Turkey's Accession To Eu

[Armat]

That's what you get for listening to public radio! What next - will they tell you the world is actually flat and the moon is made of cheese.

Firstly there is massive unemployment all over Europe - tens of millions. Secondly there will be millions more unemployed once the current economically unsustainable retirement age is raised. Thirdly, of course the type of workers that Europe needs more than any other are millions of peasants and  part-time labourers whose only expertise is at sheep shagging.

That was one of the commentaries exact point, which you seemed repelled but in agreement nevertheless. I friendly suggest you read carefully your reply and my post specially paragraphs in quotes.

Regards

[Siamanto]

[The following is an automatic translation. Siamanto.]

 

Villiers: "we all are French Armenians"

 

Agence France Presses December 15 2004 Wednesday

 

PARIS 15 déc 2004 -- the president of the Movement for France

(MPF) Philippe de Villiers stated Wednesday that "we all are of the

Armenians of France" at the time of a meeting organized in Paris

against the entry of Turkey in Europe.

 

"We all are of the Armenians, there is in France a precise law which

punishes the negationism, a law right, but in Turkey there is a law

which protects the negationism", it declared in reference to the

refusal of Turkey to recognize the genocide of the Armenians at the

beginning of the XXème century.

 

Being ironical about the explanations of the Foreign Minister Michel

Barnier who declared that it did not have truly marked the term of

"genocide" but that of "tragedy", Mr. de Villiers declared: "one lay

down in front of Turkey, shame in France to make similar things, me I

ask for the resignation of this Mr. Barnier".

 

Philippe de Villiers, who expressed himself in front of nearly 700

people - a thousand according to organizers' -, with a part of the

assistance upright for lack of place, also attacked Jacques Chirac, who

expressed themselves on TF1 at the same time, on the Turkish question.

 

"From or this Eastern tropism comes? It exchanged the calf's head

against the Turkish head ", it declared. "If it does not hold up the

veto, it is us who will hold up it with the first referendum which

passes", it added. "the joker it is the referendum", it specified.

 

[Original]

 

Villiers: "nous sommes tous des Arméniens de France"

 

Agence France Presse

15 décembre 2004 mercredi

 

PARIS 15 déc 2004 -- Le président du Mouvement pour la France (MPF)

Philippe de Villiers a déclaré mercredi que "nous sommes tous des

Arméniens de France" lors d'un meeting organisé à Paris contre l'entrée

de la Turquie en Europe.

 

"Nous sommes tous des Arméniens, il y a en France une loi précise qui

punit le négationisme, une loi juste, mais en Turquie il y a une loi

qui protège le négationisme", a-t-il déclaré en référence au refus de

la Turquie de reconnaître le génocide des Arméniens au début du XXème

siècle.

 

Ironisant sur les explications du ministre des Affaires Etrangères

Michel Barnier qui a déclaré qu'il n'avait pas véritablement prononcé

le terme de "génocide" mais celui de "tragédie", M. de Villiers a

déclaré: "on s'est couché devant la Turquie, honte à la France de

faire des choses pareilles, moi je demande la démission de ce M.

Barnier".

 

Philippe de Villiers, qui s'exprimait devant près de 700 personnes -

un millier selon les organisateurs-, avec une partie de l'assistance

debout faute de place, a également attaqué Jacques Chirac, qui

s'exprimait sur TF1 au même moment, sur la question turque.

 

"D'ou vient ce tropisme oriental ? Il a troqué la tête de veau contre

la tête de turc", a-t-il déclaré. "S'il ne brandit pas le veto, c'est

nous qui allons le brandir au premier référendum qui passe", a-t-il

ajouté. "Le joker c'est le référendum", a-t-il précisé.

Edited December 22, 2004 by Siamanto

[Stormig]

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EU Hopeful Turkey Eyes Big Bill for Environment

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

ANKARA - Turkey may need to spend up to 60 billion euros ($80 billion) cleaning up its environment to meet European Union standards, officials said on Friday.

