Ata Donme

Huh, what kind of Forum is this? Hyeforum I don't think. A man like Steve, a great hero, is banned? Oh so typically Armenian, back stabbing the heros... Arpa, a Pus*y like you is well versed in Catcalls, and you expect no response? huh. I think the general motive of this Site is to legally eliminate anyone who has differing views and to just use the Site as a propaganda vehicle for Oooo soooo 100% Armenians who luv Horavadz and Rabiz and long boring cut 'n' paste jobs and just happen to live in America LOL!

Mosjan, as much as I want to respect you, why did you delete my resonable reply? You know it is Arpa who is the problem, not us.

Have you actually watched the Film? The credits list the Duduk tune as 'AZERI' ooo thankyou Mel, I don't think

Wow! Well we live and learn....

So we know that there was a Hindu refugee community settled in the western parts of the kingdom, mainly in Taron. Could they have brought their alphabet with them and could some of its letters have been adopted? As we know it is always said the Meshrob based his 'new' alphabet on Greek. I know the Greek alphabet and I can only see about 2 letters in the Armenian alphabet that resemble Greek. Aramaic, more likely, but still the method of the Armenian writing system is not the same as the Arabic sytem. You can view the Aramaic script here. So the question I dare to say, and I don't think it far fetched , is that could Meshrob have researched the alphabet that was used by the surviving refugees in Armenia in 406 AD*? The written alphabet the Hindu refugees would have used is called Brahmi, you can view it here. *Note: By this date any surviving peoples of Hindu descent would have been Christian, though they would have no doubt venerated their Hindu ancestors and remembered the holy days of the year, in time they would be assimilated into the Hygagan community though their customs would prevail.

Slightly unrelated to the subject of Hindu-Armenian name origins, but only slightly.... Is it only in Armenian and Hindu tradition for the bride-to-be to have her hands painted with Henna prior to the marriage? Have a look at some of our amazing manuscripts, how often do you see a peacock in it? Is the bird native to Armenia or India? Of course we know that at least by the Bagratuni era the monarchy liked to decorate its palaces in all kinds of oriental fineray, particularly that from India.

Well done folks, I like to see positive contributions to this often overlooked subject As we know many good topics end up as slanging matches or petty gossip columns. Oh yes, Anushika, I was going to add that Alas I know only a few Hindi words, for a real insight into such possible connections a joint research team of Indians and Armenians would be needed, such can be done in Yerevan. I thought the Urartuan name for Van was 'Tushpa' and for Yerevan was 'Erebuni'? So when and why did they change the names and add the 'Van' suffix? It seems that with the collapse of the Urartuan kingdom until the Arshakuni kingdom an influx of outsiders such as Semite slaves (Khm'bat), Brigians (Phyrigians), Parthians (Arshakuni), Hindus and Chinese (Shu) refugees have left their mark in large or small ways. Personally, after learning from the works of Zenob of Glak, that there was a sizable Hindu refugee community in the kingdom of Armenia from 149BC *until the Conversion era that the name Ashot is a result of the 'in vogue' Hindu name of Ashok being adopted and corrupted in the Armenian kingdom. As mentioned in the Topic description, the greatest king of India had ruled over 80 years previously, Ashoka. The 'a' is not pronounced. Why I even had the far fetched idea, which is not often , that the wandering minstrels of the Middle East and central Asia, the 'Ashok' derives from the wandering missionaries sent into these areas by king Ashoka to promote his kingdom and his new found religion, Buddhism, in the 3rd century BC. Of course be the early 20th century AD the term would be applied to the wandering minstrels who sang of many subjects. Our most famous Ashok of all was 'Sayat Nova'. *Note: According to Zenob of Glak, the Hindu refugee princes founded the villages of Kaurs (Kars) and Giss-Aneh (Ani) which would gain fame in the 9th century Bagratuni era.

