What Is The Attraction To Moslem Men?

[Sassun]

What kind of choice is this if it means certain death? Yes, it's true, she has this choice, but what do we get from your calling it a "choice"?

Why does it have to mean "certain death" ? A woman not wearing the Hijab will not be killed. What are you basing your info on ?

[Sassun]

He has made a number of grand claims about Islam than when you really dig down and grill him with detailed questions, you will realize are not at all what he claims.

such as ?

 

[DominO123]

Why does it have to mean "certain death" ? A woman not wearing the Hijab will not be killed. What are you basing your info on ?

 

You are playing the deaf.

[vahan79]

Vahan, I do understand English is not his first language but I agree with you that I should try to be more clear. However, with him, it has been the case where he claims certain things about his religion and says non Arabic speakers and those who haven't read the Quran do not understand. Well, there are certain things I do understand very well (like the Hijab not being a choice in Islam) and when he tries to say things like "Oh in Islam, Hijab is a choice", I get curious to try to see where he is getting this info from ... is he saying it because of a language problem, is he saying it to glorify Islam to more than just the basics (which does NOT allow for such more modern types of personal freedoms), or is he simply confused.

 

After these long discussions, I don't think the language problem is the case. He has made a number of grand claims about Islam than when you really dig down and grill him with detailed questions, you will realize are not at all what he claims.

 

I don't have the energy nor the desire to do it .. but I am hoping someone will pull out his real views on how real Islam views women (not what he might say in a fluffy post).

 

I'm with you, brother.

 

Sorry (to both of you) for trying to play "mediator"...it's just that I think you both contribute a lot and I like to really understand what you both are talking about...

 

This kind of debate is fun...

[Sassun]

You are playing the deaf.

I did not get your point....

 

be more descriptive pls.

[DominO123]

I did not get your point....

 

be more descriptive pls.

 

You perfectly understood his point. More descriptive?

[DominO123]

I'm with you, brother.

 

Sorry (to both of you) for trying to play "mediator"...it's just that I think you both contribute a lot and I like to really understand what you both are talking about...

 

This kind of debate is fun...

 

We used to have many such debates in the past.

[Sassun]

You perfectly understood his point. More descriptive?

I understood his point and replied. I did not understand your point about being deaf.

[DominO123]

I understood his point and replied. I did not understand your point about being deaf.

 

What he was saying is that it was not really a choice and gave that example. You have the choice to wear the Hijab, but if you don't you are not really a Muslim.

[vahan79]

How is it self-contradictory , unless you view religion as a "buffet" to use my new favorite word.

i do not know why anyone would call himself Muslim if they do not practice what is in the Qur'an ?? and if according to the Qur'an they are not to be considered Muslim, then how does that mean that Islam does not give people the choice not to wear Hijab ?

 

Okay, I don't know how to make this any clearer. Let's try this. If a woman doesn't wear hijab, she is exercising her "choice" not to do so. Correct. But, this choice is not given to her by Islam as you say ("how does that mean that Islam does not give people the choice not to wear Hijab?"), it is given to her by her own free will and by the government's recognition of that free will (i.e., her rights). Once she makes that choice, according to you, she is no longer Muslim, i.e., no longer part of Islam. Thus, Islam isn't doing anything to give her anything; it is forbidding her from doing it.

 

I have the choice as to whether or not I eat pork. If I decide to eat pork, I know that it is forbidden (haram) by Islam. Islam does not "give" me "the choice" to eat pork or not. That choice is mine, irrespective of Islam. Islam forbids it. No, not physically or by force (how could it, it's a religion, not a person or army or government???). BUT, by KICKING ME OUT.

 

Under your definition of choice in this context, you are saying that as long as Islam doesn't try to actively stop people from doing something, it is giving them choice. The only time Islam can do anything to stop anyone is when it is imposed by the government, in which case, it is the government doing it and not the religion.

 

Ah, I don't know if this is getting clearer or more muddied....

[Sassun]

What he was saying is that it was not really a choice and gave that example. You have the choice to wear the Hijab, but if you don't you are not really a Muslim.

Thank you for admitting that Islam gives on-paper Muslims the choice to wear or not to wear the Hijab. WHen they make that choice, then it is up to people to determine the outcome. The choice is there.

 

Anyway , here's an article translated to English by Ayatollah Mohammed Hossein Fadlallah , on the Hijab :

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/WomenFamily/hajI.htm

 

[Sassun]

it is given to her by her own free will and by the government's recognition of that free will (i.e., her rights).

Do you mean in Islamic societies ? In Lebanon personal status law is governed by sects not secular authorities.

 

yeah it is clearer now what you are trying to say.. but see above point... ?

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sassun

[DominO123]

Thank you for admitting that Islam gives on-paper Muslims the choice to wear or not to wear the Hijab. WHen they make that choice, then it is up to people to determine the outcome. The choice is there.

 

Anyway , here's an article translated to English by Ayatollah Mohammed Hossein Fadlallah , on the Hijab :

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/WomenFamily/hajI.htm

 

Oh boy, I give up.