EU leaders have agreed to open entry talks with Turkey on Oct. 3, 2005, but the large, relatively poor, country is not expected to join for about a decade, partly because of the scale of its economic problems.

 

"The most optimistic but not very realistic projections speak of a need for investment of 20 billion euros. But this figure could rise to 60 billion euros," a Turkish official told a news briefing, on condition of anonymity.

 

The environment is one of 31 policy areas where Turkey would have to align its laws and standards with those of the EU. It has also proved one of the most problematic areas for the eight ex-communist countries which joined the wealthy bloc in May.

 

In its annual report on Turkey, the European Commission said recently Turkey still had much work to do to improve air and water quality, the treatment of waste and nature conservation.

 

Turkish officials said Ankara would qualify for increased EU funds to help overhaul its economy and public administration, but said the increases were likely to be phased in gradually.

 

"We are not expecting a big leap (in aid) for the next budgetary period 2007-2013," said a second official.

 

Turkey received around 250 million euros in 2004 in so-called pre-accession aid. That figure is expected to double by 2006, but is still small compared to the scale of aid received by other EU candidate countries.

 

Poland, which has a population of 40 million people and joined the EU in May, will have received 15.3 billion euros for the period from 2000 to 2006.

 

Romania, with 22 million people and set to join the EU in 2007, will have received 5.1 billion euros.

 

Turkey, which has 70 million people, is forecast to receive a total 1.7 billion euros for the same period. EU leaders agreed it would not become a full member of the bloc at least until after the end of the 2007-13 budgetary period.

 

 

Story Date: 29/12/2004

 

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© Reuters News Service 2003

 

 

 

 

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[Armen]

Journal of Turkish Weekly

Jan 4 2005

 

Armenian Weekly: Armenian People Support Turkey's EU Bid

 

Agos, Armenian weekly newspaper published in Istanbul, Turkey,

reported that Armenian public strongly supports Turkey's EU

membership.

 

Agos reported in its latest issue that Armenian people in Armenia

welcomed Turkey's success in the December 17 Brussels Summit.

 

However, the paper stressed, it is observed that Armenians living in

France in Diaspora conducted campaigns against Turkey in this

process:

 

`While the summit goes on, an Armenian group of approximately 2300

people have made a demonstration near the EU Council Building in

Brussels. The group, asked the so- called Armenian Genocide to be

recognized by Turkey before full membership talks, and asked EU not

to accept the Turkish membership because Turkey has not shared the

ideal of Europe.'

 

`Foreign Affairs Ministry of Armenia said `If Turkey meets all EU

demands; the full membership of Turkey may also be beneficial for

Armenia and may influence the region positively.' The government of

Armenia argued that Turkey's Armenian border is still closed

unilaterally, and Turkey has placed punishment to the use of the term

`genocide'. Armenian government added that Turkey asserted

unacceptable pre-conditions to normalize the relations with his own

country. Besides, Armenia said `if Turkey listens to the society of

Europe, this will enable to overcome the obstacles and guarantee a

durable stability and development.'

 

In a survey conducted by Armenian Strategic and National Research

Center presided by Former Armenian Foreign Affairs Minister, Raffi

Hovhannesyan, % 64 of 2000 Armenians from many different segments of

the society were in favor of Turkey's accession.

 

Besides, in the frame of this survey, 92 out of 100 experts supported

the accession of Turkey to the EU.'

 

Turkey has two pre-conditions to normalize its relations with

Armenia:

 

1) End Armenian occupation in Azerbaijani territories and do not

attempt to change borders by force,

2) Recognize Turkey's unity and national borders. Do all amendments

that do not recognize Turkey's national borders,

 

Armenian `genocide' allegations are not a pre-condition for Turkey.

