i said this clearly. where is the 2-facedness you accused me of ?

 

anyway , doesn't matter. whatever.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sassun

[vahan79]

That is the worst way someone has ever admitted there are full of shit. But good enough. At least you admitted it again.

 

Sassun, I think you have a lot of soul searching to do. Your thinking is so confused and warped, that it is impossible to have any meaningful dialog with you. I really suggest you spend some time and analyze what it is you really believe. It's ok to be confused. I will not hold this against you. But I hope you realize it and spend some considerable amount of time figureing things out. If you believe in Islam, then fine. But at least be honest with yourself and others in what exactly it is you believe.

 

This has been a perfect example. It is obvious you do not consider anyone who chooses to not wear a hijab a "real" (non paper) muslim. But you keep trying to fluff it up and say things like "oh but she has a choice" ...

 

This is why people don't like you. This is why people will push you away. When you say 2 faced things. When you are not completely honest and when you try to somehow make yourself seem different than what you really are.

 

Anyway, I hope this has been a learning experience for you. If not, I hope ONE day you will realize what just went on here.

 

To be fair, English is not his native or even most used language (remember, he is Armenian living in Lebanon). So we have to give him some leeway with things.

 

I also don't think you two are disagreeing; I think you both know where Sassun stands on this issue. Sip, you can move on from there and make your broader point, if any (that a religion that requires hijab is anti-woman, etc.). I think when Sassun says that it does not FORCE hijab, he really means that his government doesn't force hijab. I agree with you, Sip, though, that saying the religion doesn't "force" it but then saying that if you don't do it you are "out" of the religion, is self-contradictory.

 

Lastly, I think we are also up against a problem of cultural Muslims (on paper) and practicing/devout Muslims. This line is even more blurred with Jews. Jews that don't abide by the rules of Judaism are still considered "Jews" because Jewish is almost an ethnicity. Though this is not the case with Islam, most religions develop their own subcultures (for e.g., the Catholic subculture exists even for those that are non-practicing and would identify as Catholic).

[Sip]

To be fair, English is not his native or even most used language (remember, he is Armenian living in Lebanon). So we have to give him some leeway with things. ... I think when Sassun says that it does not FORCE hijab, he really means that his government doesn't force hijab.

 

Vahan, I do understand English is not his first language but I agree with you that I should try to be more clear. However, with him, it has been the case where he claims certain things about his religion and says non Arabic speakers and those who haven't read the Quran do not understand. Well, there are certain things I do understand very well (like the Hijab not being a choice in Islam) and when he tries to say things like "Oh in Islam, Hijab is a choice", I get curious to try to see where he is getting this info from ... is he saying it because of a language problem, is he saying it to glorify Islam to more than just the basics (which does NOT allow for such more modern types of personal freedoms), or is he simply confused.

 

After these long discussions, I don't think the language problem is the case. He has made a number of grand claims about Islam than when you really dig down and grill him with detailed questions, you will realize are not at all what he claims.

 

I don't have the energy nor the desire to do it .. but I am hoping someone will pull out his real views on how real Islam views women (not what he might say in a fluffy post).

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sip

[vahan79]

Sipan, you are acting like the witness , the lawyer and the judge. Who said I admitted anything , except in your mind ?

 

Where do you see me say "2-faced" and make myself seem different than what i am ? i clearly stand behind what i believe in , that is , that a woman who does not wear the Hijab is not Muslim . i said this clearly. where is the 2-facedness you accused me of ?

 

anyway , doesn't matter. whatever.

 

Sassun, the problem is simple. Let me give you an example. What if I said: "A woman has a choice whether or not to jump in front of a speeding bus." What kind of choice is this if it means certain death? Yes, it's true, she has this choice, but what do we get from your calling it a "choice"?

 

The problem is that the word "choice" usually implies the ability to make a decision without hideous reprocussions; that is, to decide one way or the other, where both alternatives are valid. If one of the alternatives is invalid, only an idiot (or a sinner, in the case of hijab) would choose that one.

 

Moreover, what are you trying to get across by calling it a "choice." If it's just the "choice" as you have defined "choice" (basically, as physically possible and within the providence of free will), then you have no argument; what you are saying is obvious and meaningless. Get it?

[Sassun]

I agree with you, Sip, though, that saying the religion doesn't "force" it but then saying that if you don't do it you are "out" of the religion, is self-contradictory.

How is it self-contradictory , unless you view religion as a "buffet" to use my new favorite word.

i do not know why anyone would call himself Muslim if they do not practice what is in the Qur'an ?? and if according to the Qur'an they are not to be considered Muslim, then how does that mean that Islam does not give people the choice not to wear Hijab ?