DominO123 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 By the way, here's my notice: If I ever become terminally sick, turn into a vegetable, and can't think for myself, talk or convey to you my decision on whether to stay alive or not, with a less than obvious chance for recovery, please don't hesitate a second before pulling the plug on me. Thank you. style_images/master/snapback.png I consider someone vegetable already dead, so pulling the plug out would not be euthanazia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 It can be justifiable homicide ... just like there is justifiable suicide. style_images/master/snapback.png Wasn't that homocide before? I have nothing against homocide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 You could be in that situation too. Whatever someone thinks of his life's worth is solely dependent on that person. Outsiders like you and I have no business to pontificate who is worthy to be alive or not. style_images/master/snapback.png That's not fair. I didn't say that these people are not worthy to be alive. (And concerning euthanasia I only talk about the premature, sick babies.) I just mean that they are in a lot of pain and suffering and it's more humane to end their suffering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 There was this incident in the UK recently, where the hospital forcibly wanted to end the life of a premature and very sick baby with little chance of survival against the wishes of the parents. The parents could succesfully challenge the courts. The case in the Netherlands is pretty similar. I would consider the first case and the latter as murder. I don't know, but that we are even talking about this is pretty upsetting. There are no easy answers to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Local Family Has Daughter Born Without a Face After seeing things like this, I can't help but become more set on my stance on the appropriateness of euthanasia in certain cases. Sorry for the heart wrenching story, but it is a fact of life and we can't simply ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 A perfect example of life not being fair and innocent people suffering the most Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 After seeing things like this, I can't help but become more set on my stance on the appropriateness of euthanasia in certain cases. style_images/master/snapback.png What more to say than what's already in the article: "If you are interested in helping the Wetmore family, a savings account is set up for donations at the Vystar Credit Union in Middleburg. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 (edited) "Juliana has to eat through her stomach, and she has a trach to breathe. Already, less than two years into her life, she's had 14 surgeries. Doctors say she could need at least 30 more." ... what if those 44 surgeries could save 44 other lives? i.e. is that really the best place to donate? Edited December 15, 2004 by Seapahn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 (edited) "Juliana has to eat through her stomach, and she has a trach to breathe. Already, less than two years into her life, she's had 14 surgeries. Doctors say she could need at least 30 more." ... what if those 44 surgeries could save 44 other lives? style_images/master/snapback.png If that was the case then I believe a choice for saving more lives would have to be taken. However, I am sure that's not the case. There are plenty of resources and plenty of doctors to pay attention to all needed surgeries. Yet, a tremendous amount of lives and resources are spent on wars, which in turn take more lives. It is absurd - the vanity of the world. Edited December 15, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 If that was the case then I believe a choice for saving more lives would have to be taken. However, I am sure that's not the case. There are plenty of resources and plenty of doctors to pay attention to all needed surgeries. Yet, a tremendous amount of lives and resources are spent on wars, which in turn take more lives. It is absurd - the vanity of the world. style_images/master/snapback.png Sasun, aren't you aware that utilitarianism is only a thinly veiled form of social darwinism? It seems that a lot of people are susceptible to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 "Juliana has to eat through her stomach, and she has a trach to breathe. Already, less than two years into her life, she's had 14 surgeries. Doctors say she could need at least 30 more." style_images/master/snapback.png And what happens when she matures and enters into adulthood? Even before then? Knowing that the way she looks like is not accepted by society and people find her "disgusting"? It's very painful emotionally. And the pain she has to endure after each surgery? The anesthesia? Sasun, have you ever been under anesthesia for a couple of hours? Do you know how horrible it feels when you wake up? I have. It took me nearly three days to recover from the effects of anesthesia. And have you ever had surgery performed on your face? I have. It's horrible. The swollen eyes, not being able to eat correctly, feeling faint every time you look down, the light pain right after the surgery that gets worse and worse by the hour? Like I said, it took me three days to recover from anesthesia and about a week to get rid of the pain and feel a bit "normal". Only a week, and I knew that this was an only time, yet a week felt like forever. What about her? Knowing after each surgery that more is to come? Sasun, you think that people who support euthanasia are selfish because they don't want to take care of the sick. Well, I think opponents of euthanasia are the truly selfish because they fail to put themselves in other people's shoes and really examine the pain they have to endure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 