MosJan Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 We Remember September 11thWe pause to remember the victims, their families, and all of the heroes of September 11th MOvses [ September 11, 2002, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Garo ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Why should I care about some dead Americans when Americans are incapable of caring about the living if they live outside America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:Why should I care about some dead Americans when Americans are incapable of caring about the living if they live outside America.Because they weren't just Americans in that building. Maybe you would like to mourn only the loss of the Japanese? How about the Germans? I'm sure there were quite a few of them in those buildings as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubo Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:Why should I care about some dead Americans when Americans are incapable of caring about the living if they live outside America.It's frustrating that America couldn't care less about the millions of my people that have died, yet I'm expected to stop my life and care about 3000 of their dead. But, I can't help but feel compassion for the families who were directly effected. I do think it's disgusting that Americans sometimes feel that 9/11 is almost as bad as the Holocaust, especially when you consider that America is the country that 1)dropped 2 bombs on Japan (which is like 20 9/11's), 2)screwed over Ho Chi Minh politically, the villified him and ransacked his country, 3)created the situation in Iraq, 4)created the situation in Afghanistan, 5)exacerbates the situation in the Middle East, 6)Overlooks Azerbaijan's association with terrorism, 7)Allies itself with Turkey while demonizing a country like Iran, etc, etc, etc, etc. Sometimes I'm glad that 9/11 so that Americans can feel something like we feel. But at the same time, we have to care- if for no other reason because we're better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:Why should I care about some dead Americans when Americans are incapable of caring about the living if they live outside America.Well by your definition I guess that would make you an American then. BTW - answers to such questions are often not so simple. First of all prove to me that your contention is true - that "Americans" care not for lives outside of America. In some ways I could esily argue the opposite - as compared to say...Scotland - I mean really now - what have the Scotts ever done for anyone...etc...and is that all Americans or just some? Please don't generalize and base your (resentful) views concern myself and others here only based on the record of US politicians, Hollywood or whatever other mass market/tabloid version of America(ns) you are consuming... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:It's frustrating that America couldn't care less about the millions of my people that have died, yet I'm expected to stop my life and care about 3000 of their dead. [/QB]Tigrannes - is it some kind of mental illness that I'm witnessing with you whereby you address and talk about yourself in the third person and don't realize that you are talking about yourself while you do so? I can't figure it out really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by THOTH: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:It's frustrating that America couldn't care less about the millions of my people that have died, yet I'm expected to stop my life and care about 3000 of their dead. Tigrannes - is it some kind of mental illness that I'm witnessing with you whereby you address and talk about yourself in the third person and don't realize that you are talking about yourself while you do so? I can't figure it out really.[/QB]is it some kind of mental illness i'm witnessing whereby you can't understand me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:I do think it's disgusting that Americans sometimes feel that 9/11 is almost as bad as the Holocaust,Where have you heard this. I have only heard it compared to Pearl harbor - which is somewhat appropriate IMO..in a sense. quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:especially when you consider that America is the country that 1)dropped 2 bombs on Japan (which is like 20 9/11's),Did Bin laden save lives by bombing the twin towers? While I may not agree with the decision to bomb Hiroshima and more so even Nagasaki - but I respect that fact that the decisions to bomb these cities were made with deliberate calculation in order - in part - to ssave lives and end a war that had gone on well long enough. And I'm waiting for you to make the case that the US was the agressor in this war...tragedies occured on all sides in this war - caused and suffered by all sides - do not cheapen the sacrifices made by very good people - Americans and otherwise - in the cause of freedom over tyranny... quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:2)screwed over Ho Chi Minh politically, the villified him and ransacked his country, First of all Ho Chi Minn is a commie bastard...enough said. His country? Yes I suppose it is now...unfourtunatly. And yes - we (Americans) made a great many mistakes and miscalculations regarding Vietnam but opposing Ho Chi Minn [and communism] wasn't necessisarly one of them (in and of itself) quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:3)created the situation in Iraq, Perhaps in part yes...but not just us... quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:4)created the situation in Afghanistan,To a much lesser