Turkey's Accession To Eu

[DominO123]

Domino, Turkey is gonna be a member this or that way. Isen't it counterproductive to become a tool in someone' s hands? Wouldn't it be silly of us to make Turkey feel like Armenians want bad to them. I don't think we want them feel bad. We want us to feel good.

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Armen, I don't want bad for them. I jut can't understand why Turkey should be in the EU. IT'S EVEN NOT IN EUROPE. European Union... it's the union between states in EUROPE. I just can't understand that their cases has gone to negotiations. An "inch" of the country in Europe, doesn't change the fact that Turkey IS NOT in Europe.

 

Beside that, Turkey's regime has nothing European, it's based on a militaristic dictatorial regime. That's what Ataturkist Modern Turkey IS!!! Neither there is a place in Europe of a country that IS NOT in Europe, neither there is a place for a country THAT HAS a militaristic regime. If the militaristic fall, it'll be a regime controled by Islam, in both cases, the government isn't an European standard. WHY SHOULD IT BE??? Turkey IS NOT and European country.

 

One of the reason why Turkey wan't a pieces of cake, is because Ataturks envy on Europe that persisted in the psychi of the citizens of Turkey until now, while they criticise Europe in every given occasions, they fight endlessly to be in the EU, they think that by being in, they'll be European. They're NOT.

 

This has nothing to do with religion, this has to do with two different worlds.

 

That's Turkey recognise or not the genocide, it'll not change my view, I don't even think that the genocide should even be brought here.

[Maral]

Here's one in English

 

http://www.capwiz.com/anca/mail/oneclick_c...alertid=6751496

[Nakharar]

Armen, I don't want bad for them. I jut can't understand why Turkey should be in the EU. IT'S EVEN NOT IN EUROPE. European Union... it's the union between states in EUROPE. I just can't understand that their cases has gone to negotiations. An "inch" of the country in Europe, doesn't change the fact that Turkey IS NOT in Europe.

 

Beside that, Turkey's regime has nothing European, it's based on a militaristic dictatorial regime. That's what Ataturkist Modern Turkey IS!!! Neither there is a place in Europe of a country that IS NOT in Europe, neither there is a place for a country THAT HAS a militaristic regime. If the militaristic fall, it'll be a regime controled by Islam, in both cases, the government isn't an European standard. WHY SHOULD IT BE??? Turkey IS NOT and European country.

 

One of the reason why Turkey wan't a pieces of cake, is because Ataturks envy on Europe that persisted in the psychi of the citizens of Turkey until now, while they criticise Europe in every given occasions, they fight endlessly to be in the EU, they think that by being in, they'll be European. They're NOT.

 

This has nothing to do with religion, this has to do with two different worlds.

 

That's Turkey recognise or not the genocide, it'll not change my view, I don't even think that the genocide should even be brought here.

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Geography has little part in it. Who is to pinpoint where Europe or Asia begins anyway? If Europe wanted to become a player in the world stage they would admit Turkey in a day, since it will remain a strategic partner for the US otherwise. The problem is more cultural (hence religious) and if Turkey were a European country culturally (which it isn't) it would have been admitted a long time ago. They never had a chance to begin with. The department I work at deals with Emerging Markets in Europe and I have been to Turkey twice this year for the first time. There are many reasons why Turkey will never get into the EU, most of them for socio-economical reasons. I may not know much about the country in general but I could observe some things at closehand. There is a great discrepancy between the urban areas and the rural countryside. They still have a rural population of 40% most of them subsistence farmers. Only Poland comes close to this rate. But Polish farmers are not even remotely as desperate as these ones. Turkey has a small middle class and fast growing population with little employment opportunity. I hardly doubt that Turkey is a militaristic dictatorial regime. It's more of a paternalistic and regimented "democracy". I think everyone knows their place there.

I don't know why everyone underestimates European public sentiment here. There is a serious backlash against foreign immigrants in Europe. They make up 5 to 10% in each EU country. That's probably the most important reason why Turkey won't be admitted even if they get their entry date. There are three million Turks living here in Germany and a million or so in other European countries. And they happen to be the most visible group there is. I admit I feel jealous by the publicity the Turks get. You can't imagine how much coverage there is about them in the TV channels and newspapers. You get a constant bombardment of all things Turkish in Europe be it in the news, cultural aspects, billboards. We are not even a dot compared to them in terms of media coverage.

