Error 404

I think you know what I ment Maral jan! But anyway 1000 people 1000 opinions...

Aram Asatryan What a taste... sorry

Here is the part of the map with Mush and Sasun on it (in armenian). It's west of Van lake somewhere between Taron and Aghdsniq. In Tavors maountains. http://www.armsite.com/maps/images/map-western-big2.jpg As far as to Tsovinar I thnik it is reffered to Axtamar (correct me if I am wrong). And Gagik is the King Gagik I (915-921) who built the fortress on Axtamar and it was the kings palace (I would say even the capital of Armenia for a little while).

Who cares who is he for his herd? He could screw his own children and still be a hero in his herd. He and his vermin attacked our ancestors and massacred and destroyed them not us. Anyways, I will send an email. I rather be involved than to stay on the shadow and wait for what I don't even know. Thanks for the advice.

Maybe that's why kazaks and kirgizs recognize him as an national hero. I remember from my young days at the university dorm. There was this guy from Kazakistan. He used to talk alot about antichrist. I told him couple of times not to do that in front of me and I told him why. But he continued. Once we were a little drunk after the party and he started again. I was so mad and looked at him so seriously he was like speechless. Then I took the cross (wooden xachkar) in my room and forced him to kiss it )))) He was so afraid that after refusing two or three times finally he kissed it. He never talked about ghengis khan in front of me but I heard he was doing so before russians. Those guys from Kazakistan and Kirgizistan they used to drink beer and vodka more than christians back on those days and they were eating pork too. But anyways my point is that one needs a lesson to quit a bad habit maybe. So lets make a letter or email to Mongolia's president and tell him that the guy who's 800th birthday they celebrate is an antichrist and a barbaric killer. Many other nations can confirm that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/5168702.stm Mongolians are celebrating the 800 th birthday of the antichrist Genghis Khan. Interesting what if tomorrow germany will celebrate the birthday of Adolf Hitler? Are you gonna tell me there is no link between them? Well both are antichrists. Both used barbaric ways of killing and destroying whole nations and countries. I remember I red in history books in the school that Genghis Khan ordered to his vermin (army) to kill everyone and destroy the buildings and everything to the ground zero in the cities he took over. That way he could have more flat lands with grass for his herd's of sheep. Can you belive it? Armenia was one of those obstacles on his way and he did the same to our lands and people. What is so great about him and his vermin? His barbaric methods of killings and rapings? What? Maybe we should send a letter or email to mongolian president or whoever is in charge and remind them who was the antichrist? Because by honoring him they are dishonoring other victim nations. Any thoughts?

http://www.armrockart.nt.am Here you go. By the ways its real slow. I have contacted the president of the project and offered him a favor (web space on a fast server and help with the design of the sites). No answer yet. I would like to volunteer with them. Its a great project, we have a lot of things to study and to show the world .

I read about werewolf type of thing in Van but it was long time ago. The witnesses describe him a human with the wolf head. And supposedly he used to go through the Van's gardens and fight with gardners. But then he dissapeared again after a while. Strange...

Ara did you read any of Alexander Varpetyan's books about armenians and their origins? It is very interesting especially he is touching issues like religion and pantheon. By the way at one point I was interested prehistoric armenian culture too. Actually the cultures of all tribes and nations in that region millenias before. I was born and grow up next to an urartian castle Erebuni in Yerevan. Spent a lot of time in it and around it but never knew details about it. Recently did a lot of researches and learned some details. I have pictures and video from my last trip to home. If you wuld like I can post them here.

