More Chinmoy

[DominO123]

If a certain website published all kinds of lies that I am a rapist, issue death threats, defraud people of money, and other charges, I would be very upset and try to talk to the ISP and have the site closed. Having said this, that site is not closed, but some pages are missing, and it says "the info was not 100% accurate" therefore the pages were removed.

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I repeated many times why this argument is weak. You suppose that he was innocent and use that as premis to build this argument of yours.

 

As for the quote "the info was not 100% accurate." You have no clue of what you are talking about. This is the presentation page of the "Information" section which contained dates or history of the sect etc... it had nothing to do with the testimonies or references etc... that are left intact.

[Stormig]

Accuracy and truthfulness are different things.

[Sasun]

I repeated many times why this argument is weak. You suppose that he was innocent and use that as premis to build this argument of yours.

So if somebody calls me a rapist, criminal on a website, and if I try to defend myself it is a wrong argument? It is your opinion only that the allegations are true. Opinions can be different and wrong, that is why there is the concept of presumption of innocence. So far you have violated that presumption, you are not allowing a person to defend himself.

As for the quote "the info was not 100% accurate." You have no clue of what you are talking about. This is the presentation page of the "Information" section which contained dates or history of the sect etc... it had nothing to do with the testimonies or references etc... that are left intact.

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They are using the word "inaccuracy" to cloak the untruthfulness.

 

Another thing, the website freely propagates disgraceful lies calling false testimonies "opinions and views", at the same time the owners of the website avoid responsibility by making the following disclaimer. Their money is not where their mouth is.

 

"Disclaimer: Opinions and views presented here are protected by the First Amendment allowing free speech. They are in no way libelous or slanderous to the organization known as the "Sri Chinmoy Center ™". The webmaster or host of this site has no personal or legal connection to any of the people on this site or the message board. "

 

As far as I know one cannot have an opinion that very specific crimes happened, it can be either true or false. To prove that it is true there is a court, allegations are only allegations until material proof is presented.

[Sasun]

http://www.rickross.com/graphics/Lift3.jpg

 

http://www.wunschverwirklichung.de/Neue_Dateien/1Photos/Gewicht1-1.JPG

 

If the abose photos are forgeries as claimed, where are the real ones? I would like to see them. Why should I believe in somebody's claim that the photo is forged? I want to see the original one. The judge would likely ask for an expert investigation, or ask for the negative of the photo that was allegedely later doctored. Until I see it, I have every right to suspect them of manipulating.

[DominO123]

http://www.rickross.com/graphics/Lift3.jpg

 

http://www.wunschverwirklichung.de/Neue_Dateien/1Photos/Gewicht1-1.JPG

 

If the abose photos are  forgeries as claimed, where are the real ones? I would like to see them. Why should I believe in somebody's claim that the photo is forged? I want to see the original one. The judge would likely ask for an expert investigation, or ask for the negative of the photo that was allegedely later doctored. Until I see it, I have every right to suspect them of manipulating.

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I don't see anything in those photos that shows he lifted the thing.

 

As for your claim... in any courts, materials would be highly questioned when the author of the materials claim having doctored his own pictures.

 

Here, I will do you a favour. You want evidences of the forgery? I will let you find it yourself by having them on your own face.

 

Contact Alex Zwarenstein, here is his email address.

 

info@vinceg.com

 

Ask him the questions you are asking.

[Sasun]

I don't see anything in those photos that shows he lifted the thing.

So wait a minute, what are you saying. Is this photo real or forged? Is there a lift or not in this picture? Weren't you saying this photo was forged? You are just having a pointless argument. The photo was forged, but then oh no, I can't see anything in that photo... if you can't see anything, then how can you claim that it was forged? Let's be honest here, will you clarify what is your claim? You are giving me the email, have you asked yourself? What is the claim now - is the photo forged or not? If I contact and find out that this photo was not forged, or that man has nothing to do with this photo, it would not make any differencfe, you will claim that you can't see anything in that photo. So I ask you again - what is your accusation? And stick to your accusation, I don't have a lot of time to waste.