[Siamanto]

Domino, Turkey is gonna be a member this or that way. Isen't it counterproductive to become a tool in someone' s hands? Wouldn't it be silly of us to make Turkey feel like Armenians want bad to them. I don't think we want them feel bad. We want us to feel good.

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Do you happen to have confidential and privileged information that is not accessible to us, the laymen?

What makes you think that? The past indicates to the contrary!

 

 

 

 

NTV MSNBC, Turkey

Dec 14 2004

 

French FM back off from Armenian statement

 

Turkey has always rejected claims that the Ottomans carried out a

policy of genocide against it Armenian citizens.

 

December 14 - France's Foreign Minister has backed away from his

statement that Turkey had to acknowledge the so called Armenian

genocide as one of the conditions for it to join the European Union.

 

    Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said Tuesday that it was not

France's position that Ankara had to acknowledge the allegations of

committing genocide against the Ottoman empire's Armenian community

during the years of World War One. His comments were in contrast to a

statement made Monday that Turkey had to accept responsibility for

the events of ninety years ago in order to start accession

negotiations with the EU.

      `France does not pose it as a condition, notably not for

opening negotiations,' Barnier said on French television. `Legally,

that would not be possible.'

      Turkey has always strenuously denied that any deliberate

massacre of Armenians occurred, though does acknowledge that many

thousands of Armenian and Turkish Ottoman citizens died during the

turmoil of the war in the east of Turkey.

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This is USUAL Jurkish misinformation, distortion, naive, wishful interpretation.

Yes, it won't be put as a precondition to the START of the negotiations, but will be discussed before the ENTRY!

 

Read the following - if you read French - IT IS OBVIOUS:

Barnier et le génocide à l’Assemblée nationale :

EUROPE, 15 décembre 2004 -ARMENEWS-. COMPTE RENDU ANALYTIQUE OFFICIEL De la séance du 14 décembre 2004 :

La séance est ouverte à quinze heures.

QUESTIONS au GOUVERNEMENT

L'ordre du jour appelle les questions au Gouvernement.

ADHÉSION DE LA TURQUIE À L'UNION EUROPÉENNE

M. Bernard Deflesselles - Le 17 décembre, au sommet des chefs d'Etat et de gouvernement à Bruxelles, la France prendra position sur l'ouverture des négociations concernant l'entrée de la Turquie en Europe. Cette perspective inquiète une très grande majorité des Français et suscite même une vive opposition qui devrait être prise en compte. Le débat en cours depuis des mois a montré qu'il y avait deux possibilités : soit l'adhésion, après de très longues négociations, soit un partenariat privilégié, solution qui semble avoir la préférence des Français. Hier, au conseil des affaires générales et des relations extérieures, Monsieur le ministre des affaires étrangères, vous avez rappelé avec raison que le projet européen depuis plus de 50 ans était fondé sur le respect et la réconciliation entre tous les Européens et surtout entre la France et l'Allemagne, sur la réconciliation avec soi-même. Dans cet esprit, de très nombreuses voix en France, dont la nôtre, se sont élevées pour demander que la reconnaissance du génocide arménien par la Turquie constitue une condition préalable à l'ouverture de toute négociation avec ce pays.

M. Pierre Lellouche et M. Jean Leonetti - Très bien !

M. Bernard Deflesselles - L'Europe ayant fait sur elle-même un travail de mémoire, peut demander solennellement à la Turquie de l'engager. Au-delà des critères d'adhésion élaborés par Bruxelles, il y a là une exigence morale. Je vous demande d'expliciter la conviction de la France. (Applaudissements sur les bancs du groupe UMP)

M. Michel Barnier, ministre des affaires étrangères - Tout au long de cette négociation, longue, difficile, qui va sans doute s'ouvrir avec la Turquie, la France veut tenir un langage de vérité. Toutes les questions seront posées, tous les problèmes soulevés, et ce sera le cas en particulier de cette tragédie...

