phantom

Let's see, according to your broken logic, your little anecdotes about two encounters you have had with Turks are some sort of proof that Turks are cowards? To be honest with you, the only thing I took away from your stories is that Turks know how to turn the other cheek (at least these 3 Turks), which is what we as Christians are supposed to do, remember? You are provoking these people into fights, and they don't retaliate, instead they walk away, and then you have the audacity to criticize their whole nation for being cowards! That's the impression that I got from your stories, and I'm Armenian. Imagine the impression that you gave to everyone else who is not Armenian!

I'm sorry, I just don't understand the mentality of how you can "justifiably dislike" an entire ethnic group in the year 2003? I can see how you might dislike Prof. Halacoglu who keeps finding supposed "Turkish" grave sites for the purpose of further covering up the Genocide, but I don't know how you can dislike all Turks generally. I don't care what happened in 1915, I am not going to live my life with hate in my heart. I'll work to change things, and eventually Turkey will come around, but until then, I'm not going to tear myself up with this racist, hatred mentality. I'll focus on the 10,000 Turks in Europe who petition to have the Genocide acknowledged by Turkey. Just like you suggested, those people are Turks too, and what if Gams had insulted Taner Akcam? By the way, I sense that you too generally hate Turks, but you just think it is smart to cover it up so that we can get the Genocide acknowledged. Otherwise, why would you say that Gams' sweeping hatred is "justifiable"? Let me know if I'm wrong, but that's the impression that I've got.

I don't know about Turkey's national shame, but I am ashamed of being an Armenian when I read the posts in this thread. This is some very narrow-minded drivel about Turks. And that some of you are proud about harrassing Turks is disgusting to say the least. You don't even know if they were good people or bad people, just that they were Turks. For all you know, their best friend was an Armenian and they acknowledged the Genocide. This type of thread is what Turks point to when they say that hatred against them is ingrained in our mentality. It's very shameful, and I'm embarrassed.

Hi guys, I have been following your discussion from yesterday and today, and it is a very interesting topic. First, let me say thanks to THOTH and Pyr for your kinds words. Second, I want to thank Domino for providing me with facts when I need it so that I don't have to go searching through books for hours. Here are my thoughts on why we have so much difficulty changing the minds of Turks in these Internet forums. First of all, most of us are on the attack, and this makes them extremely defensive, and consequently closes their minds to anything we have to say. Second, even when we are not on the attack, most of them have had little experience with Armenians except for the Armenians of the Armenian diaspora. As you all know, we, the Armenian diaspora, are constantly in attack mode against Turks on all issues, not just the genocide issue. It appears to me that we oppose them in every way and on every issue. So they perceive us as pure enemies. And that is the platform from which our discussions with them arise. They cannot trust us even when we are being respectful and reasonable, because they think we are the enemy and that we have an agenda. That agenda being the acquisition of Turkish land and reparations. If I were a Turk, I wouldn't trust us either, given how vehemently we lobby against everything they try to do, even when it has nothing to do with the Genocide. And we use their denial of the Genocide as an excuse. Domino knows more about the facts and details than anyone I have encountered in any of these forums. But at this point, he is so bitter against Turks because of his experiences at Turkey.com, that he cannot discuss the Genocide with Turks without being abrasive or even insulting. And with Turks, the slightest hint of disrespect, antagonism, chauvinism, prejudice, etc. sets them off and they completely shut down. The only way to discuss the Genocide with Turks is to really put yourself in their shoes, and even that doesn't often work. By the way, I did not figure this out over night, I am slowly figuring this out as I interact with Turks at Turkey.com. I think it will be a long process, and the process will involve detached and respectful discussion without resort to name calling, which I know is difficult to do given the hot-blooded nature of both groups of people, and I am guilty of going over the deep end on many occasions. But anyway, my plan is to respond to each and every allegation and alleged fact and point posed by Turks at Turkey.com with facts that contradict their facts. I think that most of the people that I interact with at Turkey.com are intelligent and educated, and they are smart enough to see that their side of the story has more holes in it than they may have originally thought. I think that introducing them to facts that they did not know about will poke further holes in their belief system until one by one the doubts they have overwhelm them. For example, they say that there were only 1.25 million Armenians in Ottoman Turkey. We have sufficient proof that the number was probably over 2 million, and that the number that they believe is less credible than the figure of 2 million. Another example: they believe that Armenians are artificially inflating the number of Armenians that died during the Genocide, from an original figure of 600,000 to 1.5 million. We can also show them that this is false, and that it is in fact the opposite that is true; in other words, the original numbers were 1.5. million, and they were eventually whittled down by Turkish denialists to 600,00 and more presently to the ridiculous figure of 300,000. They also argue that Armenians in Istanbul and Izmir were left alone, which proves there was no genocidal intent. We know that isn't true either, and we have sufficient facts to show otherwise. The German archives show that about 30,000 Armenians from Constantinople were in fact killed, and that Izmir was next on the chopping block and was saved by German general Limon Von Sanders who threatened military action if the Armenians were harmed. They refuse to apologize or acknowledge because they say that Armenians were killing them too and that we would have done the same thing to them if given the chance. This must be refuted with careful explanation as to timelines, and as to the actual number and extent of Armenian insurgencies. I think that by utilizing this reasoned and respectful approach, even if they don't outwardly admit that they have changed their minds, and even if we don't actually change their minds, I think we can at least raise doubts in their minds about the accuracy of their assertions. And in my view, that is significant. When I first heard about the Genocide, I thought exactly the way most Turks do; that it was a tragic period in history during which many Armenians and Turks died in intercommunal fighting and a botched attempt by the Ottoman government to move Armenians away from the battle lines. It was only after reading and reading and reading that I began to realize that this was an actual Genocide, and not intercommunal warfare. Nonetheless, I still recognize the fact that Armenians took several opportunities to massacre civilian Turkish populations, and anyone that denies that is just as much in denial as a Turk who denies the Genocide. But we must show Turks that although our ancestors were also guilty of massacres, that does not affect the quality and charactertistic of what the Ittihadists did to the Armenians, especially because most of the Armenian massacres were committed after the Genocide and during the Turkish war of independence. Anyway, my point is that no matter how nationalistic Turks can be, they can be equally rational, even if their actions don't show it. The first step is to get them to see that there are too many holes and inconsistencies in their view of history. This may cause them to let down their gaurd a little bit and to start to accept our view of history. I wish more of you would post at Turkey.com, but not if you are going to perpetuate the stereotype of the rabid Armenian in the minds of Turks there. In other words, don't post if all that you intend to do is "prove" how wrong the "denialists Turks" are, because with that approach you will do more damage than good.