However Turkey says a historical and intellectual matter should not

be abused to prevent Turkish-Armenian relations. A Turkish official

said `An EU member Turkey could be a great opportunity for Armenian

Republic'.

 

Armenian forces still occupies about 20 per cent of Azerbaijani

territories and 1 million Azerbaijanis became refugees after the

occupation.

[Nakharar]

Journal of Turkish Weekly

Jan 4 2005

 

Armenian Weekly: Armenian People Support Turkey's EU Bid

 

Agos, Armenian weekly newspaper published in Istanbul, Turkey,

reported that Armenian public strongly supports Turkey's EU

membership.

 

Agos reported in its latest issue that Armenian people in Armenia

welcomed Turkey's success in the December 17 Brussels Summit.

 

 

Yeah right. Bolsahye trash sucking up to their masters.

[phantom]

Yeah right. Bolsahye trash sucking up to their masters.

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Easy there buddy! It's not a good idea to be so divisive. Besides, didn't you hear the most recent info to come out of Bolis is that the Patriarch there publicly spoke some very braves words about the 90th Anniversary of the Genocide. See the California Courier's most recent discussion about this on Groong. Anyway, we should all want Turkey to join the EU after it acknowledges the Genocide and opens its borders. That would be a good thing for Armenia to have a European and presumably less belligerent neighbor, wouldn't it?!.

[DominO123]

Easy there buddy!  It's not a good idea to be so divisive.  Besides, didn't you hear the most recent info to come out of Bolis is that the Patriarch there publicly spoke some very braves words about the 90th Anniversary of the Genocide.  See the California Courier's most recent discussion about this on Groong.  Anyway, we should all want Turkey to join the EU after it acknowledges the Genocide and opens its borders.  That would be a good thing for Armenia to have a European and presumably less belligerent neighbor, wouldn't it?!.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

If there was an answer that would finaly make you decide to post here again, it was certainly this one.

 

BTW Phantom, I have to congradulate you for your way of dealing with denialists, you've become REALLY good at it.

[Nakharar]

Easy there buddy!  It's not a good idea to be so divisive.  Besides, didn't you hear the most recent info to come out of Bolis is that the Patriarch there publicly spoke some very braves words about the 90th Anniversary of the Genocide.  See the California Courier's most recent discussion about this on Groong.  Anyway, we should all want Turkey to join the EU after it acknowledges the Genocide and opens its borders.  That would be a good thing for Armenia to have a European and presumably less belligerent neighbor, wouldn't it?!.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Sorry buddy. When I read the headline by that newspaper I got incensed. I'm not expecting them to rebel against their government but a little assertiveness would have been better. I read the statement by Patriarch Mesrob and I must say I am very impressed. Turkey will never join te EU whether we want to or not because let's face it they are very poor and underdeveloped. We shouldn't put our hope on that.

I'm going to visit Istanbul in February or March. Do you know Naregatsi Comic Cafe? Is it any good? I know that some of names on the menu have references to the Armenian Genocide. Deir Zor salad and such.

[phantom]

If there was an answer that would finaly make you decide to post here again, it was certainly this one. 

 

BTW Phantom, I have to congradulate you for your way of dealing with denialists, you've become REALLY good at it.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

Thanks Domino. The more I learn about the Genocide, the more irritated I get at the shallow denials you hear from Turkish people on the Internet. They seem so convinced of their position. Sometimes, I'm even convinced that they believe what they are saying. But with the ones who know more than the usual shallow "back-stabber" excuses, I think they know that it was a Genocide, but they are so afraid of it becoming common knowledge or acknowledged by Turkey, because they think they'll have to pay Armenians money or give up land. I think that the average Turk would rather cut off their own testicles and store them in a jar next to their bed than give Armenians anything, much less money or land. They don't like us, and with each passing day, I think they hate us even more, because of the seemingly renewed interest in this subject by academics and increased acknowledgment of the Genocide by goverments and also because of Karabagh. Anyway, it makes me sad, because I don't hate Turks and I don't want to hate them even though they do so much harm to Armenia and to Armenian history. I wish they would shape up so that I could feel good for once for coming from Turkey.

