TMNT

This is a semi related question, but what makes Turkey and Azerbaijan more democratic than Russia and Armenia? Is there a certain level of "democracy"? What is the deal? I would appreciate a solid answer, no analogies please.

Med, I will pick a "swarty" Arab over any Zionist Jew. Like they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Armenians can't be picky when it comes to allies. At the moment this is how the geopolitical battlefield looks like. "Undemocratic Nations " Russia Iran Armenia Greece Cyprus France China Syria vs. "Democratic Nations" Turkey Israel United States United Kingdom Japan Georgia Azerbaijan I would add Kurds to the first list, but they are a wild card. There is really no concise Kurdish ally or enemy, they claim land from both Turkey and Armenia, which is kind of counter productive for their cause. I hold no bias towards any nation, my opinions are formulated through studying various historic and contemporary sources and if you would like an explaination let me know. To sum it up, any nation labeled "undemocratic" by American news agencies is an Armenian ally.

So, why even ask Turkey to admit the Genocide? By your logic, it is ok for the United States to make unethical decisions to push it's agenda forward, so, why not uphold the same standards against Turkey? Turks are just upholding the territorial integrity of their former state (AKA the Ottoman Empire) and just like the United States are protecting their own interests, so, why the double standard when it comes to Turkey?

My only intention was the show the hypocrisy of Israel and the Jewish lobby, which represents the Jewish people like the Armenian lobby represents Armenians. As long as they support Turkey, I have a right to criticize them. As long as they lobby against our interests, I can criticize their actions. Don't worry, seeing as to how they have a "unconditional relationship" with Turkey, I doubt my criticism will hamper Armenian-Jewish relations.

Armjan, the beautiful girl has repeatedly shown the middle finger to us, every year, for the last 90 years.

March of Living marks Holocaust More than 18,000 people have taken part in the annual March of the Living between the notorious Auschwitz and Birkenau death camps in Poland. It comes 60 years after the camps were liberated by Soviet troops. More than one million people, most of them European Jews, were murdered by Nazi Germany in the two camps. Israeli PM Ariel Sharon, addressing the marchers, called for people to remember that the world stood by while six million Jews died in the Holocaust. Speaking at a memorial gathering at Birkenau after the march, he said: "Remember the victims and remember the murderers. HISTORY OF AUSCHWITZ Construction began in 1940 on site which grew to 40 sq km (15 sq mile) At least 1.1 million deaths, one million of them Jewish Other victims included Poles, Roma (Gypsies), Soviet POWs, homosexuals, disabled people and dissidents Of 7,000 Nazi guards, 750 were prosecuted and punished after the war "Remember how millions of Jews were led to their deaths and the world remained silent." Organisers said this year's march was the biggest yet. The 3km (2-mile) event, marking Holocaust Remembrance Day, began in 1988. It symbolises the death marches that took place when the Germans began emptying the camps and forcing prisoners to walk hundreds of kilometres in freezing weather with little food. Thousands died on the marches. [HMM...DOES THIS REMIND YOU OF ANYTHING?] Mr Sharon was accompanied to southern Poland by 20 Holocaust survivors and 20 of their grandchildren, who are serving in the Israeli army. "With me are Holocaust survivors. Men and women who survived persecution, torture, mental and physical degradation; true heroes who experience the death marches, the deportations and searches, who survived ghettos, Auschwitz, Buchenwald... concentration and death camps whose monstrous names are carved in blood in the history of our people," he said. The prime ministers of Poland and Hungary also took part in the event. Some 450,000 Hungarian Jews were killed at Auschwitz. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4515537.stm Published: 2005/05/05 16:22:23 GMT © BBC MMV