Looks like everyone is getting heated up. I don't know Ara Balzioyan(or whatever the hell his name is) or the others you mentioned arpa. But I red about Vasak Mamikonyan, Meruzhan Artsruni both from noble families and treators. I guess Ara Balozian and the people you have mentioned are like them. We have to admit our mistakes and be responsible for them. But we don't have to hate our nation. I think we are slowly getting away from the main subject. It seems to me we are trying to generalize the real causes of the fall of Kars. I agree with you guys alot. We need Khachkars but we also need kalashnikovs, we have a history but we dont have our historical lands, we have Aram Xachaturyan but we don't have mature diplomats today. We had Andranik and Garegin Nzhdeh. Whithout them we probably would not have half of current Armenia. They served and saved our homeland. But again this is like generalizing the Kars issue. The version with Kaukasian Federation Presidetn's (vraci erku eresani shun) could make sense. But I do not belive armenian soldiers would surrender the city and themselfs to death by an order of some vraci shun. I haven't been in a real war. But I imagine surrendering to the enemy is when couple of them are standing 2-3 feets away from you and holding the barrels of their rifles to your face. Maybe then one will surrender. I don't know... Its ironical. .... armenian girls and women jumped from the mountains so the turk and kurd bashibozuks will not get them in 1915 . And here our soldiers surrender themselfs without a battle... Armenian soldiers at Kars did not even start the battle they didn't know who is going to win but they knew what is going to happen when they surrender. They would have rather run away with others and leave the city for turks. But why 4000 military personal and the civilian population stood and surrendered the city? Something is fishy. Can you imagine a situation where azeris are coming and armenian army and civilian population surrenders in Karabax? Could something like this happen? Those guys have seen the enemy in its cruelty they know what is going to happen when they surrender. Same with the civilian population. They have seen baku and sumgait and other incidents. On the other hand azeris have seen our soldiers in their glance. They will not attack yet. Like I said we may never know what was really going on during the last days of Kars. I appologize for my ignorance. So far I only heard conspiracies but no real answer which makes sense to me.

Thanks Arpa for your reply. I have got your point and I accept your opinion. I have read all those staff did a lot of research too. But I still can't find a logic in peacefull surrender of Kars to the turks when our forfathers knew turks so well. 1915 was not that long ago and 1000 years of history with the turks should have been in their minds when they were doing that. When was the last time in history when turks showed mercy to the armenians who surrendered themselfs? Mercy to surrendering military personal? That doesn't make sense to me. They knew what were they doing and they also knew what was going to happen to them after surrender in my opinion. Probably hoping on miracle or a dream that they were going to stay alive. I am looking for some other answers or explanation of the events. What was really behind the surrender? We know that before Kars there was Van which defended itself fiercly against the attacks of turks and kurds. They even made their own cannon in the city and were using trophee weapons. Van's defenders did not even have adequate weapons and supplys. But they did the impossible and when the real massacre was not to be avoided they left the city (everyone). Before the battles of Van turkey was close to distinction as a country and nation. We know that. There was almost nothing left from it. But then the russians pull out because of the october revolution and the country was left to us. I also know that 200 000 armenian soldiers were fighting in the western front during that time. But there were also many left in Armenia too. It's a sad part of our history. Like you said Irlandahay Armenians were begging here and there for help. Instead of taking the arms and defending the liberated teritories. It's sad, but we have to admit and mention it. I agree with arpa. Our history has a lot of sad and black pages just because of us. But we have to take responsibility for that. Because one can learn on its own mistakes. Xrimyan Hayrik told that he is going to talk in Berlin congress with the international language. He is going to cry. When he was asked which language is he going to use in Berlin. But he didn't even had a chance to cry because armenian representatives were not even allowed to be present when they were "solving" armenian question. After the congress the same Xrimyan told to his nation love the weapon the solution is in it... Maybe I will never know the truth about Kars or noone knows it anymore. The fact is that there is no future without the past. So lets face the past and learn from it. Because right now we are in a situation where history can repeat.

There are many theories trying to explain the real cause of the Fall of Kars. But none of them justifies sensless loss of the city which once was the capital of Armenia. I am not talking about treaties and agreements made around that time. I am interested in the real events of 1920's final hours of the City. For those who does not know. The city (which was heavily fortified and could defend itself) was surrendered to the turks in 2-3 hours whithout fireing a shot. The city had enough canons rifles and ammo and as I said was heavily fortified. It was prepared for the defence. But what happened is the Armenian army commanding officers left and flee the city same did the most part of the soldiers. Some 4000 soldiers and officers stood there and did not fight hoping for a mercy from turks. But when the city was surrendered peacefully to the turks they executed those 4000 man and massacred the civilian population of the city then they plundered the city. I have even talked to survivors of Kars. NO real answer... Some mention bolsheviks as a cause, some the fear, some the treason. But it does not make a sense for me. What's your opinion?