[Sasun]

As for your claim... in any courts, materials would be highly questioned when the author of the materials claim having doctored his own pictures.

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It is actually the opposite. When two people claim opposite things, then material evidence is used to determine the truth. Because people can lie but material evidence will never lie. The author of the photo can lie, but the photo will not lie. That is why there are sophisiticated technologies to determine the authenticity of a photo, or whether or not it has been touched.

If the photographer claims that he has forged the photo, and the opposite side claims that is not the case, everyone has a reason to suspect and ask him how, in what way has he forged, and ask him to produce the original negative of the photo to convince them. Or, they can simply use advanced technology to find out if the photo is indeed forged, it is not that hard in this age. A photographer's verbal testimony has no more power than a non-photographer's verbal testimony.

[Azat]

What the hell are you two trying to prove? Because neither one of you is and I can speak for my self in saying that you two have singlehandedly made this forum a place that I try to avoid. If that was your goal you are doing a good job.

 

What is it you guys are trying to do? Prove that the other is wrong? Please do that in PMs, if you are trying to prove something to the rest of the forum members maybe we can start a poll and see if they are interested in your proofs before you guys continue.

 

I am sorry if this is harsh but I am sick of this.

[Sasun]

Azat, I can understand your feelings, and I have recently considered packing and leaving this place altogether because people can accuse and defame an innocent person and make it look like they are heros exposing crimes. Domino and Boghos have brought all sorts of criminal, moral, and whatever, charges against an individual. Furthermore, Domino believes that he can expose a criminal, and he is going to do that by all means. Someone who brings such charges should have the responsibility to prove it. If not then I call that a fraud itself. I don't think anyone would be happy to be accused of grave crimes. So if HyeForum is the place to make accusations, it should be the place also to backup such charges with facts. If not, then such accusations should not be allowed. In my eyes, a rampant abuse of so called freedom of speech is going on. Let me make an example, suppose a person is accused of raping his mother, killing his father, and defrauding his neighbors, there are no court rulings, nothing, just talk on the internet. Can this be considered freedom of speech and posted on HyeForum? If so, then the posters who are convinced of that have the responsibility to back up, because by their claims they are doing a great moral damage to the person accused.

[ED]

Sasun jan, Azat is talking about taist and I think I can speak for majority of forumers about this conduct, arguments such us this. drives people away, you must realize sensitivity of the topic at hand. However you, Boghos, Domino any many others are valuable members of this forum you should concentrate your energy and efforts like I would like to see, that’s for the benefit of the Armenian nation and her well being. More ever as this conversation grows I don’t see one convincing the other side, and continuation of it simply is going to create partition among members and give rise to farther speculations, arguments, and childish remarks among some. You all may have a lot in common, who knows? Yet you all are engaged in an argument which leads to no where!!

So it’s about time you all drop this issue and find way to move on.

Edited October 25, 2004 by Edward

[Armen]

I think Sasun (and everyone else) has the right to post on the topics of his personal faith and defend them. I never saw Sasun defamating anyones any idea. And he rightfully expects the same attitude towards himself.

We all have common sense and we can identify valuable information. Scepicism is not a panacea from everything. There are always the sceptics of the sceptics.

[Stormig]

While I don't see the point of dwelling on whether Chinmoy can lift weights or not and whether this is a justified belief or not, it is one thing for an individual to believe in something and expect respect therefore and another to set out at cleaning up another person's name. Sasun going around "this is an innocent person" is not right any more than it is for someone to shout out that he's guilty in the judicial sense. Convictions are another matter. I, too, have felt strongly about people myself, but I've never tried to whitewash. Those that know me can attest to that.

Either way, I don't care. It could be Chinmoy or Robert Downey, Jr., for all it's worth.

[DominO123]

So wait a minute, what are you saying. Is this photo real or forged? Is there a lift or not in this picture? Weren't you saying this photo was forged? You are just having a pointless argument. The photo was forged, but then oh no, I can't see anything in that photo... if you can't see anything, then how can you claim that it was forged? Let's be honest here, will you clarify what is your claim? You are giving me the email, have you asked yourself? What is the claim now - is the photo forged or not? If I contact and find out that this photo was not forged, or that man has nothing to do with this photo, it would not make any differencfe, you will claim that you can't see anything in that photo. So I ask you again - what is your accusation? And stick to your accusation, I don't have a lot of time to waste.

