We Remember The September 11th

[Rubo]

To Thoth and others

Human worth and American paradigms

 

American attitudes towards human worth are equitable of what profession you choose to pursue and how much material advantage you are accumulating. I will bring a personal example to illustrate my point.

My father had a severe accident at work many years ego working as a machinist and he almost lost his arm. His work compensation was pittance few thousand dollars and had my father been a lawyer, a doctor, an engineer, a banker his compensation would have been in hundred thousands. My father often repaired or worked on airplane parts and his quality of work was responsible for thousands of lives saved due to defect free airplane. My father was no less of a human being but the occupation paradigms that society placed on him determined his worth. I am an artist therefore in American society I am often referred as “liberal” worthless entity.

This is the heart of the arrogance Americans display to the world. We say Panamanians, Guatemalans, Mexicans, Chinese, Indians, Turks, Armenians, Iraqis, Palestinians in short all third world countries are like my father worthless and do deserve to be exploited and when needed to kill as a collateral damage. It is imperative to understand the reality as organic whole instead of subdivided elitists club.

[THOTH]

Rubo -

 

I don't at all disagree with your last statement (actually 2 above in the time it has taken me to post this. And even your last statement is true for many in the US - and probably elsewhere in the world too - but yu have a huge blindspot if you think that these type of peopla are the only type here and that these views are the only ones held by this/my great nation). However - war and the war environment often change they way nations and people make judgements on these issues - rightly or wrongly - it just does. There are very legitimate reasons to oppose Hussein in Iraq - both for the things he has done (funny Tigrannes, but blaming Kuwait for being invaded by Iraq strikes me much as Turks blaming Armenians for the Genocide...) and for the things he is capable of doing. Like it or not - as it stands now - the oil must flow - and sometimes decisions might be made and actions taken that seem harsh and such - but the consequences of chaos - of letting these very disruptive and nasty tyrants to have their way - is just unacceptable. Granted the US (and other western nations) should be doing much more (understatement) to explore and transition to alternative energies (alternative to oil) - and this is a severe shortcomming of policy/insight - IMO. But in the meanwhile - our Western economies (and the world economy) would essentially collapse if the supply was seriously disrupted (its like the Spice in Dune). And I would guesss that there would be untold human misery resulting form this - but who knows - maybe it would do us all some good....but are you willing to sacrifice...and for your children and theirs to also not live with the comforts etc that we are used to today...somehow I think not.

 

But back to this idea of considering the human element. Though it may not seem - from the rhetoric - I assure you that the human suffering is factored (perhaps not as much as it ideally should be - but much more than you might imagine)...I mean look even at the recent campaign in Afghanistan - the US has done a great deal to provide for those (non-American) people - and arguably always has in any war or such that we have been inviolved in. That being said I agree with Tigrannes that we caused great misery in Vietnam for perhaps all the wrong reasons (though opposing both communism and radical Islam are morally correct postions IMO) - but Vietnam was not just that I agree - and was more about corporate greed, pride and stupidity. As for Iraq - well I vigourously oppose invasion at this time - under these circumstances - though I certainly see the need (value) in eliminating Saddaam - and again I believe he is a dangerous tyrant - who has made the Iraqi people suffer and he threatens general peace and prosperity and perhaps even our Western way of life (if he were to truly obtain a stranglehold over oil). I even take some of this one step further (as I did in 91/92 - and say - it is way overdo for a Kurdish State (Turkey be damned!) - I mean comon now. I see no reason why Iraq should not be parcled (though again geopolitic concerns of countrerweigt to Iran still comes to play...or at least the idea of limitiing Iranian influence...anmd perhaps I can understand the latter more then the former). But in all of this - though it may seem and probably in many cases does take a back seat - I believe that the human concern (even over non-American lives) always plays a factor - in fact I know that it does. Its just when you are at war - you think of your own first - this is natural - and certain politicians in Generals also speak in ways to give the impression that the US only cares about its own - and this is not true - I actually think that our actions (not words) speak for themselves in this regard.

 

[ September 12, 2002, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[Rubo]

] but the consequences of chaos - of letting these very disruptive and nasty tyrants to have their way - is just unacceptable.

 

[/bDear Thoth was it acceptable to US when the very same nasty tyrant was gassing his own people to death and we did nothing! The answer is Sadam was on CIA payroll then fighting the Iranians.