degree. Remember America didn't exist when the Koran was first written... quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:5)exacerbates the situation in the Middle East,Well perhaps guilty as charged...but much was done with good intention. Oh and BTW - are you prepared to ride your bicycle to school when the gas runs out? Chop a few logs to heat your home...and my my what is the world to do without plastic these days... quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:6)Overlooks Azerbaijan's association with terrorism,What of Israel's terrorism...or any American friend/ally? Yes - the process and capability of certain money (oil) and other interests to inluence in the US political system is a less then ideal situation...so when you are elcted (or attempting to be so) will you turn down the cash? (honestly)... quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:7)Allies itself with Turkey while demonizing a country like Iran, etc, etc, etc, etc.Well - at least here we have made the right choice (comparativly)...but that is not to say we shouldn't be pressuring Turkey to do the right thing (regarding Genocide recognition) and clean itself up a bit in regards to rights issues etc. And I agree that we should be making overtures to Iran - seems like it would be easier to cultivate our friends overthere and let the Iranians boot out the lose Mullahs themselves (in time)...then us having to do it for them... quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Sometimes I'm glad that 9/11 so that Americans can feel something like we feel. But at the same time, we have to care- if for no other reason because we're better. To be glad of 9/11 so that other can feel pain and loss (as Armenians do) is a very sick bit of reasoning IMO. And then to claim that you are better then non-ethnic [almost no such thing]or non Armenian decended Americans...well sounds like Turks denegrating Armenians in Ottoman times..or any other racist for that matter...but you're Christian aren't you....that explains it I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubo Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Dear ThuthYour example of comparing Scotland to America is ridicules, really, is there any country on this planet that can be compared to US?Tigrannes was simply trying to say the obvious that 9/11 is a recoiled effect from American policies.Most Americans 80% of the consumer dead beats are total morons when it comes to understanding that our very wealth, our very vain habits such as driving SUV tanks on the streets have price!! It is called the Marshal plan, globalization! New Markets! Spread of democracy! All selectively applied to benefit American stock investments! HELLO whom are we kidding? Are these morons don’t understand that oil has a human price as well! Thousands of Iraqi children dead! Palestinians reduced to begging level? Supporting Turkey wiping out the Kurdish villages with American made weapons, Overlooking Israeli gross human rights violations not mention AG denial policy, Overlooking International LAND mine treaties, refusing to oblige environmental laws! Consuming 25% of the earth resources and pretending nothing is happening to the planet? Yes Americans do piss off lot of people for precisely for their ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 THOTH, THOTH, THOTH..... you are a typical American. Why do you claim to be Armenian again? 1) The way the United States has mourned the hell out of 9/11 is disgusting. That's what I was trying to convey. I was also conveying that Americans are completely oblivious to anyone else's suffering before or after the Holocaust to 9/11/01. 2)Ho Chi Minh was communist- so what?!??! Did you ever think that capitalism doesn't work for all people? Of course you being the typical American dont respect the right of other countries to make their own decisions. Ho Chi Minh was a communist because the French imperialism in the name of capitalism had enslaved his country. Communism was thus the natural antithesis. After the French pulled out America got involved and Vietnam was split into two different spheres of influence (i.e. post WW2 Germany). Ho Chi Minh's group had the north, America the south. The agreement was that after a said period of time, the two countries would be re-unified and there would be an election for the leadership. This happened, Ho Chi Minh won. The king of 'Nam (Bao Dai maybe? I dont remember.) abdicated and gave the power to Ho Chi Minh, calling him the people's choice. America, seeing a communist elected, said 'oh no no no!' and then kept South Vietnam away from North Vietnam. This created the Vietcong, the South Vietnamese who wanted the re-unification they were promised- so, that whole situation was the West's fault, with the brunt of the blame on America's shoulders. Bet you never learned that, huh? That's why Ho Chi Minh was one of the great patriots of the 20th Century. 3)Well, the US did arm Iraq, right? Then when Kuwait started slant-drilling into Iraq, Saddam did go to the world community and say, 'Hey, something's gotta be done.' The US said 'it's an Arab thing'. Next thing you know, US is coming after Saddam. This isn't to say Saddam is a good guy, but he stood up to the US and the US wrongly came after him. People from that part of the world love it when their leader takes a stand against the great satan. That's what keeps guys like Mu'ammar Qaddafi in power. That's why bin Laden is so loved. He's a skinny little guy who's takin a stand- be it a devastating, violent one. 4)I ain't runnin for office. I write myself in at every election, but I'm not campaigning. 