Forced Westernization

[Harut]

I'm having very strong, but obscure thoughts about this issue, and having hard time putting in on paper.

But I'd like to hear your take on the issue.... about this forceful, be that military or otherwise, westernization of political, economic, and social systems around the world. What result do they have? Does it actually produce healthy new systems, or new degenerate ones?

So on and so forth...

Thank you

[Aaron]

Hi Harut

 

I could answer most of your questions since I just finished a book from a political scientist named Samuel Huntington; "The clash of civilizations and the remaking of world order", but I'm in a rush and I advice you to have a look at the book. It has a chapter devoted exactly to the issue that interrests you, he makes a clear distinction between westernization and modernization, analyses countries that have tried one or the other or even both, ex: Turkey tried westernization in the 20s cutting all links with its islamic past, the ottoman empire and adopting new values (at least in form), the asian nations are more inclined towards modernization since they are very wary of preserving their traditions and culture, etc.

 

The book was a bestseller (in 97 I think) you should therefore have no trouble finding it in any library. If your assignment is due soon, you shouldn't worry the chapter isn't long and fun to read.

 

have a good day

A.

[Harut]

Thanks for the info, Aaron. I'll check out the book you suggested.

 

I've done my own thinking and observations around this issue. I'm having a hard time presenting them, but I'll give bits and pieces in forms of questions.

 

For example, how do you take a piece of culture, such as the issue of women's rights, which has been under development for over a century, through judicial, civil, and all kinds of other medias, and present it to, let's say Afghans or Saudis, and say, here take this, we've found out that this is the right thing, implement it in a few years?

 

BTW, my assignment is to educate myself. So I have a lifetime to send on this.

[nairi]

I don't know. I kind of like the idea of being able to use toilet paper, among other things.

[Stormig]

For example, how do you take a piece of culture, such as the issue of women's rights, which has been under development for over a century, through judicial, civil, and all kinds of other medias, and present it to, let's say Afghans or Saudis, and say, here take this, we've found out that this is the right thing, implement it in a few years?

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I think that the way to go is securing basic human rights, equality, a decent civil code, all that. And I think it's best to look at how systems upgrade to this, not being spoon-fed it like Afghans or Saudis. Afghanis went downhill and not by popular vote; however, removing those in charge hasn't meant things will get back to where they were if what we read [not off mainstream media] is anything to go by. Then there's Iraq - the situation doesn't smell too royal to me. Saudis have no-one to tell them what to do. Countries that change from within, like those of the West, shall be better off, unless, again, crippled by some regime change. An example of a country changing from within, today, would be Nepal, the only Hindu kingdom, where women inherit not from their parents/family but their husband - and things like this are in the process of changing. I gave the example of Nepal simply because I recently attended a talk about it.

[Sasun]

Nearly everything is bad when forced, and that definitely includes westerinzation. Actually in political science one of the forms of imperialism is the coerced westernization which often appears to be a good thing. But it creates a Western influence and is mainly beneficial for the West. In particular, I don't think anyone is unaware of nearly complete spread of the American flavor of western values which sometimes get degenerated and even more harmful than originally.

[Anonymouse]

I'm having very strong, but obscure thoughts about this issue, and having hard time putting in on paper.

But I'd like to hear your take on the issue.... about this forceful, be that military or otherwise, westernization of political, economic, and social systems around the world. What result do they have? Does it actually produce healthy new systems, or new degenerate ones?

So on and so forth...

Thank you

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For long have I heard the proponents of anti-Western civilization chide about the so-called 'harmful effects' of Western civilization.

 

You bring up the idea of "forced" Westernization and then mention two opposing concepts "military" or "otherwise". Since military Westernization is the political westernization because to involve military is to involve war, and since war is politics by another means, and since politics is ipso facto coercive, this would be forceful Westernization.

