Ata Donme

Well most of us know, as we all should by now, reflecting upon history et all, that THE GREATEST ENEMY OF ARMENIA, THAT HAS ALWAYS RUINED ARMENIA, IS ARMENIANS! Shock horror! Blaspehemy! Outragous! Yes, but also true! Unfortunately. Let me give you one example, the reason why the Tartars (Azeris) managed to establish themselves in the ancient Armenian city of Susha (Sushi) was due to a civil war among the Meliks, one of them called on the aid of a Tartar chief, and so the chief gladly went raping, pillaging and murdering his way to Susha, and established his brigands in the lower town. They later built 2 mosques there. Yes, that was due to another pointless Armenian civil war. Read some of the Bagratuni history if you dare and you can also read about the numerous civil wars that occured, for example between Artsruni and Bagratuni, or just Bagratuni against Bagratuni. The Armenian army that was at Manzikert (Manazgert) in 1071 AD, along with the 100,000 strong heterogenous army of Byzantium commanded by Romanos Diogenes this was to decide the fate of Anatolia, whether it would be Greeko-Armenian or Turkish. Against this impressive force hiding in the hills was the also heterogenous army of Sultan Alp Aslan, mostly muslim though no doubt some jews, christians and satanists (Paulicians*) where in it either by will or compulsion. Well the Armenian army stationed in front on the right flank did a 'runner'. Of course the Byzantine elite cavalry at the rear did not budge as Romanos was engulfed by Turks. The Western mercenaries too waited to see the outcome of the battle. The previous day around 25,000 Byzantine troops 'dissapeared' on route to Khlat (Xlat). But if the Armenians had just stayed, and fought for their homeland, things may have been so very different today... And of course the greatest Armenian traitor of all, perhaps, was the son of Takavor Tigran Metz, he helped the Romans under the command of Pompey into the heartland of the Armenian kingdom! Again, upon reading these shocking events in our past it is painful to think how better Armenia would have been had Tigran died childless! *note: The Paulicians were mostly descended from pagan Armenians driven from the kingdom and established themselves in the borderlands between the kingdom and the Roman/Byzantine Empire. Their stronghold was Tephrike (Divrig)