[phantom]

Sorry buddy. When I read the headline by that newspaper I got incensed. I'm not expecting them to rebel against their government but a little assertiveness would have been better. I read the statement by Patriarch Mesrob and I must say I am very impressed. Turkey will never join te EU whether we want to or not because let's face it they are very poor and underdeveloped. We shouldn't put our hope on that.

I'm going to visit Istanbul in February or March.  Do you know Naregatsi Comic Cafe? Is it any good? I know that some of names on the menu have references to the Armenian Genocide. Deir Zor salad and such.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

You know, I haven't been back to Bolis since I left there when I was 4, so I don't know about that cafe. My dad lives there though, and I can ask for the names of some good restaurants and find out if Naregatsi is any good. I'll also ask him if he knows of any other good Armenian owned restaurants.

[DominO123]

Thanks Domino.  The more I learn about the Genocide, the more irritated I get at the shallow denials you hear from Turkish people on the Internet.  They seem so convinced of their position.  Sometimes, I'm even convinced that they believe what they are saying.  But with the ones who know more than the usual shallow "back-stabber" excuses, I think they know that it was a Genocide, but they are so afraid of it becoming common knowledge or acknowledged by Turkey, because they think they'll have to pay Armenians money or give up land.  I think that the average Turk would rather cut off their own testicles and store them in a jar next to their bed than give Armenians anything, much less money or land.  They don't like us, and with each passing day, I think they hate us even more, because of the seemingly renewed interest in this subject by academics and increased acknowledgment of the Genocide by goverments and also because of Karabagh.  Anyway, it makes me sad, because I don't hate Turks and I don't want to hate them even though they do so much harm to Armenia and to Armenian history.  I wish they would shape up so that I could feel good for once for coming from Turkey.

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

You are starting to feel exactly how I feel. Many claim sharing the same sentiment, but they do not share it. What you are now feeling is not what the typical Armenian feel, it is what many Armenian intellectuals feel after trying to debate in vain. You will realise, and probably already realised that you can not make them change. You already said to me in the past about just stopping this and letting them believe what they want... but you can't stop and you know it. Again the same example with the astrophysicist knowing that he will never find the secrets about all the universe, but he just can't stop wanting them... or a researcher that know he could not find the cure for all the diseases, but he can't prevent himself wanting them. You are here, finding some pleasure debating with Turks, even if their behavor disgust you, something in you is telling to continue doing that, again, again and again, when your reason is telling you it won't change them.

 

What you are doing is NOT WORTHLESS, you are defending history, you are preventing victims memory to be hijacked, this alone is enought of a reason to kick those denialist buts, and taking pleasure at doing it, again, again and again, knowing perfectly that you wont change them. Your goal should not be changing their opinion, your goal is to defend the truth, and to teach other young Armenians visiting those boards, and they will start immitating you... and in their turn, they will understand that they can't change denialist minds, but that that is not important. What is important is to make denialists realise that we are well armed, and we have answers for every trash they will spew...

 

You've become someone that denialists fear. And please, the next time don't tell a denialist when talking about me: "you don't know with whom you're dealing with etc." You're now a leading head in those forum wars, a JEDI, let others tell denialists they don't know with whom they are dealing with when talking about you.

[phantom]

You are starting to feel exactly how I feel. Many claim sharing the same sentiment, but they do not share it. What you are now feeling is not what the typical Armenian feel, it is what many Armenian intellectuals feel after trying to debate in vain. You will realise, and probably already realised that you can not make them change. You already said to me in the past about just stopping this and letting them believe what they want... but you can't stop and you know it. Again the same example with the astrophysicist knowing that he will never find the secrets about all the universe, but he just can't stop wanting them... or a researcher that know he could not find the cure for all the diseases, but he can't prevent himself wanting them. You are here, finding some pleasure debating with Turks, even if their behavor disgust you, something in you is telling to continue doing that, again, again and again, when your reason is telling you it won't change them.