Like I said, my intention is not to argue, but to put things in perspective. I don't like to sugarcoat problems. You know where I stand with the U.S.; it’s a police state trying to procure foreign resources in order to satisfy its hunger for consumer goods. Regarding Armenians, the decline of the Armenian people is due to their belief that they can create small Armenia ghettos in foreign countries. They would rather live like gypsies, jumping from country to country, leaving behind their churches for the natives to plunder then actually live in their own country, building churches for their next generation to use. Nakharar, that is exactly my point, in the past, fate has dispersed us to all corners of the world, but, today, "fate" is not stopping anyone from going back. I am not a staunch Armenian nationalist, I don't even attend functions by most Armenian organizations, but even I am not blind to the obvious solution of Armenia's problems and eventually end to the Diaspora. I just feel that our purpose should not be Genocide recognition, it should be migrating back, as Armenians, willing to live in Armenia. Genocide recognition is important, but its in the past, conversly, Armenia is our future. It's a really complex issue that ties together the U.S., the Diaspora, and Armenia. To be honest, there really is no right answer, we just have to live by example. I would go further into detail, but it will just drag it out.

Sorry, I apologize, it was not my intention to insult Armjan. I respect him and his opinions and if anything this goes to show how much the Diaspora is willing to sacrifice for the nations they reside in. He is a very intelligent person and I would consider him Armenian any day of the week. The intention of my post was misunderstood.

I really don't like arguing on forums, so, please don't drag this out. Good question, I write in English because the vast majority of Armenians speak English rather then Armenian. The irony, we have preserved a 2,000 year old dead language. By the way, writing in English and claiming I am English are entirely two different things. I don't vouch for the United States, as an "American" I am against its foreign policy. I am brave enough to admit that what Americans are doing is wrong and I certainly don't want anyone to do anything in my name. All we have become for the world is a nation of consumers. We are just born to work and buy products, nothing more or less. If you are content with this purpose in life in life then by all means be an American. No, I never forced you to do anything. I respect your opinions and I never stated that you are or are not Armenian. However, you yourself have stated that you are American, so, why the 180 degrees now? I just have a problem with claiming that you can be "American", while you are "Armenian". Maybe in life you can have a dual identity, but in politics you can't really walk the fence. I just don't buy that argument and never will. This stems from my resentment of the attitude previous generation, they put so much emphasis on being Armenian, but yet any mention of moving back and they get hysterical. Really think about this, you claim you are American, but yet come to a Armenian forum to post your opinions? As far as your assumption that I do not have a "part-time hobby" is concerned, all I can say is don't make personal judgments. You post on these boards more often then me, so, please don't go there. I also never stated that I am "somebody", I could be a bum, who posts from random places, or a world renowned surgeon. Yes, it has had a wonderful past and now the economic growth of the United States is leveling. Rome lasted for only 500 years, while the Byzantine Empire lasted for 1,000 years, thus, before the U.S. can claim their "ideals" are superior over others, they still have at least 300 years to go. We need to leave our attitude of supremacy at the door. You assume too much, Russia, France, and much of Europe have committed equal if not worse crimes because of colonization, however, the underlying difference is that Europe does not force its foreign policy on other nations in the name of democracy. The righteous attitude of the U.S. is disgusting and this same "righteous" attitude is what I dislike, not in my name. Like I stated earlier, on the whole American supplies did help the Soviet army, but it was because of Russian manpower that tipped scales in the Allies favor. They knew this and that is why they made various pacts in Stalin's favor. Today every history book you open it states that the U.S. won the war and because of this everyone should worship America. My point was already proven by your utter devotion to the United States. The country was found on the same principles that destroyed Armenians, but not suprisingly every Armenian is oblivious to this. No, I am not living in a cave. I am pointing out the problems of Armenians and why for 2,000 we have not amounted to anything significant, while other nations, who we influenced, have risen above us. We claim we are Armenians, we claim we are so "smart", but yet no one on these boards is willing to move back to Armenia. Instead, to mask our guilty conscious we continually send money to Armenia in a vain attempt to make the country better, but the reality is that if we want anything done, we have to do it ourselves, not depend on green dollars to do it for us. When I referred to the Ottoman Empire, I was referring to is the shear ignorance by most Armenians towards history. Do you agree that the only objective of the Ottoman Empire was to wipe Armenian presence off the map? Yes, this was there objective, so, if this was the objective, wouldn't it be safe to assume that we are already on our way to completing their objection by staying in countries that force assimilation on us? Yes, so, please explain to me why I should care about April 24 if no Armenian in their right mind will ever go back to Armenia? If you are a full fledged American then the massacre of a few Armenians should not really be important in the grand scheme of things. In addition, the mention of moving back or doing anything for Armenia to the previous generation is quickly followed by ridicule. Sorry, but I just don't get the Diaspora philosophy. Twenty years ago I did understand it. There was no Armenian nation and thus, there was a purpose behind maintaining your roots, but today we don't have that excuse. They want the future generation, people like you, to stay Armenian, but don't want them to move back to Armenia. It is obvious that your never going to move back, so, why put this responsibility on the next generation? What is the purpose of the Diaspora? I am not calling you a "Turk", but Armenians in the Ottoman Empire were supporting the Young Turk regime. Apparently, the massacre of 400,000 by the earlier Ottoman leaders was not a clear enough signal that they need to rebel and revolt. My point, this country is a ally of Turkey. The tax dollars you pay goes towards arming Turkey. In addition, the very same money they give to Turkey is used to fund propaganda against Armenians domestically, here in the states, and abroad. Conclusion, don't blindly devote yourself to any cause. Every entity has a purpose, I can piece together the purpose of Americans, the need to consume world products, but when it comes to the Armenian Diaspora, there seems to be no purpose. In nature cockroaches are also the best survivors, so, does that mean survival is necessary the right choice?