Great info Artaxias! Inevitably looking into 'legends you uncover facts, so I can see this thread turning into a "famous ancient Armenians" topic Oh Arpa, I hope your teeth are ok, from all the gnashing! Arpa Wrote... This is a heap of “dragon droppings”. Well if you consider looking into our history as such, it is your choice. No matter how we search, go ahead, conduct a search using st/saint George as you keyword, you will run into the word “LEGEND”. I know that typing in St. George into your average yagoogoo will churn up the Encarta version of history, so that's why I take a deep look at history then again at a different angle to get your teeth gnashing, after all what was going on in this Forum before I came along? Scintillating dialogue? Nouvel ideas? Really? An aside; Why is Vrastan known as Georgia? It might be due to the fact that its first king, of the united kingdoms of Abasgia and Iberia, was called George You can verify it in a yagoogoo search engine The Armenian word for dragon is vishap, So if George was Armenian his name would have been “vishapaspan (dragon slayer) or “vishapakagh” (dragon reaper) (btw, Vahakn has both of those titles.) Actually the Armenian word for dragan, Vishap, is of Hindu origin and so is Vahakn he is Agni, oh yes, there was a Hindu population in Taron by 149 BC... Just read the works of Zenob, the disciple of Sourp Gregor. On the other hand if George was Armenian his name would have been “erkragordz”, as George is strictly a Greek word to mean “farmer/worker of the earth” from “geo=earth” and [e]rg=work. We know from our elementary physics that “erg” means work. Consider the English “work” an the German “werk”. I said “erkragordz” and not “mshak”, another Armenian(?) word to mean farmer. The question mark to indicate that “mshak” is not a native Armenian word, it was introduced from the Caucasian languages, the likes of Georgian ( I can elaborate on that). Oh I do like Physics, I am sure all subjects can be woven together and discoursed with pleasure, but lets try to keep to the subject of this Cappadocian cavalry officer, who DID exist, I doubt the Armenians of the 4th century would have elaborated the Hellenic name into a direct Armenian translation, did they do so for Bedros, Boghos, Matios or Tatios? Noooooo By the way, have you Vrastani blood in you? If so then I can understand your abhorance to the notion that this Patron Saint could be Armenian, oh the Vrastanis do hate us, dont you Stating that St George was Armenian is not any different from stating that Santa Claus was Turkish. Is that enough fodder for ridicule? Oh dear, my conception of you being Vrastani is increasing, why you surely know that there was no such state as Turkey in 4th century Anatolia? Nikolous aka Santa Claus was an ethnic Greek, or Roman citizen as he would have called himself, and he DID exist as history proves and science verified by way of his skeleton, DNA testing and facial reconstruction go on, have a look.... FYI. In the Armenian the name, strictly speaking is spelled "Gevorg"not Kevork, to be more precise, “Geworg/"Գեւորգ "as in the Greek Gamma-Epsilon-…Omega-Rho-Gamma where the Hyun/Ւ is either silent or pronounced like the English W. Oh what a titilating discourse on the rules of words. Try saying Gevorg in the Istanbul Armenian community and you might end up on a kebab skewar, for calling them Gevor which in Turkish means Infidel. In western Armenian we pronounce it as Kevork, as the Cappadocian Armenians would have too. Dear me, it looks less and less like your Armenian from the evidence Go on, gnash your teeth, you know you love it! Go ahead, stir the bottom of the barrel and see what kind of sh*t you may hit to bring more ridicule upon us. Is there a pkace for us at Round Table of Arthur? Or are we too square? Oh the Vrastani is speaking of US I did not know that Armenians did not want to learn about their history or of researching into it. Nor did I think Armenians thought of such pursuits as sh*t. Unless of course you are Vrastani, in which case anything to do with Hygagan culture must be erased at all cost and silenced, oh Vrastan is such a good bed fellow of father Turkey isn't it? Oh yes research proves that Sarmatian cavalrymen were employed into the Roman army and large numbers of them were settled in Britain. Being a warrior nation, they preffered a simple round wooden table when it came to feasting, so no one would argue and fight over seating arangements. You see dear Arpashkvili, Legends conceal facts. Are not Saints Aramazt, St. Haik, St Vahakn, St Anahit and Astghik enough that we have to resort to such garbage to legitimize our very existence??!!. Hoho, I like your humour, oh they are soooo Armenian aren't they these pagan dieties of various ethic origins, oh yes Vahakn is also of Hindu origin too, from the mid 2nd century BC onwards. Oh I just can't help adding that Aramazd is from the Zoroastrian Ahura Mazda and Anahit is Scythian in origin, a warrior nation related to the Sarmatians, they had contact with Armenia via caucasian Albania where Azerbaijan is today. Oooo these dieities are soo Armenian Dear Arpashkvili, try looking for some more factual characters, you talk about digging up sh*t, but if you can not appreciate history and culture and think all of it as sh*t then why bother reading this thread It will only damage your teeth with all that gnashing... As for me, any reasearch into history that can reveal the characters, is a worthy pursuit, our people are not sh*t Arpashkvili, we are Diamonds, and every time Vrastanis or others hit us, it makes us Stronger... But lets be above petty one-up-manship and keep this thread to its subject, as I have seen many good threads end up as slanging matches, obviously due to the lack of fellows capable of contributing anything nouvel, so Artaxias, keep on enlightening us True Armenians

