karakash

I'm an East Coast Armenian adn the poeple here are NOTHING like the many of the Armenians on the West Coast. I've been to LA a few times and it's crazy. The mentalilty there is money and even more - cars, cars, cars...

I think the successes that Armenians have had in Congress because of the hard work of the ANCA and the AAA are even greater than the successes of other Armenian groups - churches, cultural groups, dance groups, etc.

I don't know of any Armenians who support Hastert. No even hard core Republicans. Where are you getting that from?

no point to my comment. just that my cousin is in love with her and rightfully so.

Given my comments which reveal my beliefs? Huh? What are you talking about?

it's an embarassment to our race the way some poeple behave to get into power or to stay in power. it happens with every single armenian organization, with maybe even the churches being the worst! is it they think the younger generation doesn't care or is not fit to lead. maybe they think that if they give it up they will never get it back. same happens with the church hierarchy.

i bet i could guss who that center of attention man is...

sirousho and her mom came to dinner with us last year around new year's while in armenia. she also sang at some paradon at the opera house around this time. my cousin is in love with that girl...

Ruth is a nice woman. She lent us pictures for our Armenian Club exhibit during my time in college in Boston.

The simple answer to your question, Arpa, would be no. We do not need two catholicosates. Oorakhatzar? jk I don't think this would be that big of a "problem" if the Great House of Cilicia only had affiliations in the Middle East. The fact that the "abandoned" churches in the US were taken under the wings of Antelias in 1956 has now created a sad situation. If Antelias only had control of a few places - like Syria, Lebanon, Cyprus, Greece (I'm not quite sure exactly off the top of my head where it had a historical presence before the ARF took over). Imagine what would happen if Torkom Manoogian began usurping churches in this former diocese. The Patriarchate in Jerusalem controls the churches in Jerusalem and Jordan. Etchmiadzin has absolutely no say in how elections are held there, how the churches are run, how the properties are managed - nothing. Jerusalem is like it's own empire - limited only by geographical boundaries. Constantinopel is the same way. If Antelias only had influence in the Middle East, I don't think this would be that big of a deal. they could still be a catholicosate because of historical reasons but would only have control over churches in that part of the world. This last sentence, Arpa, would be my detailed answer. I guess it would be a compromise - remain a catholicosate but with only limited jurisdiction. If one day there is unity in the US and Canada, Antelias' financial and moral support will dwindle substantially. I think both sides are to blame for the unity problem - there is a lot of blame to go around. The older generations have died and the younger generation is not as structured in terms of allegiances to one side or the other. I know people from AYF who are now involved with the AGBU Young Professionals. I know people who have gone to Camp Haiastan and were in AYF but participated in the Armenian Assembly's internship program. The barriers between the sides are melting away. There will be unity one day - not because people yearn for it or because of the hard work of unity committees but out of necessity. I think the churches are going to be so weakened by intermarriages, individuals who don't understand or speak Armenian, those that want the Divine Liturgy to be conducted in English, and a general apathy that a culmination of those factors will force the sides to unite. The hardliners in the Prelacy need to realize that the ARF still can have money and power and control but it doesn't have to be through the church. The hardliners in the Diocese need to start trusting their counterparts in the Prelacy, stop treating them like they don't exist, and starting looking at them as equals. True story - almost 10 years ago, January 1996, during the first pontifical visit of Karekin I to the Eastern Diocese, a dinner was held at the Walforf Astoria in NYC. Those on the dias were introduced by the MC. Mesrob Ashjian was there and when he was introduced, it was as "Archbishop from New York, Mesrob Ashjian." All of the other arachnorts were given their positions - Vatche Hovsepian was introduced as "Primate of the Western Diocese, Archbishop Vatche Hovsepian." Same thing for Khajag Barsamian. It's that kind of disrespect that angers a lot of people and makes them bitter. The Diocese acts as if the Prelacy doesn't exist. The people of the Prelacy are just as much the children of the Armenian Church as those in the Diocese. In terms of comparing the local churches - in three areas that I have personally witnessed - Watertown, Providence, and northern NJ - the prelacy churches do a better job of keeping the Armenian language in place and overall being "more Armenian." Compare St. Stephen's and St. James in Watertown; compare Sts. Vartanantz and St. Sahag and St. Mesrob in Providence; and compare Sts. Vartanantz and St. Thomas in NJ. I'm probably going to hear it about that comment so I'll end it there...

I don't understand your frustration. I don't see Aram or Karekin at the UN or visiting with diplomats in the place of Vartan or Robert or whoever. I don't see them visiting with Rumsfeld instead of Serge. Yes, they may go to the White House or meet with politicians, but not in their roles as "head of state" but rather as heads of the church. I have a friend named Arka - does that mean he is a king?

Order the new Mesrob Ashjian book from the Prelacy bookstore. It's only 50 dollars and it has his entire life story in it. Well worth it. I ordered 4 copies as gifts. He went to Princeton. Choloyan was also at Princeton I think. Aram I was at Fordham. Karekin I was at Oxford.