[Sassun]

Vahan,

ok , you have a point . but if you look at it in reverse , if this is what Islam stipulates , and she wants to be Muslim , then why on earth would she not wear a Hijab ?

[Yervant1]

Vahan,

ok , you have a point . but if you look at it in reverse , if this is what Islam stipulates , and she wants to be Muslim , then why on earth would she not wear a Hijab ?

Sassun why is it so difficult to say that if you don't wear hijab than you are not a Muslim, if so there is no choice. Yes you have a choice as a person but not as Muslim.

[Sassun]

Sassun why is it so difficult to say that if you don't wear hijab than you are not a Muslim, if so there is no choice. Yes you have a choice as a person but not as Muslim.

Because of the last 3 words of your sentence, Yervant , which i have highlighted .

 

Prior to making the choice to remove the Hijab , she was Muslim. Both on paper and considered as such too. Thus, as a Muslim, she had that choice? She could make that choice? As a Muslim. and yes, as a human being. But also as a Muslim. No ?

[Sassun]

Hmm.. anyway , i guess i got what you are trying to say.. ok, you have a point. we are saying different things , i think ... what i mean by choice is different than what you are talking about, ithink. Edited June 13, 2007 by Sassun

[Yervant1]

Hmm.. anyway , i guess i got what you are trying to say.. ok, you have a point. we are saying different things , i think ... what i mean by choice is different than what you are talking about, ithink.

You guessed it right this is exactly what Sip and Vahan was saying too, I think it's more clear cut than choice issue. It can only be a choice if the person wears it or not still considered a Muslim.

[Sassun]

You guessed it right this is exactly what Sip and Vahan was saying too, I think it's more clear cut than choice issue. It can only be a choice if the person wears it or not still considered a Muslim.

In that case , i already pointed out that i am a minority 'current'/'trend' , when the majority do not consider non-veiled Muslim women to be non-Muslims / apostates.

 

Problem solved?

[Anonymouse]

Wow !! So you can cite a few verses , based on some Jihadwatch type website probably , when in fact you do not even know Arabic and cannot read the original but only a translation . FYI , 2:282 does not say anything about the testimony of women being half that of the testimony of man; and 4:3 does not say anything about 'slave girls'. And as for the Hadith about the beating, name the source. not all Hadiths are accurate and many have been proven to be deliberate manipulations.

 

 

1. None of what I have is from any anti-Muslim site.

 

2. 2:282 states "Get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her." Two women for one man? If she errs to correct her? I don't know what sort of hashish you've been smoking with your Assassin cousins, but that doesn't smack of anything less than a testament to how women's testimony is not as credible.

 

3. 4:3 states "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one, or a captive that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." In addition, it encourages polygamy.

 

4. I also notice you are silent on the position of a son's inheritance must be twice that of a daughter.

 

5. The story of the wife who was beaten and told Aishah, which then Muhammed proceeded to ignore and not make a big deal is a testament to how Islam views women. Now your only rebuttal is whether it's accurate? And suppose it is? What then?

 

Muhammed Ibn Ismaiel Al-Bukhari, Sahih al-Bukhari: The Translator of the Meanings, translated by Muhammad M. Khan, Darussalam, 1997, vol. 7, book 77, no. 5825

 

6. In conjunction to the validity or invalidity of a woman's testimony, what do you have to say to the fact of Islam's requirement of four witnesses? Consequently, under Sharia, men can rape at will and walk off scot free as long as there are no four witnesses who saw the act. What's even funnier about this is if a woman accuses a man of rape, she may indirectly end up incriminating herself if the required four witnesses cannot be found.

 

So if Islam is responsible for all these horrible things in Pakistan, what then explains the things that non-Muslims do ? Oh sorry, these are "individual" behaviors , like for example the slavery (oh sorry that was in the past ) , like for example the mass murder supported and funded by USA in my part of the world (oh sorry that is part of foreign policy , and yeah yeah i get it , you do not agree with it ), and so on and so forth.

 

What has occurred in American foreign policy is not just a result of foreign policy itself, it is a result of a hijacking of the American republic, the manipulation and distortion of the Constitution by rogue judges and the judicial system. It is fed by a variety of factors such as hubris and the allure of power post-WWII, the oil economy that fuels the world and which is pegged to the dollar, including the help of the Bretton Woods system, and the terrorist State of Israel.

 

You are trying to get out of these wrongdoings committed by non-Muslims by either dismissing any mass or cultural reasons/causes and attributing any manifestations of mass-scale wrongdoing to Islam while heaping praises on 'western secularism' (which according to your logic , is responsible for America's domestic immorality and its attitudes towards Arabs & Muslims), or by saying you simply do not agree with these actions. Whether you agree or disagree is another issue altogether , and has no bearing on the causes of these actions.

 

Musulman, read carefully. No one has dismissed wrongdoings committed by non-Muslims, certainly not America. The core ideas of liberalism in the West, are anything but what you see these governments doing. In fact, it is quite the opposite, it recognizes the inviolable nature of the individual and private property, and thereby seeks to curtail and keep government as small as possible because it recognizes the eternal allure of power which all governments pose. That is why this Constitution was the best because it allowed for the greatest amount of checks and balances to curtail government power, which is what has been one of the defining factors in how America has changed from a republic, to an empire.