Well I am sure this may have been commented on years ago here, but just for a refresher lets look at it again. The posting of this thread in History I think is appropriate as it stems from history. Okay time to get your teeth gnashing again, book an appointment at the dentist Now how is it that in Armenia and India alone the names used are either the same or similar, names that are not used in any other countries? Here is just some of them.... Sevak in Armenia Sewak in India Vardan in Armenia Vardahn in India Manoog in Armenia Manooj{*} in India Sevan in Armenia Sivan in India Ashot in Armenia Ashok(*) in India Anahit in Armenia Anahita in India to list a few examples of names Now I put forword three reasons which could all explain it... 1) Armenians and Indians both being affected by the 'Aryan Invasion' of the 1st millenium BC 2) The Hindu refugees settled in the Taron province of Armenia in 149 BC[*] 3) Armenian merchant families in India bringing their culture with them, and in time intermarrying with locals. What are your thoughts, if any , on this cultural relationship? {*} Note: In Arabic Manooj is a slang word for a pretty woman, literally meaning Nice P*ssy (*) Note: Ashok was the most famous of the Mauryan dynasty rulers of India, reigning from 268 to 233 BC [*] Note: the same year the Iranian Arshakuni dynasty came to power in Armenia, 149BC

If I may have my say/ rant... I know of no country or nation that can claim 100% genetic uniformity or cultural homegenity. Hitler tried it and it all went wrong And Armenia too, a geographical region of the Middle East has had more than any other nation perhaps, a vast influx of peoples throughout history. However the land is harsh and only the most determined would stay and survive there and make a home for themselves. So inturn they would become part of the majority Hygagan culture. We have been through before the Jewish Khm-bat (Smbat) leader of Jewish slaves sent as a gift to Takavor Hratch for helping the Assyrians, the Hindu refugees settled in the province of Taron after fleeing a military coup in western India in 149BC which was the same year the Iranian dynasty of the Arshakunis came to power under Takavor Vagharshak and of course we have long ranted about the Chinese (Shu) origins of the Mamikonian (Mamgun= Peoples Army in Chinese) who fled to the Iranian Empire before being forced to resettle in Armenia in 268 AD etc etc. Today in Hyastan we can look at the example of the Yezidis who are perhaps more patriotic than some Armenians who prostitute the Armenian village girls! Hmmm, perhaps it is this genetic diversity coursing in our veins that makes it easy for us to relate and socialise with foreigners, but makes it hard for us to socialise with each other as we imagine that we must look the same and think the same, which is bullsh*t.