 

What you are doing is NOT WORTHLESS, you are defending history, you are preventing victims memory to be hijacked, this alone is enought of a reason to kick those denialist buts, and taking pleasure at doing it, again, again and again, knowing perfectly that you wont change them. Your goal should not be changing their opinion, your goal is to defend the truth, and to teach other young Armenians visiting those boards, and they will start immitating you... and in their turn, they will understand that they can't change denialist minds, but that that is not important. What is important is to make denialists realise that we are well armed, and we have answers for every trash they will spew...

 

You've become someone that denialists fear. And please, the next time don't tell a denialist when talking about me: "you don't know with whom you're dealing with etc."  You're now a leading head in those forum wars, a JEDI,  let others tell denialists they don't know with whom they are dealing with when talking about you. 

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

True that! But let me tell you, every time I have to promise myself that I will remain calm and not get into an insult war with these people. And usually I manage to keep my answers directed at the topic and stay focused, but it is very difficult, because I attract the insults based solely on the position that I take. These forums are not designed for rational, objective, and unheated discussions. There is no control or no neutral bystander who steers the topic or mediates. Thus, it eventually turns into a situation where I am called a liar/fabricator/dirty lawyer, etc., and then the discussion ends, because I stop talking at that point. Denialists are good at changing the subject, deflecting, bringing up irrelevant facts or issues, and calling names, as you well know. Yes, I can't help myself, but at the same time, I feel stupid for bothering with these people in these forums.

 

By the way, to this day, I have never heard any Turk respond to the fact that in 1919, Turkish officials put the murder count during the deportations at 800,000. Have you ever heard an answer from a denialist about this fact? How do they manage to ignore it and still claim that only 300,000 Armenians were killed?

[DominO123]

By the way, to this day, I have never heard any Turk respond to the fact that in 1919, Turkish officials put the murder count during the deportations at 800,000.  Have you ever heard an answer from a denialist about this fact?  How do they manage to ignore it and still claim that only 300,000 Armenians were killed?

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Come on Phantom, it isn't the only thing that they won't ever respond directly. Remember at t.com when I had posted a bunch of questions for Turks to answer and they waren't even able to answer a single of them? The only crap they will cook about it, is that it was a propaganda from occupied Ottoman to please the allies. The only that really tried to answer why it appeared in Orbays memoir was the author of tallarmeniantale in a discussion at g.com(you probably remember it). He turned around the issue without daring to go directly and answering it.

 

Do you remember Iseewhitepeople? The foundamentalist Turk that wanted to keep me and exterminate the rest of the Armenians. Even though this guy was an extremist to the core, in such issues, when facts were presented, he never really tried to twist them. He accepted the 800,000 figure.

 

Isn't it funny that those that shout racism in every discussions are the first racists themselves. Some Turks are really cute when just after slandering, generalising Armenians they shout racism.

 

Anyway, consider hyeforum your internet home, and other forums as taking a walk outside your home, and come visit here more often.

Edited January 7, 2005 by Fadix

[Stormig]

I'm going to visit Istanbul in February or March.  Do you know Naregatsi Comic Cafe? Is it any good? I know that some of names on the menu have references to the Armenian Genocide. Deir Zor salad and such.

style_images/master/snapback.png

You must be joking. Dayr az-Zawr salad? Sarkis likely serves pop and tiramisu.

[ED]

EURASIA INSIGHT

TURKISH DRIVE TOWARDS EU INCREASES POSSIBILITIES FOR CHANGE IN THE CAUCASUS

Jon Gorvett 1/06/05

 

 

 

The European Union’s decision to pursue membership talks with Turkey could have far-reaching political and economic ramifications for the Caucasus. The accession process can stimulate democratization in the region, experts say.