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Yes! I said this photo was forged, donb't try this trick of: "Havn't you..." I'm not a kid and don't try to play the lawyer. you are very bad at that. I am telling you that even after a forgery we still don't see anything in that picture. I told you to contact the authors of the photos, and I even gave you the email address of one of them.

[DominO123]

It is actually the opposite. When two people claim opposite things, then material evidence is used to determine the truth. Because people can lie but material evidence will never lie. The author of the photo can lie, but the photo will not lie. That is why there are sophisiticated technologies to determine the authenticity of a photo, or whether or not it has been touched.

If the photographer claims that he has forged the photo, and the opposite side claims that is not the case, everyone has a reason to suspect and ask him how, in what way has he forged, and ask him to produce the original negative of the photo to convince them. Or, they can simply use advanced technology to find out if the photo is indeed forged, it is not that hard in this age. A photographer's verbal testimony has no more power than a non-photographer's verbal testimony.

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BS. The one taking the pictures has the copyright on the pictures, it is his works, and if the one that took the picture claim that he forged his own pictures, the materials are questioned. You are making this a cases of contradiction between two party, this IS NOT SO. One of the parties IS the autor of the pictures.

 

Beside that, there has been many forgeries with pictures that have passed the test of what you call "advanced technology." There are many ways of forging pictures, just by changing the angle of shut, you can make believe an object is lifted without even needing to retouch it... there are other special effects used when developping pictures by using lens to modify the center image etc... have you ever devlopped a negative? Because if you have done that you won't claim what you have claimed.

 

Beside that, Chinmoy himself forged autotentifications by including names of people that have never signed those autentifications.

 

Bill Clark himself admit having doctored the certificates of autentification. Ernie Frantz the one signing the autentification of the 3081.75 lbs lift admit the forgey.

 

Here a repost of what he has to say.

 

 

The 7,000 lbs lift that never was

 

Written by a former photographer for the Centre

 

I JOINED SRI CHINMOY'S ORGANIZATION IN 1972, AND LEFT IN 1989. I

JOINED AT THE AGE OF 20, A RESPONSIBLE ADULT. I WAS AT COLLEGE IN

LONDON, AND AT THE TAIL END OF SOME SERIOUS RECREATIONAL DRUG USE. IT

WAS ALSO A TIME WHEN EASTERN RELIGIONS WERE THE RAGE, AND IT

INTERSECTED CONVENIENTLY WITH MY DESIRE TO MOVE ON TO SOMETHING NEW

AND UPLIFTING. LIKE MANY OF MY PEERS IN THE GROUP, WHAT STARTED OUT AS

A REFRESHING EXPERIENCE SOON TURNED INTO A CATCH 22 LIFE, WHERE

SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF CREATED A MENTAL VORTEX THAT WAS HARD IF NOT

IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO ESCAPE. ON THE ONE HAND, WE HAD TAKEN A STEP AWAY

FROM OUR PREVIOUS LIVES, THAT REQUIRED US TO ACCEPT THAT THE DOUBTING

INTELLECT WAS THE PROBLEM, FOR WHICH THE ANSWER WAS TOTAL ACCEPTANCE

OF THE ILLOGICAL.... SO THAT IN SPITE OF A NAGGING DISBELIEF IN WHAT

WE WERE LED TO BELIEVE. WE COULD ONLY ASSUME THAT THERE WAS SOME

INTERNAL LOGIC THAT WE COULD AND WOULD SOON GRASP. I SPENT FROM 1972

TO 1983 IN ENGLAND, AND I THEN CAME TO THE UNITED STATES AT THAT TIME

I STARTED TO BE ASKED BY CHINMOY TO DO VARIOUS ART PROJECTS MOSTLY

DECORATIVE..IN SERVICE OF HIS VARIOUS ENTERTAINMENTS. BUT WHEN IN

ABOUT 1985 HE STARTED LIFTING WEIGHTS, HE DECIDED TO USE PHOTOGRAPHS

OF HIMSELF DOING `SUPERHUMAN FEATS' OF STRENGTH, AS YET ANOTHER VECTOR

OF HIS DRIVE FOR PUBLICITY, FOR WHICH HE HAD AN INSATIABLE APPETITE.