It is my view, incorrect or correct... "They were a group of Armenians who lived in the Southeastern part of the Empire, out of the direct control of the Armenian Church. At a synod in 719, John of Ojun, who headed the church in that area, declared that Paulicians were "sons of Satan." He asserted that they gathered at night in order to "commit incest with their own mothers" as well as put infant blood in a Eucharist-like mixture. Also, he said that they paid homage to Satan while prostrating themselves and foaming at the mouth. Historical documents prove that none of this is true, at best, they were just a group of simple-minded people, but remember these ideas, they'll come into play later. Following this, it appears that the papacy was, (and ironically still is), targeted as the main source for being Satanists and for being the possible anti-Christ. Bernard McGuinn, "Angel Pope and Papal Anti-Christ", Church History 47, dates the first instance of this to the Synod of Reims, (991 CE). In his book "Visions of the End: Apocolyptic Traditions in the Middle Ages", he says that this was used as a critique of the papacy by its detractors. Following them we come into contact with a group known as the Cathars, (1150-1230). They were survivers of Manichæans apparently, holding most of the same views. (Cathars/Cathari is from the Greek katharos, meaing "pure", literally they are "puritans"). They believed that humans should never have sex, under any circumstances, and that suicide, or the Endura, is not only lawful but commendable. They rejected the Old Testament, thought that John the Baptist was a high ranking demon, and that Mary Magdelene was the concubine of Jesus. It was believed that they were enslaved by the Devil and that nothing that they did could possibly hurt them. In addition to encouraging vice in this way, Cathars also denounced the Church and their Baptism at the time of initiation. (The higher Cathars would abstain from any vice, however, creating an interesting dichotomy). It's doubtful if they actually worshipped Satan, but the story held on that they were incestuous and cannibals. (Same old, same old.) These Luciferians believed that Lucifer and his host of demons had been unfairly expelled from heaven. Some day, they claimed, he would return and overthrow the Christian God at which time he would reign forever. Accordingly, it was said that they did everything they could to offend God, since their reward would be everlasting paradise with Lucifer. Truth is though, that in Raynaldus, we find out that they were evil because they could fly on wings to heaven if only they would say a Pater noster, with a deacon's hands on them, no matter what they had done, they'd go to heaven. The Cathar's further believed that Lucifer was on the same level as Jesus, who was the symbol of the Word, who came to Earth to teach man how to escape from the Evil God and return to the Kingdom of Heaven. Lucifer was the older brother of Jesus, who had rebelled against the father, and Lucifer was equally powerful and co-eternal with his brother. However, the Cathar's really weren't so bad as a sub-sect of them, known as the "Albigenses". These are what seem to be the primary influence of Luciferianism into the Middle Ages. The albigenesis held the dualistic viewpoint, there was a good God, and a bad God. Bad God was the same one from the Old Testament, the Good God sent his Son onto Earth. However, Jesus couldn't assume the form of a human being, because human flesh was weak. Because of this, Jesus couldn't assume full human-form, and came in through the ear of Mary. In this cult, sex was okay so long as it was not marital sex. A man or woman could leave the spouse freely, and their main idea was to punish the human body for its sinful nature. As such, they would only eat fish, and would generally starve themselves. The most honorable means of death for them was to starve themselves to death. They hated anything to do with the cyclic system of life, a woman who was pregnant was described as having a devil inside of her. They even hated marriage in the animal kingdom, which is why they liked fish so much. (Fish don't raise their eggs.) Eventually, such psychological terror lead the Albigenses to start having revolts, while the people argued over what amounts of marriage were permissable. One view gaining favor was that if a woman was a virgin it was okay. Others disagreed. Eventually, the common folk started to come after them, and they persuaded the Pope, after having his Papal legate murdered by the Albigenses, to call it a crusade. Luciferians appear to have entered the scene at the late 12th/early 13th century. Conrad of Marburg reports that this sect was growing rapidly. According to him, they would: ". ... blaspheme against the Lord of Heaven, and in their madness say that the Lord has done evil in casting Lucifer into the bottomless pit ... These ... people believe in Lucifer and claim that he ... will ultimately return to glory when the Lord has fallen from power. Through him and with him they hope to achieve eternal happiness. They confess that they do not believe that one should do God's will but rather what displeases him". Extracted from here. The attitude of that Gregorian priest towards you was stupid to say the least.