What about her? What about her? Who am I to say anything about her? Shouldn't we ask her if she wants to live or not? Knowing after each surgery that more is to come? Sasun, you think that people who support euthanasia are selfish because they don't want to take care of the sick. Well, I think opponents of euthanasia are the truly selfish because they fail to put themselves in other people's shoes and really examine the pain they have to endure. style_images/master/snapback.png Anoushik, am I selfish to accept that girl's right to live? Or are you selfish to suggest that the girl should be killed? So what it is painful. I see you are living even though you had tough surgeries. Would you prefer to die instead? I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 What about her? Who am I to say anything about her? Shouldn't we ask her if she wants to live or not? Sasun, will you be the one to befriend her and care for her deeply and make her feel that her life is important? Other than her parents who will care for her? Who will make her feel that she belongs in this world? Unfortunately people are very quick to make judgments based on a person's appearance and the way one looks plays a big importance in one's life, even having a role in whether that person will have a successful life or not. Anoushik, am I selfish to accept that girl's right to live? Or are you selfish to suggest that the girl should be killed? So what it is painful. I see you are living even though you had tough surgeries. Would you prefer to die instead? I don't think so. My surgeries were nothing compared to hers. They weren't even "tough" but I got a taste of what very sick people have to endure day after day and I realized that I have no right to even complain about some unpleasant things in my life. No, now that she is living she shouldn't be killed. But if this kind of deformity was detected early in pregnancy I believe the fetus should be aborted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 I am going to bring up the Bible into this for religious believers. Was it not first in the Bible that we were given a glimpse into euthanasia, through the story of “Saddam and Gomorrah." Supposedly it was God's will to destroy a civilization in a city where chaos and dysfunctional humans existed? "the men of Sodom "were wicked, such sinners against the Lord, He decided to destroy them." For the people of the land, there was no escape, as the Lord "rained down fire and brimstone . . . He destroyed everyone living there and everything growing in the ground."" So the act of God destroying human life because it was considered "dysfunctional" by God is justified because it was God's will? Because it was a form of punishment? But euthanizing a terminally ill or terribly distorted human being through medical science, to save others from the fate of prolonged suffering is immoral and murderous? God could have kept those people alive and taught them through love and other means but an easier way out was chosen. Mind you those were several people who were not mutants. However in theory, many scholars believe that the story demonstrates a scientific experimentation on human beings gone wrong. Thus they nuked the town to eliminate their fatal mistake. But that's just a theory. However even the Bible on certain occasions justified murder. So from a religious perspective ending a life which is subjected to a severe "mutilation", be it metaphorical or physical, is permissive even in the Bible. That is not to say that sometimes I question my view of euthanasia, because I do believe in Karma. I do believe that incidents such as that, happen to people who have committed autrocious acts in their past life, and that is a way to humble them and experience the suffering they have inflicted onto others. But that's of course debatable, because either way memory is erased and they are no longer the same person as they were in their past life. This is of course all philosophical and have a big "IF" written all over it. And in Nakharar's defense, euthanasia of oneself is a valid term. Dr. Kevorkian comes to mind. People who are in constant suffering and unbearable living standards seek medical consultation to evaluate their situation and if there is no chance for improvement, in fact if the pain and their condition evolves into something completely unbearable they can choose an alternative of relieving themselves from endless and accelerating pain. And I am all for it. Suicide carries a completely different concept and is surrounded by often irrational and questionable justifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 That is not to say that sometimes I question my view of euthanasia, because I do believe in Karma. I do believe that incidents such as that, happen to people who have committed autrocious acts in their past life, and that is a way to humble them and experience the suffering they have inflicted onto others. But that's of course debatable, because either way memory is erased and they are no longer the same person as they were in their past life. This is of course all philosophical and have a big "IF" written all over it. style_images/master/snapback.png Were all the same person with different memories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Eve, just wanted to mention that "Sodom and Gomorrah" is an Old Testament story, where "eye for an eye" is a valid phylosophical and spritual concept. The New Testament (the real base of Christian thought) is based more on the concept of "all forgiving God". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Were all the same person with different memories. If that were the case, the ladies would go just as crazy about my or Azat's picture than they do about yours. So I'll say you are wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 That is not to say that sometimes I question my view of euthanasia, because I do believe in Karma. I do believe that incidents such as that, happen to people who have committed autrocious acts in their past life, and that is a way to humble them and experience the suffering they have inflicted onto others. But that's of course debatable, because either way memory is erased and they are no longer the same person as they were in their past life. This is of course all philosophical and have a big "IF" written all over it. style_images/master/snapback.png I don't. I think everyone who is born is either good or neutral at heart and it's the society that turns one evil. Therefore either God has to be blamed for failing to provide every new human being with a good, nurturing family or we can say that God doesn't exist. In a perfect world everyone would be given the same good start in life and then we could see how people would choose to lead their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Eve, just wanted to mention that "Sodom and Gomorrah" is an Old Testament story, where "eye for an eye" is a valid phylosophical and spritual concept. The New Testament (the real base of Christian thought) is based more on the concept of "all forgiving God". style_images/master/snapback.png From a religious perspective, both books are the "God's word." I don't understand the common defense of believers who negate one and chose the other. Religion is not based on scientific evidence, it is based on faith. And faith commends the acceptance of both books as sources of "Holy Wisdom." I don't "believe in" either one, so I can confidently distinguish and dissect each one, a believer is subjected to the opposing doctrine, which is to accept both as a holy testament. If you follow this trend of a Biblical evolution, then we can safely assume that the contents are more sensitive to the times and the needs of people given the current lifestyles. Besides, even we assume that one book differs from the other in terms of God's mental evolvement, based on this theory who says that the "modern mentality" of God is not more lenient towards gays, abortion and euthanasia? Perhaps we need a New Testament Part II? I think the writers are slacking off a bit, caught up in the political sectors of the Vatican. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 In a perfect world everyone would be given the same good start in life and then we could see how people would choose to lead their lives. style_images/master/snapback.png In that case in a perfect world everyone would be given not only a perfect start but also a perfect continuation and a perfect ending (or no ending/constant pleasant and exciting life [which would be a horror in itself]) because each one could choose to question Gods good will based on his life performance in different stages. If that was the case and everyone had a perfect everything, life would not exist as a notion in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 I don't. I think everyone who is born is either good or neutral at heart and it's the society that turns one evil. Therefore either God has to be blamed for failing to provide every new human being with a good, nurturing family or we can say that God doesn't exist. In a perfect world everyone would be given the same good start in life and then we could see how people would choose to lead their lives. style_images/master/snapback.png I've always conformed to the theory that God is just energy. God is not an omnipotent creature that dominates every sector of life, that sort of discretion is often left to a human disposal. The sooner we stop assigning this all-encompassing image to a Holy entity the sooner world will start making more sense. I don't believe that God can be blamed for all the complexities of life, nor would I want to believe that. Opposing forces must exist to sustain a balance in the universe. An extreme of any condition is not good. If you took away the imperfections and hardships people would lose their sense of humility and compassion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 If that was the case and everyone had a perfect everything, life would not exist as a notion in the first place. style_images/master/snapback.png Exactly my point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Eve, you're a pantheist. Now my job is to make you a Fadixist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 If you follow this trend of a Biblical evolution, then we can safely assume that the contents are more sensitive to the times and the needs of people given the current lifestyles. Besides, even we assume that one book differs from the other in terms of God's mental evolvement, based on this theory who says that the "modern mentality" of God is not more lenient towards gays, abortion and euthanasia? Perhaps we need a New Testament Part II? I think the writers are slacking off a bit, caught up in the political sectors of the Vatican. style_images/master/snapback.png That's correct we need a New Testament Part II. That's why Bible says a new saviour will arrive. It also says that he will have a new wisdom... Isn't it obvious that his new wisdom will have to deal with the new sinsof humanity? A constant search of spiritual development can bring to an understanding of the modern evils. The issue is not how to punish gays or that they should be punished. Ths issue is to recognize tha processes that bring to the current social setting, which clearly moves us towards a spiritual degradation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 If that were the case, the ladies would go just as crazy about my or Azat's picture than they do about yours. So I'll say you are wrong style_images/master/snapback.png And from when do you care about if you attract ladies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.