IF HE DID NOT SUCCEED IN LIFTING THESE RECORD AMOUNTS OF WEIGHT, IT

WAS NOT FOR LACK OF TRYING, INDEED HE DID LEGITIMATELY SUPPORT FAIRLY

IMPRESSIVE AMOUNTS OF WEIGHT FOR A MAN OF HIS AGE; HE WOULD STRUGGLE,

FOR EXAMPLE, WITH TWO HANDS TO GET A 100 POUND DUMBELL ABOVE HIS HEAD,

AND THEN HOLD IT BRIEFLY ALOFT WITH ONE HAND. SOON I WAS ASKED TO COME

TO HIS HOUSE, WHERE HE WOULD INDICATE FOR ME TO DRAW CLOSER TO

HIM...`Good Boy' HE WOULD SAY( I AM PARAPHRASING HERE) ,` IS IT NOT

POSSIBLE TO MAKE THIS THIS LITTLE PIECE OF THE MACHINE LOWER? YOU CAN

SEE IT IS ALREADY LIFTED....BUT FOR THE PRESS?.............SO THAT

THEY CAN SEE CLEARLY???'.... WELL, HE STARTED ASKING ME TO DOCTOR THE

PHOTOGRAPHS OF HIS LIFTS MORE AND MORE TO MAKE IT APPEAR AS THOUGH HE

HAD LIFTED HIGHER AND MORE IMPRESSIVELY THAN HE ACTUALLY HAD. BECAUSE

OF THE FACT THAT THE WEIGHTS HE WAS TRYING TO LIFT WITH ONE ARM BEGAN

TO GET PROGRESSIVELY MORE UNREALISTIC.. AND INCREASING EXPONENTIALLY,

I WOULD HAVE TO AIRBRUSH IN.. OR OUT, BITS OF APPERATUS AND ADD

SHADOWS WHERE THERE WERE NONE, GIVING THE ILLUSION OF A LIFT

EVENTUALLY I WOULD WORK MORE AND MORE CLOSELY WITH THE

PHOTOGRAPHERS....UNTIL I BECAME, MYSELF, ONE OF SEVERAL PHOTOGRAPHERS.

AS THE WEIGHTS INCREASED I NO LONGER HAD TO AIRBRUSH. AS PHOTOGRAPHERS

WE LEARNED HOW TO MAKE IT LOOK AS IF WEIGHTS HAD BEEN LIFTED. WE WOULD

SHOOT FROM A LOW VANTAGE POINT SO AS TO MAKE IT LOOK AS THOUGH THE

WEIGHTS HAD BEEN SLIGHTLY ROLLED UP THE BEND ON WHICH THE WEIGHT WAS

CRADLED. NOW THE STORY OF THE 7,OOO POUND LIFT THAT NEVER WAS......

AND THE TURNING POINT FOR ME.. NO MORE DENIAL. THAT DAY, ( I CANT

REMEMBER IF IT WAS DAY OR NIGHT?), ABOUT 15 PEOPLE WERE SUMMONED TO

HIS HOUSE..

 

INCLUDING A HANDFUL OF PHOTOGRAPHERS. ON THIS OCCASION I WAS JUST A

WITNESS AND NOT A PHOTOGRAPHER. THE APPARATUS, A METAL FRAME WITH TWO

U-BENDS CRADLING THE WEIGHT AT SHOULDER HEIGHT STOOD THERE. THE

BUILDERS OF THIS WELDED MONSTER WERE SCURRYING AROUND CHECKING THE

FLOOR FROM THE BASEMENT WHICH HAD BEEN REINFORCED WITH STANDING METAL

BEAMS.