I saw Adiss perform a few times in Boston in the late 1990s. I also saw him in NJ at a wedding in 2003 and then at a big event with other singers - Manuel, Hovig Krikorian and the pianist Armen Aharonian - in 2004. Adiss is probably the best. I don't know what people see in Manuel or Paul. The only one that compares is Harout Pamboukjian, but he and Adiss cater to different groups. And of course Karnig is tops for heghapoghagan songs... Menk Angeghdz Zeenvor Enk, Kuntag Vorodadz, etc.

We have had 2 catholicosates since 1441. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. If anything, we should be proud that we have two along with two patriarchates. The amount of wealth that we have in Jerusalem is astounding - the land, the shared custodianships with the Catholics and the Greeks, the churches, the material riches, our own Quarter in the Old City. I don't know too much about Constantinople except that the first few clergymen sent to the US over a hundred years ago were from there and not from Etchmiadzin. Control then passed to Etchmiadzin once a Diocese was formally organized. Like I wrote in the other posts - the value of what Antelias (the Great House of Cilicia) has contributed over the past 75 years can not and should not be diminished. I have been to Antelias, Jerusalem and Etchmiadzin and they are all impressive. I don't see how Antelias can be shut down or sold. I know some who might advocate that it be converted into a Patriarchate so that we'll have three Patriarchates and only one Catholicosate. Karekin I is already known as Catholicos of All Armenians - I don't think anyone doubts his supremacy. Perhaps people are angry about Aram I because he seems to steal the show. There is no comparison between the dynamic style of Aram I and the mellow demeaner of Karekin II. Aram is a protege of Karekin I and tries to emulate his speaking style. He is also a brilliant ecumenist and is highly eduated. The one thing that Antelias can be proud of is its seminary and the high levels of education its clergymen attain even after the seminary. Karekin I, Aram I, Oshagan Choloyan, Mesrob Ashjian and many others have advanced degrees, some having multiple advanced degrees.

The fact that we have four heirarchical sees can be a good thing for Armenians. I will write more from home. I'm about to leave my office.

I assume you mean that Karekin I was "invited" by LTP... There was probably even more arm twisting in the 1999 election of Karekin II. The government got its way again... I remember after Armenia became independent, some hardcore tashnag family friends were dismayed that the government took "our flag" and "our anthem" and then "our vehapar." I love it!

If we should continue this debate we better move to a more proper subject topic. I think this is a great topic and I agree with you on many points. By the way, Aram I has been to Etchmiadzin - I saw him there at the funeral of Karekin I and he was also there at the consecration of Karekin II. And I do agree that times have changed and things are different now. I think the split in the USA is a big problem. Please create a topic in the page you think is appropriate and I'll continue there.

I don't understand the criticism of the song's lyrics. Should all Armenian patriotic songs about 1918 and that era also be forgotten? What about the songs about Artsakh's liberation?

I love Haleb - I've been 5 times and each time gets better. I was there last year for New Year's and it was a great time.

Jerusalem and Constantinople have been around for a very long time. As for Antelias, that is the name of the town. It is not an Armenian word. The Great House of Cilicia was in Cilicia for hundreds of years and only 80 years ago came to Lebanon. Perhaps efforts to keep it alive with the assistance of Near East Relief should not have happened, but for historical purposes there have been 2 catholicoi for almost 600 years. This is nothing new. To blame Aram I would be a mistake I think. For 70 years of communist rule, Antelias and Jerusalem were preparing the clergy - Karekin Sarkissian, Aram Keshishian, Mesrob Ashjian, Torkom Manoogian, Vatche Hovsepian, Khoren I, Zareh I, Tiran Nersoyan - all children of the Antelias Seminary or Jerusalem. The contributions made by those two places cannot be diminished. Only now that Etchmiadzin is no longer under communist rule can Armenians turn to that institution and that seminary. Up until 1956, all of the churches in the US contributed greatly to the Great House of Cilicia. When Karekin II was elected in 1995 and made the move from Antelias to Etchmiadzin many speculated that it might mean the end for the Great House of Cilicia. I don't espouse the notion of Aram I that Cilicia should be the Catholicosate for the diaspora and Etchmiadzin should worry only about Armenia, but I don't think we can undermine the efforts of the Great House of Cilicia or discount the contributions it has made to the Armenian nation, especially during the last 75 years.

The wedding is in Rio. I'll have to ask my friends how far that is from the square.

My family was in Aleppo last year around this time as we have a lot of family there who are actively involved with the Perio Tem. I will ask them about it's terminology. I noticed the same thing.

I'm going to a wedding in Brazil in May 2006 - I'm going to try to check this place out.

No one I know says "nard," but I have heard "nardee" in Armenia and wherever I've seen Hayastantzis. Everyone else I know from the Middle East and in the USA says tavloo or tavlee. Do the people in Armenia use the Turkish/Kurdish or whatever language it is for the numbers - like shesh besh, eekee beer, etc. The guys in our family here in the NJ play "tavlee," use shesh besh and similar terms, drink scotch or oghi, and feast off a bowl of "moushekel" from Haleb. (mixed nuts)

I just tried to read the instructions for belote and it is too confusing for me... I would rather stick to tavloo.