TMNT

I am assuming you are trying to "ridicule" me, which is fine seeing as to how this a message board, but if those lands are not taken back then the Turkish government wins. Yes, maybe for a few years they will be looked down upon by the international community for their crimes against humanity, but in the end they will have completed their objective. By the way, welcome to the forum.

This is appraently on the front page of BBC Europe. Obvious attempt to avoid the AG, well, everything so far is a obvious attempt to avoid the AG, but this is just obvious. I wonder how much ass the Turkish government had to kiss in order to get a full fledged invite to the event. I have been an active reader of the BBC for 3 years now and never have they ever covered anything related to WW1. By the way, if it is no problem can one of the moderators move the article to AG or events section, thanks in advance.

Gallipoli dead remembered at dawn The World War I landing of Australian and New Zealand troops in Gallipoli 90 years ago has been marked with a dawn ceremony beneath its cliffs. Australian Prime Minister John Howard, his New Zealand counterpart Helen Clark and Britain's Prince Charles attended. The prince read a psalm and more than a dozen wreaths were laid. Tens of thousands of soldiers, 21,000 British and Irish troops among them, died in the eight-month 1915 campaign aimed at capturing Istanbul. In Sydney, Australian veterans were among a record crowd of more than 20,000 people who gathered in Martin Place to mark Anzac Day and the nearly 9,000 Australians who died during the hostilities in north-western Turkey. 'National identity' The site of the dawn service at Gallipoli is named Anzac Cove after the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps who landed there on 25 April 1915. Thousands of visitors from the two countries attended what was expected to be the largest gathering ever at the site. Mr Howard said the Anzacs had "changed forever the way we saw our world and ourselves, they bequeathed Australia a lasting sense of national identity, they sharpened our democratic temperament and our questioning eye towards authority". "They came to do their bit in a mobilisation not of their making..., they forged a legend whose grip on us rises tighter with each passing year." Ms Clark traced the beginning of New Zealand's statehood to the landings. "It was here that our young nations began to come of age, it was here that we began to think of ourselves not just as servants of the British Empire but as distinct national identities," she said. At the end of the ceremony the Turkish flag was raised to fly next to those of Australia and New Zealand. At a ceremony on Sunday in honour of fallen Turkish troops, also attended by Ms Clark and Mr Howard, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan underscored how the nations that fought each other at Gallipoli had since developed "friendship and co-operation". Many historians trace the rise of Australian nationalism to the Gallipoli landings. Stalemate The Allies - intending to occupy Constantinople (now Istanbul) the capital of the Ottoman empire - failed to throw back the Turkish defenders and a long and bloody stalemate ensued. Over the years Gallipoli has come to be thought of by some as an Australian and New Zealand operation, says the BBC's Turkey correspondent Jonny Dymond. But nearly 9,000 French, 21,000 British and Irish and 86,000 Turkish troops died attacking and defending the thin strip of land. The dawn service from Gallipoli was televised throughout Turkey. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4479843.stm Published: 2005/04/25 05:56:18 GMT © BBC MMV

SUCH UTTER B******T! *COUGH* NATALIE ANTELAVA IS A GEORGIAN FREELANCE JOURNALIST *COUGH* Armenians remember mass killings By Natalia Antelava BBC News, Yerevan Armenians around the world have commemorated the 90th anniversary of the killings of hundreds of thousands of people by the Ottoman Empire. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians took to the streets of Yerevan to pay their respects to the victims. Armenian President Robert Kocharian is leading an effort for recognition of the killings as genocide. But Turkey is resisting the effort, saying the killings were merely casualties of war. The crowds marched in mourning and remembrance, in a seemingly endless human chain moving slowly up the hill towards the monument to Armenia's most painful memory. Foreign delegates and politicians were the first to come and go. Then, it was just people, hundreds of thousands of women, men and children, only a very few of them old enough to remember what Armenians call the first genocide the 20th Century. It took hours in the unbearable heat to get up to the memorial that honours victims of the massacres that began in 1915. Ninety years ago, on the night of 24 April, the government of Ottoman Turkey rounded up about 250 leaders of the empire's Armenian community. Some were deported, others executed. Over the next two years nearly 1.5 million Armenians were reportedly killed or died during deportations from Turkey. Open door to genocide To this day, many Armenians believe it was the killing of their people that paved the way to the Holocaust. We can't let our children forget what happened - the world does not pay attention to Armenia as it is, so we should do our best to keep reminding them Borseb Gevorkian, an Armenian from Lebanon "After all, who remembers the annihilation of the Armenians," Hitler has been quoted as saying. Armenians around the world say it is essential for them to remember. "We can't let our children forget what happened. The world does not pay attention to Armenia as it is, so we should do our best to keep reminding them," said Borseb Gevorkian, who came from Lebanon to join the march. At the beginning of the 20th Century, Mr Gevorkian's grandparents fled Turkey for Lebanon, a country which is now home to a large part of Armenia's huge Diaspora. It is believed that there are three times the number of ethnic Armenians in Lebanon than in Armenia itself, which has a population of three million. "This is an important occasion. After all, it's us - the members of the diaspora whose parents were deported and killed. I think that's why it was important for us to be here." he said. Demands for recognition But many will argue that it is the people who live today in the impoverished Armenia that are most haunted by the past. Ninety years later, Armenia has no diplomatic relations with Turkey and its borders are sealed, hampering much-needed development of Armenia's struggling, post-Soviet economy. Armenian President Robert Kocharian says the country does not want financial compensation from Turkey. What Armenians want is for Turkey, and the world, to recognise what happened as genocide. An increasing number of governments are already doing so. France, Russia, Poland and Germany are among 15 nations that say that the genocide did take place. They are calling on Turkey to follow the suit. But Turkey says the numbers of those killed are grossly inflated and that the Armenians were casualties of World War I, not genocide. As Ankara prepares to start its EU membership talks in October, Armenia hopes for Europe will push Turkey to change its stance as did the thousands of those who marched on Sunday. They marched not only in commemoration but also in demand for the world to recognise what everyone in Armenia believes, that they suffered the first genocide of the 20th Century. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4478919.stm Published: 2005/04/24 15:22:50 GMT © BBC MMV NO YOU W***E, IT IS NOT JUST ARMENIANS IN ARMENIA. EDITED for language/rudeness - I understand your anger/frustration, but please tone down the language and the huge font sizes. Thanks in advance.