 

BARE IN MIND NOW THAT SRI CHINMOY HAD SAID ON AT LEAST ONE OCCASION,

THAT HIS FEATS OF STRENGTH ON EARTH WERE AS NOTHING COMPARED WITH WHAT

HE WAS DOING IN THE INNER WORLD....

 

SO SRI CHINMOY STOOD UP, WALKED AROUND THE WEIGHT, ROLLED HIS EYES IN

MEDITATIVE REVERIE....THEN TOOK HIS GRIP ON THE BAR. HE CRIED OUT, HIS

FACE TURNED RED.. ALL THE DRAMA OF GENUINE EFFORT, EXCEPT THAT THE

WEIGHT DID NOT BUDGE, DID NOT EVEN TREMBLE, IT WAS AS IMMOVEABLE AS

EXCALIBER. SHORTLY WE WERE WATCHING THE VIDEO TAPE. SRI CHINMOY WAS

THRILLED.....AS HE PLAYED IT AT THE APPROPRIATE MOMENT, HE GLEEFULLY

SHOUTED "THERE! DID YOU SEE?!'. CAME A DEAFENING SILENCE, AND THE TAPE

WAS REPLAYED. `LOOK! DID YOU SEE?!' THIS TIME RANx AND A FEW OTHER OF

THE GIRLS, POSSIBLY A FEW BOYS TOO, ENTHUSIASTICALLY AGREED, YES,

THERE HAD BEEN A LIFT. THEN THE VIDEO TAPE WAS PLAYED AGAIN AND A FEW

MORE PEOPLE WERE WON OVER. THEN AGAIN AND AGAIN. EVENTUALLY SRI

CHINMOY WAS REDUCED TO ACTUALLY EYEBALLING INDIVIDUALS, ALL BUT

PLEADING FOR THEM TO COME ACROSS. IT WAS ACTUALLY QUITE

SWEET/PATHETIC. TALK ABOUT RETAIL POLITICS! THIS ACCOUNT CAN BE

SUBSTANTIATED BY ANY ONE OF THESE PEOPLE...YOGALOY, A YOUNG MAN FROM

CALIFORNIA WHO LEFT SOON AFTER ME WAS THERE.

 

ANYWAY, IT WAS NOT LONG AFTER THAT I TOLD HIM I WAS LEAVING, HE ASKED

ME TO GIVE HIM A MONTH IN ORDER TO TRY TO PERSUADE ME TO STAY....TO

LEAVE WAS THE SAME AS SUICIDE HE TOLD ME. THERE FOLLOWED A MONTH OF

FLATTERING ATTENTION.. TENNIS WITH THE MASTER EVERY MORNING,

INVITATIONS TO ALL THE HOTTEST EVENTS. THE MASTERS CHARM AND SWEETEST

PERSUASION. TO NO AVAIL THOUGH, I WANTED TO ROMANCE THE BEAST - REAL

 

LIFE!

 

Testimonial from Ernie who issued the certificate for the 3,000lbs

lift:

 

I have written to the man who issued the certificate for one of his

heavy lifts.

 

Here is the information on the certificate:

 

AMERICAN POWERLIFTING FEDERATION

 

This is to certify that Sri Chinmoy is a world record holder

 

Lift: One Arm Support

 

Weight: 3081.75 lbs

 

Weight class: 165 lbs

 

Category: Feats of Strength

 

Age Group: 55-59

 

Date 1-20-87

 

and signed by CHAIRMAN (it appears to be) Ernie Frantz.

 

Comments on the 3,000lbs lift by Ernie:

 

HE SHOULD NOT USE MY NAME AS REFERENCE, HE HAS ALWAYS CLAIMED THE

 

SAME WITH ME, WITH NO PROOF, ONE TIME I REQUESTED TO BE PRESENT WHEN

 

HE DID ALL THESE THINGS, BUT HE SAID HE CAN ONLY DO THIS WHEN HE

 

MEDITATES, AND THAT MAY BE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. I FEEL THAT HE

 

IS A PHONY.

