Rog

Sip, I am not denying that my argument is circular, but I was trying to show that all arguments are based on a starting point if you take it back far enough. Therefore it would seem that all arguments would be called circular. A person who bases their unbelief in God must base that argument on something if you go back far enough. Let me give you a quote: "To deny circularity when it comes to an ultimate authority is to subject oneself to an infinite regress of reasons. If a person holds to a certain view, A, then when A is challenged he appeals to reasons B and C. But, of course, B and C will certainly be challenged as to why they should be accepted, and then the person would have to offer D, E, F, and G, as arguments for B and C. And the process goes on and on. Obviously it has to stop somewhere because an infinite regress of arguments cannot demonstrate the truth of one's conclusions. Thus, every worldview (and every argument) must have an ultimate, unquestioned, self-authenticating starting point." That is the reason why I break the circular chain by stating that my self-authenticating starting point is the Bible. Also, I am arguing for the existence of the Christian God only. The Bible is my starting point. The Bible tells us that God exits, He created the world and He declares His glory in the creation. It is self evident that God exists by looking at the creation around us. There are other arguments that I could use apart from the Bible to prove God's existence, such as: 1) the design and complexity in the universe argue for a creator, 2) the world must have been caused by a supreme being, and 3) the presence of absolute truths, morals, and value only makes sense if God exists. Why do you believe that God does not exist? How do you break your circular argument? I respect those who do not believe in the Christian God. I hope that we can have an honest open dialogue about this without attacking one's character. Roger Psalm 19:1 "The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands."

Arpa, With all due respect, I quoted specifically from the Western Diocese of the Armenian Church of North America on what the Armenian Church believes on salvation. I then contrasted their views with the Bible to show that I do not believe that they are correct in their interpretation on salvation. My life is dedicated as a servant to my Lord Jesus Christ, who died for sinners so that we may have eternal life. I hope and pray that you will come to the knowledge of the Savior. John 3:16, "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Roger

Arvestaked, Don't write me off so quickly. Let me explain my argument a little more. The question in this forum is asked, "Do you believe in God?" If I answered this questions that I believe God exists, therefore God exists, then it would be a pure circular argument and would be illogical. But my argument is that I believe God exists Because the Bible states that God exists, and since the Bible attests to God existing and is the true Words of God, then God exists. I believe my argument is not fallacious because I am being honest with what my ultimate starting point is. I am telling you up front that my basic presupposition (starting point) of arguing is the authority of the Bible and faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I then base my arguments off of that and I showed earlier the arguments from the Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-21) and the world around us as two brief examples for the existence of God. Is not every argument based on some kind of ultimate standard...For example, what are you basing your conclusions on? Some people choose human reason, some here use Dawkins, some use their feelings, anything. Since all arguments have an ultimate starting point, then all arguments are circular, then we are all guilty of circularity. No argument can be completely neutral, it's all based on some basic starting point. I choose to base mine on God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ, my Lord and my Savior. What do you believe and why do you believe it? Roger Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."

The author of the Bible is God but was written using man as the instrument. The following is what the Bible states about who wrote the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." 2 Peter 2:20-21 "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy of was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." First of all, 2 Tim 3:16 says that the Bible was inspired by God. Literally "inspired" means God-breathed. The words in the Bible come from God. Yes, men wrote it with their hands but as 2 Peter 2:20-21 states, it was not based on their words, but based on the Holy Spirit moving them to write the words of Scripture down on paper. Grace and Peace, Roger

With all due respect to Ashdot, I would like to respond myself to your question. To simply answer what I said, "I believe that God exists because the Bible states that God exists." Psalm 19:1-6 states, "The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words; Their voice is not heard. Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world. In them He has placed a tent for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; It rejoices as a strong man to run his course. Its rising is from one end of the heavens, And its circuit to the other end of them; And there is nothing hidden from its heat." Practically speaking these verses say that each day when the sun rises from the East and sets in the West, and than you look into the sky and see the stars, this declares that God exists. The Bible also states in Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." This verse teaches us that God has clearly revealed himself to all men and women through His creation. God has not only revealed himself in creation, but through His one and only son Jesus Christ. "For in Him, all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9). So my answer remains that I believe God exists because the Bible states that God exists and I believe the Bible to be the true Words of God revealed to man. I hope I answered your question. Do you believe in God? If not, may why not? Grace and Peace, Roger

I believe in God because I believe the Bible to be the truth and the Bible states that God exists. Grace and Peace, Roger

"How are we Saved? We are saved by becoming true and good members of the Kingdom of Christ. It is impossible to become a true member of the Kingdom of Christ without sincerely believing in the truths of the Creed. But this belief itself is not enough. In order to be a true member of the Kingdom of Christ, one must pray and receive the grace of God in Baptism, the Divine Liturgy and the other sacraments. We must also do works pleasing to God." Quote taken from "The Faith of the Armenian Church" by Hagop Nersoyan from the Western Diocese of the Armenian Church of North America I ask, is this teaching according to the Bible? I will give a brief response. According to the Bible we must be true members of the Kingdom of Christ. Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 that he must be born again, a spiritual rebirth in order to be a member of the Kingdom of Christ (John 3:1-5). BUT the Bible states that salvation is not attained by our good works or by any other means (i.e. baptism, liturgy, sacraments) EXCEPT by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast"). The Bible states also in Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit." The Apostle Paul wrote the book of Galatians to refute this error of teaching that works save. He calls this "another gospel" (Galatians 1:6-8). Paul states that man is not justified by works but through Christ (Galatians 2:16). How then can we be saved? By believing in God's one and only son, Jesus Christ the Lord who came as sinless man (Colossians 2:9) and died a cruel death on a cross for our sins (Romans 5:8). He rose from the grace on the third day to prove that He was God (1 Corinthians 5:4). Jesus calls us to repent of our wicked ways and to follow Him daily (Luke 9:23) and to confess Him as Lord (Romans 10:9 "If we confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.") What about works then? We do not do good works to save us, we do good works because we are saved. We do not live a righteous life to be saved, we live a righteous life because we are saved. It proves that we have been born again. Only those who truly love God and worship Him will obey Him (John 14:15, 21). I do not believe that the Armenian Church's doctrine of salvation is Biblical (according to the Scriptures). Grace and Peace, Roger