My love of the Gospels aside, my thoughts upon the motives of Sourp Gregor... He was an agent of the Roman Empire. Oh my God, now Ata Donme has gone too far!!! But hang on, didn't we become christians more than a decade before the Empire did? Well that prized notion is no longer taken as 'gospel' in scholastic circles... "The traditional date of the conversion of Armenia, however, has now been questioned. A.E. Redgate, in The Armenians [basil Blackwell, 1998, 2000, pp.116-117], says that it was more like c.314, after Constantine's own conversion. Backdating the event was a later fabrication, during the period of Persian rule, in order to assert that Armenian Christianity was independent of Roman, and that Chistianity therefore did not represent Roman sympathies and disloyality to the Sassanids. Redgate thinks that the conversion of Tiridates III (or IV) was precisely to display loyalty to Rome." Extracted from here. My love of the Gospels aside, the conversion process of the kingdom was a horrendous event, almost genocidal itself with pagan Armenian families that refused to convert being either killed or forced to flee for their lives. Most settled in the border zone between the kingdom and the Empire, they gave rise to the Paulician sect. The Hindu population that had lived valiantly and loyally in the kingdom was also forced to either convert or die. Some converted, though they were really Crypto-Hindus, others fled. This may well be the origin of the East European Gypsies. "In A.D. 301 there was a bloody battle between heathen Armenians-Hindus, and Christians. According to Zenob of Glak, the Hindu army itself numbered 10,000 warriors. Most probably this figure has been deliberately exaggerated by the historian as he was in service of Christian church and, by showing the big number of the heathens, he might probably wanted to overemphasize the victory of Gregory the Illuminator and Armenian King Tiridates. It is also probable that besides the Hindus Zenob would have mentioned also the number of heathen Armenians. But in any case the Hindus were in large numbers as they had their own separate army." "Zenob precisely describes the military actions between the governmental forces and heathen Armenians and Indians. He also mentions that Prince of Ashten in the army of the Illuminator secretly sent a message to the heathens, warning them about the danger. Not long after that, during one of the battles he left the King’s army and with his 700 soldiers joined the army of the heathens." Being the participant of the events, Zenob describes the proceedings of the state army: “And having taken our departure from there (Thordan), we intended to proceed to Karin and Harkh, but some of the Armenian princes informed St.Gregory of the existence of two temples in the province of Taron which still offered sacrifices to the devils, whereupon he resolved to demolish them. Having arrived in the country of the Paloonies, in the extensive village, called Gissaneh, near the village town of Kuars, we met there some of the heathen priests. Having ascertained from the Hindu prince of Hashtents that the great images of Gissaneh and Demeter were to be leveled to the ground on the following day, they [Hindus] returned to the temples in the dead of the night and removed the treasures and filled them into sub-terraneous houses.” " The Indian Head priest buried the statues of the Hindu gods, hid the treasures of the temples, and then informed the priests of Ashtishat to gather armed forces and come for help. The following day heathen Armenians joined the Indians and a fierce battle took place. The heathens suffered a defeat. After the battle a monument was raised which bore the following inscription: The first battle which was fought very fiercely. Artzan [Arjun], the head priest, the Chief Commander of the battle, lies interred here, and with him one thousand and thirty eight men. We waged this war on account of the idol Gissaneh and on behalf of Christ." " According to Zenob, who was the eyewitness of the events, the Hindus that were baptized on the first day of Navasard (New Year of ancient Armenia which was celebrated in the middle of August) numbered five thousand fifty, and they were men and children only, while the women were baptized on another day. Some of these converted Hindus taunted the Armenian princes telling them that if they lived they would retaliate for the harsh treatment they had received at their hands, but if they died, the gods would wreak their vengeance on the Armenians on their behalf. For this, by the order of the Armenian prince these Hindus were imprisoned, and they numbered four hundred." Then Zenob continues: “Gissaneh had long flowing hair and for that reason its priests allowed the hair of their head to grow, which the King ordered to be cut. This people were not, however, perfect in their faith after their conversion into the Christian faith and as they could not profess the religion of their pagan ancestors openly, they therefore practiced the deception of allowing their children to grow a plait of hair on the crown of their heads, so that they may, be seeing that, remember their idolatrous abominations.” With this, the history of the Hindu colony, which had existed on the territory of Armenia for more than 450 years, came to an end. No further reference is available to the Indians in Armenia after A.D. 4th century by any of the Armenian historians who came after Zenob. It is worth noting that with the conversion of the kingdom and the expulsion of the Hindus the kingdom was divided within 50 years and soon annexed to the Roman and Persian Empires... And so in my opinion St. Gregor, like his father, worked for the interests of outside enemies. I his case it was Rome, in his father's case it was Persia.