 

However, proponents of the anti-Westernization crowd don't just stop there. They go even further and attack the "economic Westernization" as somehow being "forceful". Since human action is either coercive or voluntary, trade is the only human action that is voluntary, because both parties benefit from the transaction. When Western countries trade with other countries they are not "forcing" people to accept their standards. No one forces millions of immigrants to immigrate to the West. No one forces people across the world to listen to Western music, to buy Western products or watch Western movies or dress in Western style and clothes.

 

But, the more socialistic among us have always been of the persuasion of the politics of envy and somehow peopel are not really making choices because we are influenced by society, not by our own mind and will. In other words we don't really choose but we have others choose for us, and this is what they argue is what is responsible for the Westernization of the other world. So if it cannot be made to prove it is overt, it is somehow portrayed as being "covert".

 

As far as the gutter trash that Samuel Huntington regurgitated from his belly, it is utter bs of the nth degree and the same kind of literature neo-cons have relied on in their "crusade" to launch another endless war.

[Stormig]

Nearly everything is bad when forced, and that definitely includes westerinzation. Actually in political science one of the forms of imperialism is the coerced westernization which often appears to be a good thing. But it creates a Western influence and is mainly beneficial for the West. In particular, I don't think anyone is unaware of nearly complete spread of the American flavor of western values which sometimes get degenerated and even more harmful than originally.

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In fact, "forced" Westernisation can give rise to resentment and reactionism. Best example: the Shah's "reforms" in Iran and what it all led to.

[Anonymouse]

In fact, "forced" Westernisation can give rise to resentment and reactionism. Best example: the Shah's "reforms" in Iran and what it all led to.

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Or Iraq.

[Boghos]

Hello Mouse,

 

Huntington is the archetypical proponent of these West-east, Islam-Christianity and son on thesis under this clash of civilizations nonsense. He reduces complex phenomenae to his distorted perception of what drives the world.

 

I must again agree with you on this whole "Westernization threat" or whatever other idiotic politically correct terms people may come up with. Nairi gave a very succinct and yet precise answer about the adoption of TP as symptomatic of the spread of this dangerous thing called western influence. Bottom line: reactionaies will always find an explanation for their own failures and insecurities.

 

The excpetion I make is to "military westernization", euphemism for imperialism with mostly negative results and externalities.

[Stormig]

Or Iraq.

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Too early to say much at the moment as there is no stability there, unless you have another period on your mind.

[Siamanto]

I think that the way to go is securing basic human rights, equality, a decent civil code, all that.

And I think it's best to look at how systems upgrade to this, not being spoon-fed it like Afghans or Saudis.

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Considering who I am and how I express myself, it is very likely that if living in SOME of those countries - i.e. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia -

I'll either end up in prison or in a hospital! My mindset is totally foreign to theirs, but that should not give the right to "upgrade???" - or

consider "upgrading" - their Value System or Civil Code! "Upgrade!" Why isn't that a "downgrade???"

The colonialists aimed at "upgrading" the "savage???" Africans in the name of "God," we want to "upgrade" other Cultures in the name of

"Democracy" and "Human Rights!"

With all due respect, that is pure "Anglo-Saxon" Mentality!

As long as they do not interfere in our lives, they are entitled to do as they please: it's simply a different Social Contract!

"Differences can be additive." (Saint-Exupery??)

 

 

 

 

Nearly everything is bad when forced, and that definitely includes westerinzation.

Yes! Cultures and Value Systems CANNOT be stable or stabilizing - in the long term - when "spoon-fed" or imposed!

[Sasun]

I don't know. I kind of like the idea of being able to use toilet paper, among other things.

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And if you didn't, I would hardly want to force you to do so

 

P.S. I didn't know that toilet paper exists due to the grace of the West. I thought paper was an oriental invention.

[Siamanto]

Another Saint-Exupery quote that may apply!

"What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well."

 

Look for the well when thirsty in the desert, instead of importing bottled Evian!

[Sasun]

Actually, use of toilet paper is merely a matter of hygiene, I don't think it is particularly western or eastern.