Edited October 25, 2004 by Fadix

[Ludwig9]

That's what people said when they executed Jesus.

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Not, really Sri Chinmoy had sex with his followers for "spiritual enlightenment".

[Sasun]

Yes! I said this photo was forged, donb't try this trick of: "Havn't you..." I'm not a kid and don't try to play the lawyer. you are very bad at that. I am telling you that even after a forgery we still don't see anything in that picture. I told you to contact the authors of the photos, and I even gave you the email address of one of them.

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OK, so at least I know now what the claim is. To me, on the close up photo, there is a lift of 1 or 2 inches. But you are claiming it is not visible. I would ask you to be consistent and honest. It seems to me that whatever I say you will say "no", and that makes any argument with you pointless. If I can prove that the photo is not forged, you will claim that it is not visible - either way you are proving me wrong, so it doesn't make sense that I contact the photographer.

[Sasun]

Not, really Sri Chinmoy had sex with his followers for "spiritual enlightenment".

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It is a lie. You don't see my point, the same way Jesus was accused of things that he didn't do. That is my point. Someone uninformed will believe it, but it is a disgusting lie. That is why they don't want to sue in the court, there is no way to prove things that did not happen.

[DominO123]

I will stop because I respect the members of this board, and this board itself... from exprience I know that you will continue until the person with whom you are discussing with shut up. And this is exactly what I will be doing.

 

You know, one of the qualities it takes to be a good mod is to know when it is time to shut up because the border was crossed. I do not have this quality, but contrary to you I know I don't have it.

 

I will conclude by requoting something from the other article.

 

The professor at UFPR Victor Eduardo Silva Bento, doctor of

psychoanalysis for the University of Paris, explained that these

reactions correspond to the three psychic structures (make ups) of

Freudian man. According to Bento, the one saying "It's not possible

that it is true", is the neurotic; the one who doesn't want to hear

is psychotic; and the one who justifies the actions as the master's

right is perverse." The perverse is the one who tries to de-rail

reality. He admits that it is true, but a legitimate truth by another

law, the master is a god", he said.

 

You remembered me why I had trouble swallowing when someone tells me he is(or knows) someone that is enlighned... so I guess I have to thank you for this.

[Sasun]

There are a few things that can be easily verified without spending a lot of time and resources. Here is one of the things I did. This page from www.chinmoycult.com from which Domino has been quoting says:

 

"The following book is available at any major bookstore including Amazon.com.

 

In the book The Joy of Sects : A Spirited Guide to the World's Religious Traditions -- by Peter Occhiogrosso; Cites the reason that the great jazz guitarist John McLaughlin left Sri Chinmoy was that Chinmoy had made sexual overtures toward McLaughlin's wife."

 

And a little down the same page

"When I left the Chinmoy Centre I found this book at the bookstore, and I wanted to verify the information, so I tracked down the author who lives in Woodstock NY. He said that the information was true and that he had spoken to McLaughlin."

 

Since McLaughlin is a well known musician, and the alleged saying was from an actual book rather than internet gossip, I decided to have the benefit of doubt, and actually went to Amazon.com and bought the book. I turned to page 67 only to find out that McLaughlin says absolutely NOTHING! I thought perhaps it is on another page, but the index shows McLaughlin's name only on page 67. Such a cheap lie, but eleven bucks spent was worth it as the book is really a good book judging from a few pages that I read.

 

Is it fair to conclude that this webiste is a hoax, and the authors are cheap manipulators? If they can lie something as easy to catch, imagine what kind of lies they can tell in stories whose authors are either anonymous or use names that practically mean nothing.

 

I am attaching a photo of the page for reality check. As you can see, there is talk about accusations, and this is all it says. Nothing new, and definitely nothing that McLaughlin says.

 

A Minor Note: the book says Sri Chinmoy teaches Kundalini Yoga, that is not accurate. He has written a book on Kundalini which could have been the reason of confusion. Sri Chinmoy teaches something quite different - Bhakti Yoga, which basically means the yoga of Divine Worship.

Edited October 26, 2004 by Sasun