I shall tell of another shocking truth... St. Gregor's father, Anag, murdered Takavor Khosrov Metz. Anag and Khosrov were both ethnic Parthians, a trib hailing from the north-eastern Iranian plateu. In 224 AD the Sassanian dynasty overthrew the Parthian dynasty that had ruled the land for over 400 years. Anag sold out and gave his services to the new Shah, Ardashir, to murder Takavor Khosrov, who had given shelter to his kinfolk in Armenia. Takavor Khosrov had also suceeded in invading Persia and defeated Shah Ardashir. It looked as if this revolution would be snuffed out! And so Anag was sent to murder Takavor Khosrov, and he did so when out on a hunting trip with the Takavor, a guest! Anag did not get away with this heinous crime and was chased down and justly killed at the bridge of the river Daper. Soon most of his family was also wiped out in revenge. Except for two children, one of whom was called Suren... Read more here.

In all honesty and sensibility, I would avoid living in a high rise building in Hyastan... ... mainly due to the high likelyhood of Earthquakes!

I read extensivly about this horror in Heteq online and alas, the local 'authorities' have a vested interest in the continued 'exportation' of poor fatherless Armenian village girls to the U.A.E. An interest measured in millions of $ in bribes! These scum, vay Astvadz, they do not care about Armenia, about the blood shed at Sardarabad for our freedom, they only care about their bellies and lower regions. They take advantage of well intentioned diasporans. They would rather be anything else but Hyastani! We diasporans should Invade en masse and take over the country for its own sake!

One of my main concerns over Hyastan, in particularly Yerevan, is the sheer volume of rubbish that is lying hither and dither in and around the city, the most noticeable is the plastic bottles etc that people just discard as if they will melt away on their own! Along with the tons of scrap metel that is lying arounf the city and in peoples gardens, remnants of the Soviet Industrial era, such resources should be recycled! Also their is no proper refuse collection, as to what I have seen, in Yerevan. People just dump their bags of rubbish in any available hole, and again, expect it to dissapear on its own! My God! Never mind the valuable plastics, papers and metals going to waste... Just contemplate the very real threat of an outbreak of plague! And whoose job is it primarily to see to such basic and vital matters? The President!

Phaanton22, the focus of this popular thread is to highlight the fact that some Armenians in history converted to Islam, if it piss*ss anyone off here then they should go to the graves of these people and p*ss on them if it makes them feel sooo Armenian

Oh dear me these is getting hilarious! I thought the Germans had no sense of humour! But these 'so called sources' come from the online Wikipedia Oh it is sooo malicious, discussing the taboo that Armenians converted to Islam in history

Poor Arpaskvili, it is clear he is upset how a popular thread like this with 1,000 viewings could be thought up by a newbie like me. And pity his inibility to see Irony in my username 'Ata Donme' i.e. Father of Converts... Armenians in history did convert to Islam, mostly by force, but some in the case of Emir Karaman and Emir Danishmend, did so for personal gain, becoming rulers of Emirates. So the purpose of this Thread is to highlight such famous characters who were Armenian, religion aside. After all, we all praise Takavor Tigran, but he was a pagan, so does that mean he is not Armenian? lol! Arpashkvili, you are conducting a fine charade of illustrating Hyots culture to the masses!

Fascinating links, I will look them up. Do you live in Turkey? You surely know what 'Donme' means? It means convert! It is a take on Mustafa Kemal's Jewish Ancestry! LOL! So even if I had chosen a username like 'Turkish Ars*hole' you would automatically gnash your teeth and type frentically that I am a Turkish provocator lol! Arpashkvili wrote: "I t is beyond me how some of us will be sucked into such a blatant trap set by an obvious Turk whose only aim is to solicit and elicit off color comments, and in doing so to hijack the debate and deflect our attention. It is obvious that the originator of this thread is a Turk, openly and brazenly using a Turkish nickname and reinforcing it by declaring his connection to ATA (American Turkish Association, the nemesis of the Armenian Assembly and ANCA)." Oh dear me, the 'Nobility' has also no idea of this play on a name! My god they say the Americans have no sense of Irony! Ooo a blatant trap, discussing ignored aspects of Armenian History! Off colour, my oh my! Discussing aspects of our history, such as those who converted or rose to power in Islamic countries is off colour oooo sooorrrrryyy! lol! Hijack what debate, most of what I read here prior to joining was literal mass-debation Look at how many times this thread has been viewed, over 1,000 times, that says something surely? That people like to read new subjects! Or maybe it is because Lord Arpashkvili did not come up with this thread himself? mmmm?