Collective idea? They are clueless and the irony behind it is that the "ancient homeland" he speaks of was already taken by Kurds in the name of Turks. They were promised a Kurdistan a long time ago. He should vent his anger towards the Turks. In Turkey, 1 in 4 Turks are Kurds and 1 in 3 soldiers in the Turkish army are Kurds, therefore, he has a much better chance forming a Kurdistan out of Turkey then Armenia. Kurdistan, Armenia will never succeed any territory for Kurds nor do we have obligation to. If any nation has a debt of gratitude that needs to be cashed it is Turkey, go seek your fortune there.

Armjan, the only reason the United States is a superpower is due to its role in WW2. It is a well known fact that if it was not for the losses sustained by Europe and the Soviet Union, America would still be a third world country. Industrially speaking, prior to WW2 the United States was still way behind Europe. The United States was still a developing nation. It was directly due to its involvement in WW2 that triggered the industrialization of the country. Most of the military and civilian technology we see today was procured after the war through German and Japanese scientists. Our entire biological and nuclear capabilities stemmed from the research conducted by Axis forces. In fact, the foundation of American hegemony throughout the latter half the 20th century was due to its early nuclear capability. Much of its global strength was due to its supreme military might. This is evident today through this countries bullish attitude towards world problems, basically, Americans feel its "our way or the highway". Economically speaking after WW2 the United States sustained relatively minuscule amount of damage compared to Europe. It had the power to finance the recovery of Europe. To keep it short and sweet, it is not because of "good government" that the United is a current superpower, but rather, it lucked out and was unscathed by WW2. If Washington D.C. was bombed as badly as London or if the entire west coast would have witness the launching of Japanese Biological weapons then the U.S. would be singing a different tune today. In addition, I would like to point out that if it was not for the Russians, the U.S. would have lost WW2. Today, all we hear about is how "America saved Europe’s ass", but in reality it is the other way around. Russian manpower saved the U.S. and if it was not for the Armenian division of the Soviet Army Berlin would have not been breached. The Soviet division that broke through the German forces was actually an Armenian division, which is evident from the “weird dance” that did on WW2 footage. Now, after being handed the keys to the world, what has the U.S. done expect relied on a bias foreign policy? The U.S. has not contributed to the progression of mankind and much of its own problems are due to is capitalistic nature. Its heavy need for resources puts it at odds against much of the world. I also wanted to ask you... If being American is so great why do you come to Hyeforum? See this the problem I have with your opinion, if American society is "so great", "so modern", and "so advanced", why do you still cling to your culturally roots? Why put the prefix "Armenian" before the word "American"? Instead, why don't you adopt the "American culture" as your own? You salute the Red, White, and Blue, but yet every aspect of the United States that you pride yourself upon has not been represented by it for the last fifty years. To be honest, I have no problem with your American patriotism, but at least if you are going to be patriotic make sure you have thoroughly researched your adopted country’s past. Your enthusiasm makes me wonder why I should even do anything for April 24. Its seems to me that your patriotism was the same patriotism held by Ottoman born Armenians towards the Ottoman Empire and we all know how that ended. They also rallied behind the progressive “Young Turks”. Apparently 100 years ago Ottoman Armenians considered Suleiman their forefather, now, you considered Washington, Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin as yours, strange how history repeats itself.