5)Who is the US to boot the mullahs? The barsigs put them there themselves. It's a different kind of democratic process if you think about it. Please dont talk about how the US needs to remove someone, especially in a situation like Iran. If you wanna talk about removing a drug lord, that's fine, but not the Persian rulers. 6)I never said I wished pain on them, I was just looking for some kind of a silver lining. I honestly hoped that the light at the end of the tunnel in September 11th would be the United States actually awakening to the rest of the world. Didn't happen. Instead, all I see is commercialized pain. Kinda sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:5)Who is the US to boot the mullahs? The barsigs put them there themselves. It's a different kind of democratic process if you think about it. Please dont talk about how the US needs to remove someone, especially in a situation like Iran. If you wanna talk about removing a drug lord, that's fine, but not the Persian rulers.It's funny ... many Barsiks would completely disagree with you there! What is really strange is that the terrorists really believed they were going to weaken a nation by blowing up those buildings... as I see it, they actually accomplished quite the opposite. I know it is very painful to see for all the US haters out there ... but it is the truth! For better or for worse, this country is much stronger and much more "united" than it was before 9/11 of last year. Don't want to believe me? Fine ... but I saw it with my own eyes. [ September 11, 2002, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Sip ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubo Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 I respect that fact that the decisions to bomb these cities were made with deliberate calculation in order - in part - to save lives and end a war that had gone on well long enough. Aren’t you suckered to believe high school textbook propaganda? Americans were more interested scaring the crap out of the Russians. Cold war had already begun. There was no military merit in dropping the bombs moreover fire bombing the city of Dresden had also no military value. Your statement that bombs were dropped to save lives is preposterous. How is killing thousands of innocent civilians with most torturous barbaric way constitute saving lives. I get it you mean few American soldiers lives? You mean Japanese civilians were paper cut outs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:5)Who is the US to boot the mullahs? The barsigs put them there themselves. It's a different kind of democratic process if you think about it. Please dont talk about how the US needs to remove someone, especially in a situation like Iran. If you wanna talk about removing a drug lord, that's fine, but not the Persian rulers.It's funny ... many Barsiks would completely disagree with you there!I'll concede that point to you since you're from there, but I still think there has to be some significant opposition group that requests US assistance before a zealot like THOTH can start talking about the need for US action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Rubo- you should listen to THOTH go on and on about how the US was justified in expelling the Native American element. Sip- congrats on your victory. It was a close score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Sip- congrats on your victory. It was a close score.Yup! Definitely very close. No matter what goes on in this Forum, I really hope we kick some non-Armenian butt in that league though (Good job to Thoth as well ... now I think I gotta find me a new Tight End ) Oh oh ... what were we talking about again? I think I have become too Americanized ... one mention of Football (the real kind not the sissy stuff they play with their feet ) got me totally distracted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Sip- congrats on your victory. It was a close score.Yup! Definitely very close. No matter what goes on in this Forum, I really hope we kick some non-Armenian butt in that league though (Good job to Thoth as well smilies/thumbup.gif ... now I think I gotta find me a new Tight End ) Oh oh ... what were we talking about again? I think I have become too Americanized ... one mention of Football (the real kind not the sissy stuff they play with their feet smilies/lol.gif ) got me totally distracted.tell me about it, who is everyone to say that US football is for sissies? Rugby players say that 'ooh they use pads' and soccer players say 'ooh, they take off in between plays'. Guess what? The pads are weapons (compare the number of rugby injuries vs. w/'pads' injuries) and the breaks, well..... let's see you throw your body into a 300lb'er and see if you can do that for 5 seconds, let alone 90 minutes..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubo Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 I respect that fact that the decisions to bomb these cities were made with deliberate calculation in order - in part - to save lives and end a war that had gone on well long enough. Thoth the “deliberate calculations” were made but to what end and porpose you will never know therfore it is a unwarranted assumption. The fallacies of presumption also fail to provide adequate reason for believing the truth of their conclusions. In this instance, however, your erroneous reasoning results from an implicit supposition of some further proposition whose truth is uncertain or implausible. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Rubo:Aren’t you suckered to believe high school textbook propaganda? Americans were more interested scaring the crap out of the Russians. Cold war had already begun. There was no military merit in dropping the bombs moreover fire bombing the city of Dresden had also no military value. Your statement that bombs were dropped to save lives is preposterous. How is killing thousands of innocent civilians with most torturous barbaric way constitute saving lives. I get it you mean few American soldiers lives? You mean Japanese civilians were paper cut outs.So should the US allowed the Japanese to continue the killing in Phillipines and the rest of Asia until when? Don't you think that the bomb did stop that? After all the Japanese had killed more than 80,000 Philipinoes and they had no plans to stop. And why shouldn't the US hit a country HARD after they had hit our military in Pearl Harbor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Rubo:In this instance, however, your erroneous reasoning results from an implicit supposition of some further proposition whose truth is uncertain or implausible.Wow Ruben ... that is some sentence!!! I agree with most of what Thoth has said here except for the atomic bomb stuff. I don't think the calculations were too accurate ... and if they were, I don't think ANYTHING would justify the decision they made based on any calculations... So in some sense, I trully hope their calculations were wrong regarding the potential outcomes of the bombing. ... but who knows ... Although I personally highly doubt it, maybe the combined loss of life and devestation would have been greater without those bombs than with them (I think this is what Thoth was getting at but I am not sure). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Rubo - Don't presume to think you know what I know about the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. (I have a feeling that I've read quite a good deal more about these events then most) Please read what I wrote carefully. Yes I believe that "calculations" were made (including some concern for Japanese civilian dead)- which were made agianst the concern for lengthening the war (and additional American, Allied and Japanese deaths) - and the will and capability for the Japanese to resist invasion was not clearly known. Obviously the Russian factor was (a major)part of this calculation (to end the war quickly and to make a post war - anticipation of the old war to follow statement) etc etc - yes yes - all of these things...but if you read what I wrote you will notice that I said that I do not support the decision to drop those bombs...particualry Nagasaki...though i acknowledge that the decision was not such a simple one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigrannesIII Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Azat: quote:Originally posted by Rubo:Aren’t you suckered to believe high school textbook propaganda? Americans were more interested scaring the crap out of the Russians. Cold war had already begun. There was no military merit in dropping the bombs moreover fire bombing the city of Dresden had also no military value. Your statement that bombs were dropped to save lives is preposterous. How is killing thousands of innocent civilians with most torturous barbaric way constitute saving lives. I get it you mean few American soldiers lives? You mean Japanese civilians were paper cut outs.So should the US allowed the Japanese to continue the killing in Phillipines and the rest of Asia until when? Don't you think that the bomb did stop that? After all the Japanese had killed more than 80,000 Philipinoes and they had no plans to stop. And why shouldn't the US hit a country HARD after they had hit our military in Pearl Harbor.Azat, 2 problems:1)The Japanese were already driven out of those areas when the bombs were dropped.2)Pearl Harbor was a military target, not a civilian area. Pearl Harbor was legitimate, just like the Pentagon was for Usama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:Rubo- you should listen to THOTH go on and on about how the US was justified in expelling the Native American element. Sip- congrats on your victory. It was a close score.Tigrannes - somehow I fail to remember stating such a thing - could you referesh my memory concerning what you specifically alledge that I have said here? Also Sip - how do you think Tigrannes is going to feel when he starts the season 0 for 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 nuynpes mianum em voghpali orva hishatakman@. togh vor aydpisi anmardkaynutyun yerpeq chkrknvi, voch mi yerkrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubo Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Dear Thoth and AzatJest of what I am saying can be summarized as this. Human lives should not be looked upon as a disposable commodity and human rights should and must not mean only selectively applied by developed nations to advance their cause. I am yet to read an argument in American papers about “collateral damage” innocent lives lost in possible Iraqi invasion. Ironically what is disturbing that instead of being introspective, analyzing the cause of American hatred and rectifying or lessening the hatred the American public it seems are craving for more blood. Basic empathy is the concept of putting one’s self in the place of the other. I know you have kids and suppose you were born as an Iraqi working in Baghdad as a civilian and your family was wiped out due to “collateral damage”. Think about this don’t rush to answer. How would you feel about imperialism, reckless disregard to human lives? Does the end justify the means? Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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