Well, this topic I have decided to create for legendary characters in history who may well have been Armenian... To get the debate/arguments/teeth-gnashing under way I put forward two candidates who may well have been Armenian... 1) Sourp Kevork, patron saint of England and many European countries. Kevork was from the province of Cappadocia in Asia Minor (Turkey) and served as a cavalry officer in the Roman army during the 3rd century AD. His was on active duty in Phonecia which is in Syria. He converted to Christianity and was put to death by the Emperor. Kevork was thus turned into a saint, know to the Greeks as Yorgos and to the Latins as Giorgio. 2) Artur (Harutune), decended from an Armenian aristocratic familyt that lost its lands in Armenia in the late 2nd century AD. The Romans offered them lands elsewhere and they would defend those lands for Rome. The lands in question lay in Brittania (Britain). And so Artur grew up in Britannia and inherited the lands, but by the begining of the 400's Britannia was coming under increased attacks by invaders such as the Saxons. Rome left Britannia in 410 AD to its own defences taking the legions to the continent to defend what was left. And so Artur and his Equites of Sarmatians (knights) took to defending their lands and its people. And so the legend of King Arthur was born. Incidentally, this may be the reason why the 'Celtic Crosses' of Britain and Ireland look like our Khacthkars, with the Armenians who first settled here in time more would have found there way to the island especially int he later centuries as chaos came to Armenia with them would come Christianity which Rome also encouraged them to defend in Britannia... Compare the symbol of eternity on the 'Celtic Cross' at the end of the page to the Armenian symbol.

Very interesting I am sure, but very outside this topic! lol! It is easy to poo poo our history and gobble up all the crap that is pumped into your heads via the idiot box as Gospel But Armenians have any fame in history, nahhhhh! You do the gossip, I do the history, deal?

Vay Astdavdz! If that is the kind of words Sarmad, the Armenian from Isfahan, was saying, then no wonder Sultan Aurangzebe had him beheaded! I just thought it was down to this.... " It is said that Mohammed went to heaven, But I Sarmad say that Heaven came to Mohammed" And of course he was walking arounf stark naked in the fashion of a Guru ! Most unacceptable in the cities of Moghul Islamic India.

Jeex, your telling me! I wonder what will happen to the CA Armenian youth in time! BUUUUTTTTTTTTT thats outside this topic! Lets just say that these kind of topics show that not all us Diasporans have sold out and retain a keen interest in our culture and history, and of course, our future.

Yes, if you read this page you will find out more about her It is very startling when learning these things, just how global our people have been in the past, as they are now.

The ' ian' ending of Muslim Iranian surnames. Is it possible that the number of Iranian surnames that end in ' ian' derive from Armenian ancestors who converted to Islam, yet retained their surnames? A typical example is the classical Iranian musician Mohammed Reza Shajarian, see more here Another example is Indian actress Perizaad Zorabian, see more here

Armenians in India During the Moghul period of India, Armenians rose to prominance, some as adopted sons of Emperors, others as governors of Indian cities. One even has a tomb in Delhi near the Masjid Mosque and is venerated by Muslims and Hindus, even though he was a Christian. A great deal of information can be found Here Though outside the main topic of Muslim Armenians/ Armenians in Muslim countries, that website also discusses the startling revelation that there were Indian colonies in Armenia by 149 BC ! Read on in that page and you will find out...

Also worth noting, though prior to the Turkish era of Anatolia, is the number of Armenians who rose to prominance in the Abbasid and Fatimid Caliphate from the 9th century onwards. Of course in order to get to the position of Emir of Vizier they converted to Islam. Some information can be found here Al Ahram

This is a Topic to post research on Armenians who converted to Islam, and inadvertedly helped build Turkey. For starters I can give you 3 classic examples: 1) Karamanoglu Mehmed Bey in 1246 captures the Greek town of Laranda, near Konya, and renames it Karaman, thus founding the Karaman Emirate. He was born a christian Armenian in Cilicia. 2) Malik Danishmand also in the 13th century serving in the Seljuk Sultanate of Konya, rebels and founds his own Emirate based around Sivas. He mints coins with the Armenian cross on it, well that was because he too was born a christian Armenian. 3) Sinan the master architect of the 16th century Ottoman Empire was born a christian Armenian, from Cilicia, by then under Ottoman control. You see compatriots, the more you look into Turkish history, the more you see it as Armeno-Greek culture with a Islamic veneer...