Jews, throughout history have changed there last names to "conceal their identity". Today, you will find many Iranian Jews that have "ian" and "yan" at the end of their last name. They got kicked out of Iran the same way they got kicked out of Europe, the Middle-East, and Asia. By the way, the timing of your post and subject matter does concern me. Make sure the arms you push your people into are not the same arms that are dividing them.

http://isfsp.org/nov.html Check out this site, to be more specific, check out what happend on the 11th of November and what they recorded in the month of April.

This is not "media coverage", it is gutter journalism. How would Wolf Blitzer feel if every holocaust article concluded with "the German government claims that 20 million Germans died during the war"? Better yet, make it seem like it Israelis' are hypocrits because they are forced to work in Germany? Instead of stating so bluntly that Armenians illegally work in Turkey, why doesn't the author emphasize the border blockade by Turkey and Azerbaijan? Apparently, a step towards "democracy" in the eyes of the Jew filled media is blackmailing your neighbor or, for the sake of "political correctness", setting "preconditions".

Yes, it must be "objectivity" and "political correctness".

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41098000/jpg/_41098663_meetafp.jpg

What the hell does this mean? The report is on the "denial" of the Armenian genocide, so, could we assume that this is a ploy to ruin Armenia's credibility? Yes, we could assume this. I just don't understand why you would even cover the genocide if you are going to make asinine comments like this.

Turkish PM makes key Israel trip Turkish PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan has held talks in Israel to try to improve ties that have cooled in recent years. Mr Erdogan met Israeli counterpart Ariel Sharon with both saying the visit could help push forward the Middle East peace process. Turkey is seen as Israel's only friend in the Muslim world - the two states have strong military and economic ties. However, Mr Erdogan last year strongly criticised the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel. It is Mr Erdogan's first visit to Israel since taking office two years ago and only the second by a Turkish premier. Ramallah trip Mr Sharon said the two leaders had agreed to establish a prime minister-level hotline to share intelligence. Turkey can be a bridge for our relations with the Arab world Silvan Shalom Israeli Foreign Minister "We were very impressed by his offers and suggestions... I intend to take full advantage of this attempt to advance diplomatic efforts in the Middle East," Mr Sharon said. Mr Erdogan said: "I came here to contribute to the peace process in the Middle East. We are ready and prepared to contribute whatever is asked of us." Mr Erdogan had earlier laid a wreath at Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem and met President Moshe Katsav. On Monday, he will visit Jerusalem's al-Aqsa Mosque before heading on to Ramallah in the West Bank to meet Palestinian leaders. Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom told Israel radio: "Turkey can be a bridge for our relations with the Arab world. "Moderate Islam can hold a dialogue with Israel on joining forces to create a better future for all peoples of the region." Bilateral ties were strained last year when Mr Erdogan made a reference to "state terrorism" in relation to Israel's crackdown on the Palestinians. The BBC's Jonny Dymond in Istanbul says the governing party in Turkey has a large Islamist constituency that has little love for Israel. Our correspondent says that although Mr Erdogan is cooler towards Israel than some of his predecessors, a relationship that still strikes many as a curious one remains intact. Mr Erdogan had earlier hosted a meeting in Istanbul of foreign ministers from eight neighbouring countries, including Iraq. His visit to Israel is the first there by a Turkish premier since Tansu Ciller in 1994. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4503727.stm Published: 2005/05/01 21:14:25 GMT © BBC MMV