Anytime, great leader! slthough, I back track about Mumtaz being an Armenian, though certainly the wife of Emperor Akbar was, and so was his step-son.

He was trully a role model for all Armenians

Oh our wonderful noses, the odars don't know what they're missing! lol! Does Armenia pruduce Irish Guiness now?

In general, if you have nothing better to do, , PC stratedgy games are good, and RTW is a great time killing device.

Well I must say that I always wondered why on earth did such 'fantastic' people such as us decided to settle in one of the most tectonically volatile places on earth. Why we chose to settle in a geographical region that is a crossing place for nomadic war mongers. Why we chose to settle in a place that is mostly arid and semi-desert. Choice? Or compulsion? I have some far fetched ideas, you may know by now dear compatriots! And one of them is that we are descended from peoples who came from a far better land that was ruined by either a natural catastrophe or by war. Sort of like 'Atlantis' Some prominant persons have believed in these ancient wars, even the likes of Dr. R. Oppenheimer who supervised the Manhattan Project had this to say... "Only seven years after the first successful atom bomb blast in New Mexico, Dr. Robert Oppenheimer (1904-1967) Scientist, philosopher, bohemian, and radical. A theoretical physicist and the Supervising Scientist of the Manhattan Project, who was familiar with ancient Sanskrit literature, was giving a lecture at Rochester University. During the question and answer period a student asked a question to which Oppenheimer gave a strangely qualified answer: Student: Was the bomb exploded at Alamogordo during the Manhattan Project the first one to be detonated? Dr. Oppenheimer: "Well -- yes. In modern times, of course." Extracted from Here. Of course it is far fetched, that is, it is far from current accepted history, certainly pro-occidental history. And although I admire the Gospels as a christian, I also believe humans have been on earth far longer than 6,000 years and that we have developed societies way before 'history begins in Sumeria'. If Takavor Tigran was aiming to recreate the ancient bounds of our people, reaching to Egypt then maybe our people were the brains that built the Sphinx long before it was engulfed in a flood loosing its Leonine/Canine appearance, only thousands of years later being remodelled by Pharoah Khafre around 2,500 BC Why we may even have been the brains behind the building of the Great Pyramid And why do you think the line of the Pharoahs were so obsessed with preserving their genes that they intermarried? You know pharoah Ra-Masses had a large 'Armenian' nose... You can see the old fellow here but he is looking a tad dishevelled mind! In fact the Egyptian name suffix Masses/Massis means 'to be born of' just as our famous Mt. Massis is 'born' out of the earth by volatile tectonic activity. And I might haste to add that the Armenian adventurer/philosopher G.I. Gurdjieff found a map of pre-sand Egypt whilst at an Armenian monastery! Can't believe it? Can't stop rolling around with laughter? Can't stop gnashing your teeth? Well check Here... Maybe the reason why some geneticists found Armenian DNA to be close to African DNA is because we came from that continent, when the sterile Sahara was a fertile Savana, the great Nile the life blood ot the land and route to the mineral rich south... Well the thread is about the antiquity of Armenia, I'm just pushing things a little, well alright, I have pushed it way over the cliff! lol!

We know Turkish politics by now to see through these gestures. They want to get into the EEC, so must be tolerant of the minorities. Once they're in they can revert back to represive 'anti-terrorist' policies.