M. François Rochebloine - Ce génocide !

M. Michel Barnier, ministre des affaires étrangères - Je n'oublie pas que votre Assemblée, à l'unanimité, a qualifié cette tragédie de génocide en 2001. (Quelques applaudissements sur les bancs du groupe UMP) Ce sera donc le cas de cette tragédie dans laquelle des centaines de milliers d'Arméniens ont été martyrisés.

Nous allons poser la question de la reconnaissance de cette tragédie, d'abord parce que c'est une blessure qui ne se cicatrise pas pour de très nombreuses familles françaises d'origine arménienne, ensuite car cette question touche au cœur même d'un projet européen fondé sur la réconciliation, avec les autres, avec soi-même, avec son histoire. Mais ce ne sera pas une condition préalable à l'ouverture des négociations d'adhésion. Ce sera une question que la France va poser dans la négociation, parce que c'est la négociation qui permettra à la Turquie de faire ce travail de mémoire et de nous donner une réponse et qu'elle sera de toute façon conclue par un vote des Français. (Applaudissements sur les bancs du groupe UMP

(Suite) ADHÉSION DE LA TURQUIE À L'UNION EUROPÉENNE

M. François Bayrou - Une décision dont nous mesurons tous l'importance sera prise dans deux jours à Bruxelles concernant l'adhésion de la Turquie à l'Union européenne. Malgré les nombreuses questions qui ont été posées, il est incroyable que l'on ignore encore tout de la ligne politique qui sera suivie par le Gouvernement : le débat a été refusé, le vote a été écarté. Le Gouvernement a d'abord affirmé qu'il était favorable à l'adhésion, puis nous avons cru comprendre qu'un partenariat privilégié pourrait être envisagé et il semblerait enfin que cette option ait été abandonnée. Le ministre des affaires étrangères a déclaré hier que la France exigerait de la Turquie la reconnaissance " de la tragédie arménienne du début du siècle ". Mais " tragédie " n'est pas " génocide " : c'est là le signe d'un premier fléchissement de notre pays. (Applaudissements sur les bancs du groupe UDF) Ce matin, le ministre a en outre annoncé qu'il n'était pas question de faire de cette reconnaissance une condition pour l'ouverture de négociations, de même en ce qui concerne Chypre : nous nous apprêtons donc à ouvrir des négociations avec un Etat qui ne reconnaît pas l'un des pays de l'Union et qui occupe militairement une partie de son territoire. Une telle inconséquence est incompréhensible et empêche notre pays de peser sur une négociation alors que nous disposons d'un droit de veto. Pendant ce temps, le gouvernement turc se montre, lui, fort conséquent puisque son Premier ministre a déclaré qu'il n'accepterait aucun partenariat privilégié, qu'il ne reconnaîtrait pas le gouvernement chypriote non plus que le génocide arménien.

Au-delà de l'acceptation pure et simple de l'adhésion de la Turquie à ses conditions propres et contre le sentiment d'une majorité de Français, que cherche le Gouvernement à travers l'ouverture de ces négociations ? (Applaudissements sur les bancs du groupe UDF)

M. Pierre Lellouche - Et, vous, que cherchez-vous, Monsieur Bayrou ?

M. Michel Barnier, ministre des affaires étrangères - Je vous rappelle que nous dialoguons avec la Turquie depuis 1963. Le général de Gaulle avait alors évoqué la vocation européenne de ce pays. Depuis, aucun gouvernement, y compris ceux auxquels vous avez participé, Monsieur Bayrou, n'a jamais remis en cause cette vocation. (Applaudissements sur plusieurs bancs du groupe UMP) En 1999, le Conseil européen, auquel participaient MM. Chirac et Jospin, a reconnu à la Turquie un statut de candidat. Nous en sommes là. Jeudi et vendredi, en effet, nous devons décider de l'éventuelle ouverture de négociations sur l'adhésion de la Turquie. Il ne s'agit que de cela, et ceux qui font croire aux Français que la Turquie entrera demain ou après-demain dans l'Union ne disent pas la vérité. Nous abordons cette négociation avec quatre exigences : sincérité - nous dirons aux Turcs, sans pour autant faire preuve de complaisance, que nous souhaitons l'aboutissement de ces négociations -, réalisme - ces négociations seront longues, difficiles et nous poserons toutes les questions, notamment celles de la reconnaissance du génocide arménien et de Chypre -, transparence - le Parlement sera régulièrement informé des étapes de la négociation -, démocratie enfin - car ce n'est ni vous ni moi, Monsieur Bayrou, qui trancherons mais bien le vote du peuple français. (Applaudissements sur les bancs du groupe UMP)