Nakharar, I agree with you. Apparently, he must not "feel" Armenian enough because he flat out spit on his Armenian identity. This again is Jewry at work. Notice, he ignores the fact that the same Russian born Jewish Oligarchs were the ones profiting from RUSSIAN resources. They put Russia in the privatization crisis. When they were making billions it was "ok", but now that Putin is pushing for a state run oil production, which is what the United States does, it is deemed a "threat". There is also this Russian born Jew that defected to the UK and took 15 billion in wealth from the Russian economy. What would they say if an American billionaire defected? How would the U.S. view Jews then? He must also be ignoring the fact that the U.S. has been stockpiling resources over the decades. They always keep 60% of their resources for national security, so, why is it now "undemocratic" for Putin to keep oil and mineral reserves? The Israeli double standard, they can sell arms to Turkey, which is a rival of Iran, Armenia, and Russia, but yet complain when Russia sells arms to Syria, a rival of Israel.

Jerusalem Post, Israel April 28 2005 Chess legend Kasparov to 'Post': Double-check Putin! By SAM SER As Russian President Vladimir Putin spent his first full day here on Thursday, legendary chess champion Garry Kasparov had a message for Israel: Don't trust him! In a telephone interview with The Jerusalem Post from Russia, Kasparov, who has retired from chess and is now a political rival of the president's, complained that Putin's regime is trampling on democratic principles and poses a serious threat to the rest of the world. He also said that Putin's reliance on support from ultranationalist forces could spell trouble for Russia's Jews, and he skewered Putin for strategic shortcomings that, he said, could imperil Israel. Russian sales of missiles to Syria and nuclear technology to Iran, for example, were misguided steps that should worry not only Israel, Kasparov said. Actually, he continued, they were proof that Putin and his regime "just want a short-term profit" and that they "don't think strategically, they can't think long-term." The Russian president had undermined democratic reforms installed by his predecessors, Kasparov added, citing strict controls on independent media and suggestions that Putin might force an alteration to the constitution that would allow him to remain in office for a third term. Kasparov also claimed that Putin was not only doing too little to combat the rising ant-Semitism in Russia, but charged that the former KGB officer's government even encouraged and instigated ultranationalist sentiment, with the security apparatus propping up far-right groups. "The only way to win support from the West is to make sure that everyone is scared of the threat of ultranationalist forces... so Putin presents himself as the only one who can stop them," Kasparov said. Parties such as Nashi, a pro-Putin "version of the brown-shirts," he said, create provocations that give the Russian president "a legal chance to use military forces in Russian streets." Attacking Putin is part of Kasparov's first foray into politics, as a leader of the liberal opposition group Committee 2008: Free Choice, since giving up professional chess in March. The 42-year-old is widely considered the game's best player ever. For years, though, Kasparov - originally named Gari Weinstein after his Jewish father, he took on a Russian version of his Armenian mother's maiden name as a teen after his father died - has been an outspoken supporter of Israel in the international arena. He has visited the country several times, especially to strengthen the Tel Aviv chess club established in his name. Kasparov told The Post he believed that Israel's Russian immigrant population should speak out to draw the West's attention to the dangers that Putin's regime poses. "Western leaders don't care at all about Putin and [his record on] democracy as long as he can provide them with some sort of stability in Russia," he said, "but Putin is not providing stability at all. The Chechen war is spreading, with Islamists joining what was once a nationalist separatist fight, and increasing terrorism dramatically... so Russia is actually less safe today than it was before" Putin took office. He also criticized the economic performance of Putin's government, saying that the economy was precariously dependent on high oil prices and was growing too slowly, and that the government "has proven it is incapable of using oil profits to solve social problems." "They are simply postponing all the key problems that Russia is facing today, because they don't know how to deal with them," Kasparov said. Further, Kasparov said, the targeting of wealthy businessmen, such as former Yukos magnate Mikhail Khodorkovsky, is an attempt by Putin and his associates to control the country's capital. "The attack on Yukos is an attack against free business in Russia," he said. "Khodorkovsky is in jail not because he didn't pay taxes, but because he was ready to pay taxes... because he was paying his money to the Treasury, and not to Kremlin bosses. Unwillingness to cooperate with KGB rule is the key reason behind the [legal] attack." "Even the czarist regimes were more legitimate and more productive for the interests of Russia" than Putin's regime, he said. Leveling such sharp criticism at Putin from within Russia could be dangerous. Indeed, several Yukos partners who have fled to Israel claim that they were targeted for prosecution by Putin because of their vocal political opposition to the government. Being half-Jewish, Kasparov would be eligible to make aliya should he find himself under similar or even worse threats. "I don't even want to discuss a situation in which I would be forced to leave my native country," he said. "I doubt I would ever have to leave... but I would consider all possibilities."