Here is what I have found searching in internet. But first let me introduce some facts about Tigranakerts history from Sergey Vardanyan's book "Hayastani Mayraqaghaqner". The autor describes Tigranakert based mainly on Khorenacis writings, he also quotes and uses as a source other historians. Tigran the Great founded his city in 80 BC in Aghdsniq on the banks of Qaghirt river which flows to western Tigris. The first war the city saw was in 69 BC. Tigran the Great was in ocupational campaign in soutwest part of his empire near Palestine. The campaign was succesfull then he got message that Lucius Lucullos entered Armenia and he is rushing with his army to the capital (Tigranakert). The city had around 300 000 population. Lucullos came and blokaded the city. The small army left in the city and the inhabitants start to defend the city with burning the wall destroying machines Lucullos was using and fighting back the attacks. Tigran is sending 6 thousand strong cavalary which surprizes the roman army and fighs it's way to the city. But they only took Tigran's harem and his treasure and again they fought their way out of blockade and join Tigran the Great (in my opinion Tigran acted cowardly in this incident). The city survived the blockade another 6 months. Until Tigran the Great collected big Army 80 thousand man strong and in the autumn he attacks Lucullos. But Lucullos defeats Tigran's army at the battle of Tigranakert. And then the Tigranakert's non armenian population are revolting and opening the gates of the city for Lucullos. He plunders and robes the city. But then he calls it Martiropolis to the fallen roman "heroes". So much about the roman campaign. There are alot to mention but lets not to go to the details. Then the autor is mentioning about arab campaigns. One of them was in 1184 when Salahadin Ayubid (the same Salahadin who was fighting the crusaders) blockaded the city and tried hard to take over but he couldn't. Then he negotiates with the Lord of the city and the city was peacefully transfered to him. He puts his cousine as a new lord. This is the key part. I am sure when he took over the city they built there a mosque and I am sure they would call it after Saladin's name. When I was searching the internet found these pictures with descriptions(some french photographer took it when he was in turkey, silvan). In one of them is a mosque dedicated to Salahadin. The pictures are of Silvan in turkey and you can see in some of them clear parts (walls etc.) of an old fortress. I am not sure if I can directly post pics but here is the link to the website. http://archnet.org/library/images/thumbnai...l?place_id=2115 http://archnet.org/mediadownloader/LibraryImagesBig/image/60050/0/IGV0519.JPG http://archnet.org/mediadownloader/LibraryImagesBig/image/60051/0/IGV0520.JPG Ayubid minaret! http://archnet.org/mediadownloader/LibraryImagesBig/image/60053/0/IGV0522.JPG My conclusion is that Tigranakert once the huge and beautifull capital of Armenia is in/near Silvan in turkey. What do you think?

Man! It's a big port city, what do you expect? Never heard of Sankt Pauly?

Dave, after Lucius Lucullos took over the capital of Armenia at that time, I think he renamed it to Martiropolis in memory of his fallen "heroes" who particpated to the battle and blocade of Tgranakert. Tigranakert continued to live long after that invasion and has seen another invasions (persians, arabs etc). Even Salahaddin Ayubid took over the fortress and put his cousine as a governor for that region or maybe the city. There is no question that it is a ghost town now. It used to be one of the most beautiful capitals and one of the most beautiful cities of Armenia and middle East around that time built by Tigran the Great. Historians are describing it beautiful city with very high fortress walls. Now there is nothing left. But I am sure there could be at least something left like a ruins or a small part of a wall or some small surviving building which could be converted to the mosk or somthing by the current inhabitants. But the question is where is it exactly? It used to be one of the 12 capitals of Armenia over time and it would be useful to know where it is now. I know some Armenians from around the world have visited it and they know exactly where it is. I was hoping someone from here could be the past visitor of Tigranakert.