 

http://www.armenews.com/New/news.asp?id_news=6902

[Siamanto]

The European Parliament adopts an amendment urging TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey to

1- Formally recognize the Armenian Genocide

2- Promptly open the borders with Armenia

 

 

 

Le Parlement européen vient d’adopter un amendement demandant à la Turquie de reconnaître le génocide et de rouvrir sa frontière avec l’Arménie

Reconnaissance, le 15 décembre 2004, Armenews Les députés du Parlement européen viennent d’adopter en début d’après-midi un amendement par 332 voix contre 325 appelant " la Commission européenne et le Conseil à exiger des autorités turques la reconnaissance formelle de la réalité historique du génocide des Arméniens en 1915 et l'ouverture dans un délai rapide de la frontière entre la Turquie et l'Arménie ", sans en faire cependant un préalable aux négociations. Les eurodéputés viennent également de se prononcer en faveur de l’ouverture " sans délai inutile " des négociations entre Ankara et Bruxelles, par 407 voix contre 262 et 29 abstentions. L’avis du Parlement européen est cependant symbolique puisque ce dernier a un rôle consultatif et que la décision appartient aux chefs d’Etat et de gouvernement de l’UE qui se réunissent demain et vendredi à Bruxelles. Le rapport que les eurodéputés viennent d’adopter n’envisage pas d'alternative à l'adhésion, comme le " partenariat privilégié " réclamé par les droites française et allemande Si l'objectif " est que la Turquie devienne membre de l'UE ", ces négociations sont cependant " un processus ouvert qui ne conduit pas a priori ni automatiquement à l'adhésion ", précise le rapport qui énumère une série de conditions à remplir, dont " une tolérance zéro " contre la torture. Les eurodéputés appellent également au retrait des troupes turques du nord de Chypre et notent que les négociations se dérouleront avec les 25 Etats membres de l'UE, ce qui, "à l'évidence, implique la reconnaissance de Chypre par la Turquie".

 

 

 

http://www.armenews.com/New/news.asp?id_news=6903

[Armen]

WHY SHOULD IT BE??? Turkey IS NOT and European country.

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It shouldn't. But the need is dictated by the geopolitical and geoeconomic reasons. EU wants to be near to oil resources of the Middle East (Iran in particular). It neens younger population because its population is getting old. Also, it needs Turkey to be out of U.S. influence.

[Armen]

Do you happen to have confidential and privileged information that is not accessible to us, the laymen?

Shame on you Siamanto. You should have known by now that I talk to God 

What makes you think that? The past indicates to the contrary!

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What part do you want me to clarify? Didn't quite get the target of your question.

Edited December 15, 2004 by Armen

[Siamanto]

Shame on you Siamanto. You should have known by now that I talk to God 

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Are you talking to yourself now? Reading your posts, one would think that yourself is God!

 

What part do you want me to clarify? Didn't quite get the target of your question.

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I thought that someone with supernatural skills would have guessed! It seems that as humans can't comprehend God, Gods can't understand Humans! Is it why you seem so confused?

 

Yes! My question was a little ambiguous! I meant:

Why do you think that SO CALLED "Turkey is gonna be a member this or that way?"

[Armen]

Are you talking to yourself now? Reading your posts, one would think that yourself is God!

Finally someone recognized me You're going to Heaven buddy. How many virgins do you need?

I thought that someone with supernatural skills would have guessed! It seems that as humans can't comprehend God, Gods can't understand Humans! Is it why you seem so confused?