You are right, we can't ban anyone for a difference in opinion, but an opinion is only held for situations that fall under a gray area and even then, there is one right opinion. In the case of the AG, there is no "gray area". It has gone far beyond opinions and debate. We have given the Turks enough time to resort to "historians" for answers and therefore, based on this observation we should ban anyone who denies the reality of the AG. The third choice, will just be sending out the message that the AG is debatable.

The BBC is the Trojan Horse and apparently the Brits think we are the Trojans. I'll admit, a portion of the Armenian government is corrupt, but at least it is our government. We don't need a "western" backed opposition to come and tell us how to run our country. If the west wants tributes let them get it from Georgia because Armenians will never pay homage to anyone but an Armenian. Just read the BBC articles on the Cyprus-Turkish stalemate. There is this one reporter named Johnny Dymond, who always tries to persuade everyone of the "democratic", "western", and "secular" nature of Turkey. Most of his articles fails to mention the Armenian Genocide and revisionist theories of the Turkish Government. In my opinion, it is all a ploy, the west wants docile Armenia. They want us to become beggars and ask them for economic aid, thus, continually remaining under their control. On the other hand, Russia and Tehran are trying to impose their own will, but at least they are not allied with our enemies. If anything this goes to show how corrupt the world is and how important Armenia's future is to the west. The Pro-Turkish stance of Georgia reiterates my sentiments and mistrust of western backed media outlets. The Georgian government continually puts up a neutral front, but in reality they have joined the Turkish and Azeri camp. If Georgia is indeed backed by the west then we should be VERY careful of any western backed media outlet. Next thing you know, they will dub another “revolution” in Armenia.

http://www.sarkissianmason.com/denial/ At this point, I can't even describe it as "denial". If these are the the "progressive", "western", and "secular"" Turks that want to join the European Union then how "barbaric", "hypocritical", and "dishonest" are regular "barbaric", "hypocritical", and "dishonest" Turks?

Just one thing to add... It is not nations that dictate borders. The Roman Empire was one of the largest Empires to date, but where are Romans today? There are numerous other examples of borders shifting. Nations are born, while other nations crumble, but what remains the same are the people. Meaning, nations are only as good as the people that population them. You want land back, increase your population and let it spill over into your neighbor’s backyard.

I'll PM you, I have a hunch most of these Armenian sites are read by Turkish tanks.