 

Granted the US (and other western nations) should be doing much more (understatement) to explore and transition to alternative energies (alternative to oil) - and this is a severe shortcomming of policy/insight - IMO. But in the meanwhile - our Western economies (and the world economy) would essentially collapse if the supply was seriously disrupted (its like the Spice in Dune). And I would guesss that there would be untold human misery resulting form this - but who knows - maybe it would do us all some good....but are you willing to sacrifice...and for your children and theirs to also not live with the comforts etc that we are used to today...somehow I think not.

You are detracted on this one. World oil supplies are in firm secure Uncle Sam hands. The threat was eliminated during the gulf war.

 

But back to this idea of considering the human element. Though it may not seem - from the rhetoric - I assure you that the human suffering is factored (perhaps not as much as it ideally should be - but much more than you might imagine)...I mean look even at the recent campaign in Afghanistan -

 

Most likely, the United States would eventually be victorious in a war against Iraq, but it would come at an enormous cost. It would be a mistake, for example, to think that defeating Iraq would result in as few Americans casualties as occurred in driving the Taliban militia from Kabul. Though Iraq’s offensive capabilities have been severely weakened by the bombings, its defensive military capabilities are still strong.

Nor would a military victory today be as easy as during the Gulf War. Prior to the launching of Operation Desert Storm, when the Iraqis figured out the extent of the forces being deployed against them, they decided not to put up a fight for Kuwait and relied mostly on young conscripts from minority communities. Only two of the eight divisions of the elite Republican Guard were ever in Kuwait, and they pulled back before the war began in mid-January. The vast majority of Iraq’s strongest forces were withdrawn to areas around Baghdad to fight for the survival of the regime itself, and they remain there to this day. In the event of war, defections from these units are not likely.

There are close to one million members of the Iraqi elite who have a vested interest in the regime’s survival. These include the Baath Party leadership and its supporters, security and intelligence personnel, and core elements of the armed forces and their extended families. Furthermore, Iraq—a largely urban society—has a far more sophisticated infrastructure than does the largely rural and tribal Afghanistan that could be mobilized in the event of a foreign invasion.

Nor is there an equivalent to Afghanistan’s Northern Alliance, which did the bulk of the ground fighting against the Taliban. The Kurds, after being abandoned twice in recent history by the United States, are unlikely to fight beyond securing autonomy for Kurdish areas. The armed Shiite opposition has largely been eliminated, and it too would be unlikely to fight beyond liberating the majority Shiite sections of southern Iraq. The U.S. would be reluctant to support either, given that their successes could potentially fragment the country and would encourage both rebellious Kurds in southeastern Turkey and restive Shiites in northeastern Saudi Arabia. U.S. forces would have to march on Baghdad, a city of over five million people, virtually alone. Unlike the Gulf War, which involved conventional and open combat where U.S. forces could excel and take full advantage of their firepower and technological superiority, U.S. soldiers would have to fight their way through heavily populated agricultural and urban lands. Invading forces would be faced with bitter, house-to-house fighting in a country larger than South Vietnam. Iraqis, who may have had little stomach to fight to maintain their country’s conquest of Kuwait, would be far more willing to sacrifice themselves to resist a foreign, Western invader. To minimize American casualties in the face of such stiff resistance, which would largely come from within crowded urban areas, the United States would likely engage in heavy bombing of Iraqi residential neighborhoods, resulting in very high civilian casualties.

Regards

[Accelerated]

Yes indeed, very similar. Also, just recently there was a revelation about a Japanese sub being sunk some hours before the attack, yet no alarm was raised, draw your own conclusions.......

 

Yes, American lives. A few months a ago an American transport helicopter crashed in a latin American country (I think it was Columbia). There was a group of about 15 passengers on board (5 of whom were US), and all died. I believe CNN was interviewing an American war veteran on the topic, and he sais something along the lines of "...yes its a great tragedy that 5 people died...". Of course the locals were not people...

 

That may be so, but he was elected by his people, thats a pillar of democracy isnt it? free and fair elections, not a tyranical leadership imposed by the US (eg, Chili, Indonesia...). btw. I also believe it was our frind Ho that stopped Pol Pots genocide in Cambodia, NOT the US.

 

The many ethnicities that make the US dont share anything, except for a piece fo paper (citizenship), and thats not much. The only two unifying factors are the flag and materialism, nothing more

 

I am not surprised that no one has mentioned the role of the Red Army in Japans surrender. Days after the second bomb the Red Army attacked the 1.2 million strong Japanese Army in Manchuria, and wiped it out in two weeks. That was the ultimate event before Japanese surrender.