No, I was confused because some humans sometimes start behaving as if they are Gods and this creates a chaos. Everything has its place in this world

Yes! My question was a little ambiguous! I meant:

Why do you think that SO CALLED "Turkey is gonna be a member this or that way?"

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Because EU wants to get a independent source of oil. Independent from the US control.

[ED]

Siamanto, hargelis, please take a moment and traslate your French posts into English, some members might not have acsess to traslation software such as MS Word.

 

thanks.

[Stormig]

Also, it needs Turkey to be out of U.S. influence.

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But that can't happen and can't be made to happen simply by admission into the EU.

[Armen]

But that can't happen and can't be made to happen simply by admission into the EU.

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No matter how strong is the U.S. influence on the Eastrn European countries (so called NEw Europe), it is a temporary phenomenon. It will diminish because the public will become more Eurocentric with time and will vote for more Europcentric governments. Same goes for Turkey. In fact, having the experience with the Eastrn Europe, France and Germany are clearly twisting Turkey's hand more than they did it with Eastrn Europe. And Turkey is in a trap. The governemtn says it can reverse the appication for member ship but in reality if Turkey decides to stop the negotiations for good it will bring to a huge crisis in Turkey, economic, political and social crisis, which will have very dangerous outcome. As always, Turkey will become the "ill man" of the region that doesn't know what it wants...This is why EU has more leverage and Turkey is gonna lose a considerable amount of its soveregnity along with the diminishing U.S. influence.

[nairi]

BBC News

Last Updated: Monday, 13 December, 2004, 22:20 GMT

 

Turkey 'must admit Armenia dead'

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One of those articles that once again proves that the BBC (or BSC) cannot be trusted for any of their reports on anything. Quite sad really, that such an internationally acclaimed broadcast company would spew such BS.

[Nakharar]

One of those articles that once again proves that the BBC (or BSC) cannot be trusted for any of their reports on anything. Quite sad really, that such an internationally acclaimed broadcast company would spew such BS.

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Isn't that old news? It was pretty self-evident that this was not the case in the first place. So it's not a coincidence in my opinion.

[Stormig]

No matter how strong is the U.S. influence on the Eastrn European countries (so called NEw Europe), it is a temporary phenomenon. It will diminish because the public will become more Eurocentric with time and will vote for more Europcentric governments. Same goes for Turkey. In fact, having the experience with the Eastrn Europe, France and Germany are clearly twisting Turkey's hand more than they did it with Eastrn Europe. And Turkey is in a trap. The governemtn says it can reverse the appication for member ship but in reality if Turkey decides to stop the negotiations for good it will bring to a huge crisis in Turkey, economic, political and social crisis, which will have very dangerous outcome. As always, Turkey will become the "ill man" of the region that doesn't know what it wants...This is why EU has more leverage and Turkey is gonna lose a considerable amount of its soveregnity along with the diminishing U.S. influence.

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Sounds self-serving.

[Armen]

Sounds self-serving.

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Whom do you expect me to serve? You? You don't have that much money little girl

[Siamanto]

Finally someone recognized me [smiley] You're going to Heaven buddy. How many virgins do you need?

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At first sight, it sounds like an offer one can't refuse. Too good to be true!

In fact, the small print says:

"Any Human should first die before he - or she - shall be admitted into Heaven. All promised virgins will be available when in Heaven."

Adam's apple! What a snake!

Are you trying to get rid of me? If so, why can't say it - with all Honesty - like a MAN? What am I saying: you're not a MAN!

Why do you want me dead? Why do you wish me evil? I thought that God was benevolent!

 

 

 

 

No, I was confused because some humans sometimes start behaving as if they are Gods and this creates a chaos. Everything has its place in this world [smiley]

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Don't blame others! For God's sake, be a MAN!

 

 

 

Because EU wants to get a independent source of oil. Independent from the US control.

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Tomorrow! I've already wasted too much time with someone who admits to be confused!

 

Kisher Pari!

Edited December 17, 2004 by Siamanto

[Siamanto]

Siamanto, hargelis, please take a moment and traslate your French posts into English, some members might not have acsess to traslation software such as MS Word.