Wow, I don't know who you are THOTH, but I couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo for an eloquently described and extremely enlightened perspective.

Very sad, but true. Unfortunately, I don't see how the current behavior of Armenians (which may very well be justified but let's even assume it isn't) has anything to do with the acknowledgement of past actions by Turks. However, I do see your point that nothing good can come from the perpetuating distrust from either side ... If Turks are going to pay any attention to what we have to say, then we really can't start off by calling them dogs and animals. They are only taught one version of their history, and they don't know what really happened. All they know is that we stabbed them in the back, and it caused lots of bloodshed on both sides. They are also taught that we hate them and that we try to derail everything they want to accomplish. So they already distrust us from the beginning. And of course Armenians distrust Turks because their government continues to perpetuate a lie in the most dispicable way possible. If that is our starting point, which it appears to be, then we have no hope of getting our message across to them if we insult them. That's why I think the current behavior of Armenians is important for genocide recognition. It's not about whether or not it has anything factually do with the Genocide, but rather the diplomacy that is required to break through the barriers created by the Turkish government in the minds of its populace. And from a personal perspective, I don't feel good insulting Turks, because I grew up with them, and I feel Turkish to some extent. I speak the language, I love my uncle who is Turkish, and who happens to be one of the nicest men in this world. I love my cousin who is half Turkish and she happens to be one of the kindest girls in this world. I too am angered and frustrated by denialists like Knight (AKA Kotu Kedi), but I'm not prepared to use that energy to denegrate all Turks, and I don't think any of us should. Plus, in no way does it help our cause. By the way, Mcarthyologist, good job on destroying Kotu Kedi's arguments. I wish I knew as much as you know about the details and fine points of the Genocide.

Wow, you guys are famous over here. They have even opened up a whole new thread about you at Turkey.com. You should check it out. Here's the link: http://www.turkey.com/forums/showthread.ph...?threadid=13331 I'm new to this forum, but I know McArthyologist from our days spent at Turkey.com. I am an Armenian from Turkey. I have looked at some of the posts in this forum. As someone who is from Turkey, I am offended by some of the language used against Turks here. Nonetheless, I am an ardent supporter of the acknowledgment of the Genocide by the U.S., Turkey and the rest of the world. Unfortunately, having spent a considerable amount of time on a Turkish forum, I have serious doubts that Turks are prepared to accept reality anytime soon. Before I found Turkey.com, I didn't realize that so many Turks deny the Genocide. I thought far more of them accepted it, but I only came across two people at that forum who acknowledged their real history, and one of them wouldn't acknowledge it publicly, but only by email to me. I now believe that Genocide denial is much more pervasive in Turkey than I ever imagined. And I think that it is only going to get worse if Turkey implements its new policy of Genocide denial in Turkish schools. I had hope for reconcilliation between Turks and Armenians before, but now I am losing hope because of my time spent arguing with Turks about this issue on Turkey.com. With the brainwashing that some Armenians get about the evil Turk and the brainwashing that the Turks get about the "so-called" genocide, I find it will be exceedingly difficult for us to reconcile and rebuild Armenia and Turkey in a mutually beneficial way.