 

US casualties at Pearl Harbor: several thousand soldiers

Japanese casualties from A-bomb: over 2 hundred thousand civilians

[Sip]

You are VERY wrong dear Jug. There is a bond that runs deeper than you can imagine. I know to the rest of the world this place seems like a hosh posh of a bunch of different people but once you are an American, you are trully at home! Of course there are ALWAYS exceptions ... of course if you look like Osama Bin Laden, somebody is going to kick your ASS on the street ... I didn't say these are necessarily the brightest people in the world!!!

 

But in no other country have I felt as "at home" as I feel in the US ... Even with my freaky name "Sip" and my strange accent and hairy chest, "they" trully treat me as one of their own ... if my car is broken down at the side of the road (or off the road and it HAS happened ) MOST would not hesitate a second before jumping to my help. I took the bus for 2 years 4 hours each day to and from school ... the mix of people that get on a public bus and sit next to each other is just unimaginable! Anywhere else, they would be at each other's throats in seconds ... Where is this coming from? I don't know but I can tell you it is there and it is pretty amazing ... and it's definitely a lot more than just on paper.

 

I don't know if you have ever been to Los Angeles but it is trully an astonishing place ... no two people are alike yet the majority seem to get along just fine. But go to "Glendale" and you got Armenians shooting each other in the back

 

Maybe it is because of the wealth and the money (the poorer areas are sure different) but never the less, it aint NOTHING like even the richest parts of Europe.

 

[ September 12, 2002, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Accelerated]

I very much doubt it.

 

I see, the same closeness might explain why the three aircraft that crashed into the World Trade Centre and Pentagon, were highjacked using small knives and no one stood up to them, heroism indeed.

 

The explanation is very simple....they got better things to do than be at each others throats ie. earn money. The US gives this opportunity and a high standard of living, but what will happen when there is an economic downturn, the opportunities disapear and so does the peoples wealth?

[TigrannesIII]

when i was broken down on the I at the end of July, even the cops drove right by.....

[Azat]

Well lets see. Anyone who invested most of their money in NASDAQ lost over 75% of their wealth, yet it is still a very peaceful place in the states. And you know what, Americans will be the first to recover from ANY economic downturn because our laws are set such that they give individuals the ability to do/perform their best unlike any other country in the world. You seem not to know what you are talking about this country Juggs and I am not kidding.

 

As for your other comments about the 3 planes and no one did anything is all crap. Not worth answering.

[Azat]

They probably could tell that you hate all Americans.

[TigrannesIII]

about that 'bond' between Americans, and people being willing to help- I'd say that in general Americans are easier to approach if you need directions, etc. However, they dont make the best of friends, as has been my experience.

[TigrannesIII]

maaan, meet me in real life i'm the nicest guy you'll ever meet

[Azat]

I do not doubt that for a sec. You are just a young kid who is trying to find him place in life and world. Just like my bud Juggs who is crazy enough to be taking a class in Circuit analysis.

[Azat]

I would somewhat disagree with you on this as well. My 4 best friends are: 1 Armo whom I have known for ever. 2. 2-3 rd generation Danish American. 3. 1000000000th generation Germanic American. and a 3-4th generation Chinese American and I have known these people forever and consider them a genuine best friends and would have no problem going to one or the other for anything in my life. The only difference is that outside of my Armenian friend all the others can't hold their drinks as well as we can.

[TigrannesIII]

we can definitely hold the liquor much better

i really dont have 'best' friends, but if i ever got into a fight, the five people i trust most to jump in with me are all Armenians.

[Sip]

Assuming you already aren't fighting with 5 or 10 other "Armenians"

[Accelerated]

Really? I guess thats why America was the first country to recover from the great depression. As for the laws, I am sure you are aware of WorldCom, Enron, ArthurAnderson etc, nuff said.

 

Reading history is a hobby of mine, and I am 3/4 of my way through a Business (double degree Bus+Eng), so I may not be a professor, but I certainly aint pullen stuff out of my a$$.

 

Why is it crap? Its the truth, in the US (and these days unfortunatelly the rest of the 'developed' world) everyone only thinks for themselves.

 

I think at 21, I am a young adult! . As for Circuit Analysis, I had no choice .

[THOTH]

Azat - you pee well! - good job...

[bellthecat]

What definition? I was asking a question - a question you did not answer.

 

Might I add that it is a good thing for America that most of what the world sees about America is based on Hollywood's propaganda version. If the world knew the truth about the average American's views they would be sick.

 

The only good thing to come out of "9/11" is that the world is now beginning to know the truth about America. And maybe even Americans are at last starting to know the truth about America.

 

On a lighter note: have a listen to this :-)

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/comedy/rams/nowshow.ram

 

Skip forward 24 minutes to the song about Bush and his daddy.