 

thanks.

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Edward,

I understand that it may be frustrating . Sorry!

I don't provide adequate translation, because I have limited time. I can't promise to translate them in the future, but I will promise to spend some time this weekend to find a free automatic translator. Preferably web based!

[Armen]

At first sight, it sounds like an offer one can't refuse. Too good to be true!

In fact, the small print says:

"Any Human should first die before he - or she - shall be admitted into Heaven. All promised virgins will be available when in Heaven." [/size]

Adam's apple! What a snake!

Are you trying to get rid of me? If so, why can't say it - with all Honesty - like a MAN? What am I saying: you're not a MAN!

Why do you wish me evil? I thought that God was benevolent!

Don't blame others! For God's sake, be a MAN!

 

Adam's apple and stuff were when I sent you down on the Earth. Now it is totally different. You're coming back with your experience from the Earth. And I notice some very troubling things. You want me, the God, to turn into a man and you refuse women in an illusion that I want to get rid of you. Hmmm ... Men, ha? That's not my area of responsibility. Apply to the department in the basement Check out the weather forcast before going there. Some say it is freezing down there ...

 

Tomorrow! I've already wasted too much time with someone who admits to be confused!

 

So ... I wasted all my lifetime to create you humans and this is what I get ... You refuse to waste time on me. Guess you humans were one of my biggest failed projects. Where is that "delete" button?

 

Kisher Pari!

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Aghvor yerzaner desnis zavags ...

[Sasun]

At first sight, it sounds like an offer one can't refuse. Too good to be true!

In fact, the small print says:

"Any Human should first die before he - or she - shall be admitted into Heaven. All promised virgins will be available when in Heaven."

Adam's apple! What a snake!

Are you trying to get rid of me? If so, why can't say it - with all Honesty - like a MAN? What am I saying: you're not a MAN!

Why do you want me dead? Why do you wish me evil? I thought that God was benevolent!

Don't blame others! For God's sake, be a MAN!

Tomorrow! I've already wasted too much time with someone who admits to be confused!

 

Kisher Pari!

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Siamanto, you should have taken the offer. After this post Armen will change his mind

[Sasun]

So I just heard on the BBC news that Turkey's accession talks will start next October.

[Armen]

Here it is:

 

EU-Turkey talks set for October

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4103397.stm

 

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40638000/jpg/_40638759_summit_203body_ap.jpg

[Armen]

I think this quote from the article above pretty much sums one of the main reasons EU wants Turkey in ...

 

"If Turkey's application is successful, the EU's frontier would extend deep into the Middle East."

[Sasun]

I think this quote from the article above pretty much sums one of the main reasons EU wants Turkey in ...

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Armen, if Turkey's inclusion in the EU makes it a strong rival of the US then why has the US been anxious to push Europeans to accept Turkey?

[Armen]

Armen, if Turkey's inclusion in the EU makes it a strong rival of the US then why has the US been anxious to push Europeans to accept Turkey?

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I don't fully understand it either but I think it is a question of bargain and constant power struggle. E.g. U.S. pushes EU to accept Turkey in, EU counterstrikes by saying "OK, Turkey's gonna be in but on our terms". Also, perhaps EU, being cornered, started looking for some positive factors it can squeeze from it seeing that there is no alternative. It is like in aikido. You push me, I back down to the point where your inertion power unbalances you. So, these 15 years of accession is going to be a constant bergain until all sides come to a general consensus. That has been the way to struck deals in Euro-Atlantic community in the good old days. Basically, it is series of different agreements and contratcs, political and economic. But in the end Turkey must come very close to the deals that other members got.

Also, it appears the EU does not want to emerge as a rival to the U.S. but rather as an independent pole (as in the scheme of multipolar world). However, U.S. can view this as rivalry.

 

But you're right, at this point it is difficult to understand weather it was the U.S. push with UK and Eastern European countries being the lobbing tools, or it was a long term strategic decision by France and Germany. One day they say German government is against, the other day the Chancellor starts a strong lobbing campaign to help Turkey in. Confusing.