[Sassun]

1. Show me the site and I will judge?

 

2. How does that entail that 1 man's testimony is "worth" that of 2 women ? There are reasons for why it is 1 vs 2, and that has nothing to do with any sort of inferiority that you are trying to pass it off as. Quit waving your flag of dogmatic egalitarianism, and go and spend your time on better things, such as learning for once what Islam is actually about rather than relying on mistranslations and misrepresentations.

 

3. There is no such word or expression in that verse, in Arabic, that refers to or might be interpreted as "slave girl" or captive.

 

4. I was not silent on that, I already addressed it, and also showed that there are other circumstances where the girl gets more than the boy, and so your entire hypothesis that it looks down upon women , goes down the drain.

 

5. There is no such thing in Bukhari. But keep on relying on Daniel Pipes & co.

 

Suppose it is? It is not. Islam is not about "ifs" or "suppose"s.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sassun

[Anonymouse]

1. Show me the site and I will judge?

 

2. How does that entail that 1 man's testimony is "worth" that of 2 women ? There are reasons for why it is 1 vs 2, and that has nothing to do with any sort of inferiority that you are trying to pass it off as. Quit waving your flag of dogmatic egalitarianism, and go and spend your time on better things, such as learning for once what Islam is actually about rather than relying on mistranslations and misrepresentations.

 

It's amusing that you called me an egalitarian. My dear Musulman, I am as far beyond egalitarians as they are beyond me, I am a realist. However, that does not mean I disrespect character and content, which is what Islam does. The only thing I know is that in jurisprudence here in the infidel West, testimony is all testimony, and it's all treated the same, regardless of whether they are women or men. This has nothing to do with egalitarianism, in fact, it has everything to do with learning the most one can about a certain case, and fact-finding.

 

3. There is no such word or expression in that verse, in Arabic, that refers to or might be interpreted as "slave girl" or captive.

 

 

As is expected, you deny it with the typical "There is no such thing in Arabic that says that/ The Arabic translation is different" (Sip I'm looking your way).

 

4. I was not silent on that, I already addressed it, and also showed that there are other circumstances where the girl gets more than the boy, and so your entire hypothesis that it looks down upon women , goes down the drain.

 

I am unaware of situations where women will get more than the man, but will you objectively say which is the more predominant view? Or, will you in typical apologetic fashion, skid around it?

 

5. There is no such thing in Bukhari. But keep on relying on Daniel Pipes & co.

 

Suppose it is? It is not. Islam is not about "ifs" or "suppose"s.

 

You do not have to like it, but that is the way it goes. The obvious avoidance of this is a testament to your desperation. All the points that have been raised and hurled against you have seen nothing but dismissals with nothing more than a statement of "That is not what says" or "It's not like that in Arabic".

 

And what is this curious allure of shitty treatment of women in Islamic countries and Islam? Politically correct apologists for Islam would have one believe that it is just cultural, and not religious, but you can begin to get an idea. In Afghanistan and Bangladesh, more than half of all teenage girls are married. The Quran has spoken that child marriages are okay, and this has been verified by Mr. Khomeini himself. With early marriage comes domestic violence and in Egypt, 29& of teens married were beaten by their husbands, and of those 41% had their beatings while pregnant. There is a similar pattern in Jordan.

 

In Saudi Arabia there was an incident of fifteen school girls who died in a fire. Apparently, the religious police, the muttawa, wouldn't let the girls out because they had apparently taken off all their concealing clothing because of the fire, and they preferred the girls' death to the transgression of Islamic law.

 

Musulman, read carefully. I'm no feminist and I abhor feminism about as much as I abhor your religion. However, that doesn't mean I will mistreat women. And when I think of my cousins or mother and aunts, if they had to endure the shit that your religion preaches and requires, well, then that's no religion at all in my "buffet" mind.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Anonymouse

[Sassun]

Are you for real ?

 

You cite "translations" of verses, and when I point out that they are mistranslations , you claim I have no point to make and am skidding around the issue ? What are you smoking ?

 

This is the Arabic text of 4:3 , get someone who speaks Arabic to translate it for you !

وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تُقْسِطُواْ فِي الْيَتَامَى فَانكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاء مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَعُولُواْ

 

And ask him to point out which word is th word for "slave girl" or "captive" !!!!

 

And as for the inheritance, there is not one predominant view. It is different in each and every case.

 

You present numbers , and do not cite the source. What are your sources?

 

Where did Khomeini "ok" child marriage ?

 

You are uttering utter b.s., with no proof whatsoever. Your references to Bernard Lewis, Bat Ye'or , are among other things, a good testimony to your factual bankruptcy. And now you talk to me about non-existent things in Bukhari and want me to "suppose" that it exists, and to judge Islam according to that ?????? Make more sense please !

Edited June 13, 2007 by Sassun

[Sassun]

Here's another factoid .

 

In USA every 90 seconds a woman is raped.

Blame Islam !

[Sip]

Sassun, how often is a wife beaten or raped by her husband in Iran? Do you know? Are those kinds of statistics even available?