Is it Dyarbekir? Or is it near todays city of Silvan in Turkey? Your opinion?

When I was in Hamburgs Sankt Pauly red light district. Before you enter the area the banner says "No Woman and No Dogs" but in german. So the "Dog" could not mean "Hot Dog" it meant a real dog. I still can't understand why they put that banner over there. Any suggestions?

Eurocentric, Thank you for the information. I knew about the Kurgan Theory I have already read about it. I also know about Hayasas and Mushkas. And there are a lot of opinions about Indo European Urheimat theory which oppose each other. Mushkas and Hayasas were small tribes sometimes small kingdoms for short times. But I do not deny the probability of them beeing our ancestors. Just no clear evidence... You know how much information you can find nowodays about this issue but all of them are contradicting each other. I repeat no clear evidence. Jews, assyrians, arabs can clearly tell us where they are from and how was their history. We know the history of turks too (despite they are denying it so desparately). But how about us? Hurrians were ruled by Aryan aristocracy. The kings of Mittani were from aryan origin there is no doubt about this. But hurrians were not aryan. And then armenians were ruled by urartian kings which have hurrian origin. Something is not right or not clear. Seems like armenians if they did not migrate to the region from anywhere else (from Balkans or South Ukraine) were always there but in the shadow or under different ID. Lets consider that Aryan migration started from our homeland (which is another theory) and then they went counter clock wise to the east to india then to urals then over todays russia to europe. It could be that the part of aryans who is left in the region (our homeland) could be our ancestors which stood there over time together with other tribes and nations (like hurians etc.) then when the time was right they established Armenia as a country and a kingdom. This is just a rough opinion to which I would like to belive despite the lack of clear evidence. What is your opinion? Did we come to the region from anywhere else or do you agree with me that we were always there? Thanks.

I wish it were so simple. But it's not. At least not for me. Well, assuming the urartians and armenians were living next to each other and the urartians were the kings of armenians (again two different nations). Question: Why there is no mention about the armenia or armenians before 1 millenium B.C. by any historian from that times? If there were urartians and armenians living next to each other. Urartians are from hurrian origin what's the origin of armenians? Where do they come from? We know that before Urartians that region was populated with hurians and sumerians(sumerians migrated to the south and got mixed and absorbed by accadians with the time) since 4000 B.C. then the Hitities came and populated the western(todays anatolia or turkey) part of hurian teritories (teritories, because at that time there was no hurrian kingdom).

I have done some research lately in internet and read several books about the ancient Armenia, Urartians and Hurrians. I am not historian, therefore my question may sound naive. But still when the questions rise they need answers. An inquiring mind wants to know. Somehow I came to the conclusion that Urartians who were the decendants of Hurrians were not our ancestors. Correct me if I am wrong please. One of the major reasons is the language difference. Alexander Varpetian in his "Ovqer en i verjoy ariaciner@" book tries to find similiarities between two nations and he finds a lot of them. But I think he fails to mention about the base difference of both languages. As is known Urartian is agglutinative language, which belongs to neither the Semitic nor the Indo-European families but to the Hurro-Urartian family. It has 2 languages in its family Urartian and Hurrian. Both are extinct. Some linguists insist that Hurrian and Urartian are related to Northeast Caucasian languages, and place them together in an Alarodian language families. But there is not enough evidence. If we are not decendants of Urartians then who are we? Cimmerians? Who's got mixed with people in the region? Who? Urartian kingdom stoped to exist in 585 BC. The last king was Rusa IV. It is not possible to change the language of the whole nation in one night and to become Armenian and to speak armenian. Since Armenia is first mentioned in the history around that time by other than armenian historians. Then supposedly Armenians are coming and absorbing Urartu mixing with them. Urartians are taking the Indo-European language and armenians are taking certain aspects from Urartian language. This is a big puzzle for me. Who are we? What is the real age of our nation and the history? I am trying to keep my mind wide open and to think neutral. I don't want to be lead only by armenian historians like Khorenaci. I wan't multiple sources to confirm the same fact. But they don't match. Your opinion?