[THOTH]

Why should you care? Well does their nationality really matter? (and in fact many were not Americans but came from all over). By asking this question (which very much sounds like a rhetorical one I might add)..yu are demonstrating the very type of atttitude you accuse Americans of.

 

OK I admit - most Americans pretty much live in isolation from the rest of the world - and neither understand nor care. This is a great luxury don't you think? LOL. At the same time of course no nation is onto the business of every other nation in the world as the US is. (and many of these people do know quite abit about things international...though many also don't but think they do). All in all though I think America (acting in its own interests and in accord to its ideals [sometimes these cvorrespond and at times they don't) is overwhelmingly a good force in the world - at least when compared to alternatives.) Sure we are #1 big guy and many will hate/dislki/be jealous of this for that fact - and certainly we have had our share of screw ups/dirty deeds & worse...but bottom line - we are not really so bad or different from anyone else - on the whole. We are a target all right - for many reasons (and many desrved I'll admit) - but what other nation would you truly trust in our position? (OK, New Zealand...but they have more sheep then people and that makes me suspicious....any others?)

 

And as for the ignorance of Americans - well true (to a degree) - and agina this is a luxery (and one we are often thankful for - LOLl- the rest of the world - or muchof it - is awful f*cked up at times - don't you think?) And - at the same time this ignorant American thing is a bit overated I think. I mean I was just in Italy and talked quite a bit with various Italians (OK perhaps sweet, young, innocent, big boobed ones aren't the greatest cross section...) - but I vcan tell you - I didn't find that they seemed much more aware of things outside their immediate neighborhood then the average American (and none seemed to have ever even heard of Armenian/Armenians...etc...my standard guage of historical/international awareness....)

[Accelerated]

I am doing a 'double-degree' ie. when I graduate I will get two Bachelor degrees, one Engineering and one Business. Since Im doing a Telecoms major in Engineering I have to do Circuit.

 

Well, maybe if there was less greed and selfishness in this world, there would not be any need for donations....

 

Naturally, not many multi-national companies are based in Australia, and as you pointed out most are based in the States. These companies employ millions around the world, but their operations are recorded as part of the US GDP, hence the imbalance

 

Being a small country our inflation rate is more volatile than that of the US. Our Reserve Bank aims to keep the rate between 2-3% (and is successful most of the time), the 4.5% figure was a spike because the new GST (Goods and Services Tax) had just been introduced. Also, currently Australia has the highest economic growth than ANY other developed country.

[Azat]

How long is the whole thing going to take? When do you get time to goofe off? Are you going to get a masters after in one or the other?

[Accelerated]

The whole thing is 5 years (including 6 months work experience). A standard engineering course though is also 5 years (but 12 months work experience). So, I thought I should give myself a little flexibility by doing Eng/Bus. Also I am very aware of the fact that most people make more money from their investments than their work, hence a Business Degree would always be handy.

 

I've been very lazy since I've left school (3 years now), so even though my course is pretty hard core, I always find time for other things.

 

Dont be stupid, I'd kill to get out of uni, and also my grades wont allow me, I probably wont even get honours . I might do masters later on, if I want to specialise in somethin, but not coming back to uni for at least a few years after graduation.

[Azat]

Oh for sure take at least a year off. I went straight without any time off and I feel it was a mistake. Work/life experience helps in the Masters program.

 

Also the Business background will allow you to get in to management much faster in your field.

 

Good luck.

 

Edit note: my fingers type much too slow. or we need a spell checker here

 

[ September 14, 2002, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Azat ]

[Sip]

For Business/Management Azat is right ... experience is a BIG plus. At UCLA's Anderson School of Management which is one of the top in the US, I think I read that the average student age in the MBA program was 33 years with 7 years of real work experience (I think 5 years management)!

 

HOWEVER ... for technical fields such as Math, Computer Science, Engineering, etc, do is ASAP ... it becomes exponentially more difficult as time goes on. After my BS, the Masters took me about a year. If I had waited, who knows how long that would take! Most people don't come back after several years (very understandable) and even if they do, they end up having to relearn everything. Now Ph.D. is a completely different story though.

[Azat]

Hey Juggernaut, you should read the autobiography by Michael Bloomberg called Bloomberg by Bloomberg. He too was a C student with a double major in Business and Engineering. He is now the mayor of NY but he is/(maybe was) the CEO of Bloomberg and is a multi billionaire. Very interesting book.

 

Sip, I completely agree with you about masters for sci majors vs business and art majors.