 

The EU decided December 17 to open what promises to be a lengthy accession process with Turkey. Some political observers in Turkey say the decision immediately increased pressure on Ankara to normalize relations with neighboring Armenia. In recent months, Ankara and Yerevan have probed a rapprochement, but they have yet to make substantive progress in overcoming long-standing mutual hostility. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].

 

"If Turkey starts accession talks," adds Professor Gareth Winrow of Istanbul’s Bilgi University, "it will have to normalize relations with all its neighbors as a condition of future EU membership. Number one, this means opening all its borders."

 

Turkey’s has kept its frontier with Armenia closed since 1993. The closure is connected with a Turkish embargo designed to encourage Armenia’s withdrawal from Azerbaijani territory captured during the Nagorno-Karabkah conflict. [For additional information see the Eurasia Insight archive]. Turkish political leaders in mid-2004 mulled re-opening the border, but the idea met fierce resistance, both in Turkey and in Azerbaijan, and officials backed off the idea. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].

 

Turkish observers say the government will have a difficult time finessing the border issue, adding that despite the EU pressure, the status quo may not change in the near future. "If Turkey just opened the border because of EU pressure, there might easily be a backlash," warned Mustafa Sahin of the Ankara-based Eurasian think tank, AVSAM. "Azerbaijan is a very popular cause in Turkey. Also, Armenia still has territorial claims on Turkey that would have to be solved."

 

Turkish territorial concerns stem from Armenia’s refusal to recognize the Kars Treaty of 1921, which set the frontiers between the two states. Armenia claims there is no need for such recognition, as acceptance of the existing borders was implicit when both countries joined the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). Turkey, however, continues to seek a specific guarantee of Armenian recognition for the existing border.

 

Armenian President Robert Kocharian in late 2004 appealed to the EU to place the opening of the frontier among the pre-conditions for Turkey’s EU membership. "It is unacceptable for a country that is to have membership talks with the EU to keep its border closed with another country that is already in the neighborhood policy of Europe," Kocharian said.

 

The Armenian leader was referring to the EU Neighborhood Policy (EUNP), which was formulated to provide a framework for states bordering on the EU, such as Moldova and Ukraine. "The EUNP is designed to give support and dialogue to those countries that have no prospect of joining for now," adds Winrow. "At first, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan were excluded from the EUNP, but after the Rose Revolution in Georgia, the EU changed its mind and allowed them in." [For additional information see the Eurasia Insight archive].

 

If Turkey and Armenia can eventually settle their differences, some observers believe pressure could increase on the Baku and Yerevan to reach a Artsax settlement. Others, however, are guarded about the possibilities. "Accession talks won’t have any direct effect on the Armenian issue," suggested Ferai Tinc, a political analyst for the Hurriyet daily. "We’ve seen many times before these moves to sort out the border."

 

Nevertheless, Tinc and others say Turkey’s move towards EU membership cannot but have a positive impact on the Caucasus. "It will send a message to the region that will be good for the democratization process," says Tinc. "Turkey’s relations with the Caucasian states will be within a different framework – not as a big brother, but as a member of a community."

 

Sahin, the AVSAM think-tank expert, said that even though Armenia views Turkey with suspicion, a significant number of Armenians want to see Ankara’s accession effort succeed. "Armenia is a little split on the issue," Sahin said. "But even there, many argue that Turkey’s accession process will give Armenia greater leverage for change."

 

Meanwhile, others see Turkey’s European path as helping to widen EU influence with another regional big power, Russia. "Turkey can play a very important role here," says Winrow. "As can an organization such as the Black Sea Economic Cooperation (BSEC). Turkey can show its strategic importance to Europe and get better and closer regional relations through this."

 

 

 

Editor’s Note: Jon Gorvett is a freelance journalist based in Istanbul.

 

 

http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insi...av010605a.shtml