[Sasun]

Yes! Cultures and Value Systems CANNOT be stable or stabilizing - in the long term - when "spoon-fed" or imposed!

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I agree, and I also believe that learning from other cultures and traditions can be very useful and healthy. In that sense the world would be a much better place if the East and West could learn from each other, but only if such learning was voluntary rather than imposed by foreing governments directly or through a local puppet government.

[Stormig]

Siamanto, I used "upgrade" as in progress and I used it in the same sentence with words connoting forcefullness. Please examine the relationship and reconsider how you arrived at my being a proponent of the sort of mentality that "civilised the African savage."

[Anonymouse]

Too early to say much at the moment as there is no stability there, unless you have another period on your mind.

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It's not too early. The exact effects of forcing Westernization, i.e. "democracy", have produced deleterious results for the occupiers, pitted them in an endless war from which the only solution is withdrawal and humiliation, not to mention dire political and economic ramifications for both parties.

[Siamanto]

I agree, and I also believe that learning from other cultures and traditions can be very useful and healthy. In that sense the world would be a much better place if the East and West could learn from each other

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Yes! That is exactly what Saint-Exupery meant by: "Differences can be additive."

 

 

 

Actually, use of toilet paper is merely a matter of hygiene, I don't think it is particularly western or eastern.

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It seems that Native Americans found that Europeans lacked basic Hygiene!

 

 

 

 

Siamanto, I used "upgrade" as in progress and I used it in the same sentence with words connoting forcefullness.

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Stormig,

I understand that "upgrade" is only a word and may not essential to the point you made. Yes, I did understand it as in "progress!" My point was that it MAY seem as "progress" - a "positive" connotation - to us, but MAY have "negative" connotations to others!

 

 

 

Please examine the relationship and reconsider how you arrived at my being a proponent of the sort of mentality that "civilised the African savage."

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I apologize for the confusion! I DID NOT mean that your argument suggests that you are a "proponent of the sort of mentality that 'civilised the African savage.'" Not at all!

I was simply warning of the dangers of bringing "civilization and freedom???" to Cultures that we can HARDLY understand and that seems as dry, rough and uncultured as a desert!

Please allow me to repeat myself!

Another Saint-Exupery quote that may apply!

"What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well."

 

Look for the well when thirsty in the desert, instead of importing bottled Evian! smile.gif

[Stormig]

It's not too early. The exact effects of forcing Westernization, i.e. "democracy", have produced deleterious results for the occupiers, pitted them in an endless war from which the only solution is withdrawal and humiliation, not to mention dire political and economic ramifications for both parties.

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It IS too early to know how this will play out in the next decade or two.

[Stormig]

Stormig,

I understand that "upgrade" is only a word and may not essential to the point you made. Yes, I did understand it as in "progress!" My point was that it MAY seem as "progress" - a "positive" connotation - to us, but MAY have "negative" connotations to others!

I apologize for the confusion! I DID NOT  mean that your argument suggests that you are a "proponent of the sort of mentality that 'civilised the African savage.'" Not at all!

I  was simply warning of the dangers of  bringing "civilization and freedom???" to Cultures that we can HARDLY understand and that seems as dry, rough and uncultured as a desert!

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Maybe it is time people laid off the idea that encouraging human rights, equality, etc., in such countries is akin to dressing Africans in 19th century European gear.

[Anonymouse]

It IS too early to know how this will play out in the next decade or two.

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We don't need a decade or two to see the effects of a people resisting "Westernization" in the form of "democracy". It's already in play.

[Stormig]

We don't need a decade or two to see the effects of a people resisting "Westernization" in the form of "democracy". It's already in play.

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It is a process, not a day in the life of a typical Amerikanski snert.

[Anonymouse]

It is a process, not a day in the life of a typical Amerikanski snert.

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Of course it's a process, what else did you want it to be? And by the process that has already unfurled, forcing Westernization has resulted in chaos.

[Stormig]

And it's going to be chaos and bad bad Westernisation ever after. Like it was in Iran even after the Islamic revolution.