Armen, anyway you look at, Armenia has two destinies. It can either be subjigated for another 2,000 years or with a little bit of devotion can become a small, but self sufficient country. However, this will not occur if Armenians continually push for Armenian interests outside of Armenia. To a certain extent it is important for to have a voice in the Russian Duma or the United States Congress, but we must make sure we are not sentencing ourselves to death by staying in nations that push for assimilation. Remember, you can't always walk the fence and at one point you will have to decide which side you are on. I don't have the luxury of converting anyone into an Armenian. Let us make sure we make decisions that will guarantee our survival on the world stage. This is why it is important to attain as much resources as we can. Let me ask you, if land is unimportant, why is America is sitting on acres of undeveloped land? Why is Turkey is so motivated to keep the land it took from Armenians? Yes, let’s face it, if land is worthless why is it that Turks are so keen on keeping almost 90% of our historical Armenia? I understand that you are trying to be “rational”, but no one is demanding anything, but “undeveloped”, “worthless”, and “resource less” land, so, why would Turkey object if we attempted a land grab? When you give up your claims to your historical land then you also give up your claims to your history.

A semi-solid analysis written in ten minutes: Ok, so we can assume that Turkey will ethier... 1. Join the European Union (EU) 2. Form a Pan-Turkish block 3. Continue on as a member of the American-Israeli-Turkish Axis 4. Form alliance with Russia Regional affairs that could affect Armenia... 1. Destabilization of Iran 2. Rise of China as world power 3. The Tehran-Bajing-Moscow-Yerevan quartet TURKEY, THE NEXT STEP: 1. The EU scenario or as I have come to dub it as the "lose/lose" situation... There are two possible outcomes (A) Turkey joins the EU and uses its vote in favor of Azarbaijan or (B ) Turkey does not join the EU and embraces Islam, thus, instead of looking west begins looking east, eyeing Armenia in the process. (A) Pro: By Turkey joining the EU, it falls under the jurisdiction of the EU, therefore, Armenia has a limited gurantee that it will not try to invade or, for a lack of better term, "bully" Armenia. This gives Armenia a chance to get out underneath Russian and American pressure and thus, take a nuatral stance on world politics (Become somthing like Switzerland). Con: If Turkey joins the EU, it will do everything in its power to resolve the Karabagh conflict in favor of Azerbaijan and in general, will try to hinder the progression of Armenia through its massive voting power. Germany will most likly ally itself with Turkey and eventually both nations will have solidified their influence on the direction of the EU. (B ) If Turkey does not join the EU it will most likly shift its focus towards the East. It will try to "reconcile" differences with the other Islamic nations, but due to its Pro-Israeli stance, it will most likly find no reliable ally among them. This will push Turkey into desperation and eventually will lead it towards Pan-Turkism. 2. Pan-Turkism is a VERY SCARY REALITY. If Turkey is pushed towards the edge, it will no doubt resort to Pan-Turkism. Now, you may be think this is a bit of stretch, but recent nationalistic sentiments do indicate that the Turkish population sees the push for EU membership as a cop-out approach. They feel their "Turkish/Muslim" heritage has become 2nd to EU membership and in recent newspaper articles I have read (I can't find them right now, was on groong) the sentiments of Turks are as nationalistic as they were 100 years ago. If such a block was formed it would have the largest oil, mineral, and gas reserves in the world, now, don't you think that is enough of a incentive to form a Turkish block?Russians did not keep Soviet Armenia for the sake of Armenians, but rather, it is the perfect defensive buffer in case of a Pan-Turkish push by Turkey. 3. Turkey can revitalize the American-Israeli-Turkish axis. I doubt this will happen mainly due to the recent fallout between Washington and Ankara, not to mention the recent statements by Turkish politicians that label Israel as a terrorist state. In addition, Turks hate the U.S. as much as any Islamic fundimentalist, therefore, the will of Turks will not allow their government to pursue this path. Recent books like Metal Storm, which depict a regional war between Turkey and the U.S. over Iraq, indicates that Turks do not consider America a ally. 4. Lastly, Turkey can form a alliance with Russia. This would basically only be a economic alliance like the one between China and the U.S. What Ankara will try to do is isolate Armenia even further by befriending the only Superpower in the region (AKA Russia). This outcome is up in the air, there is dialog between Turkey and Russia, but to what extent no one really knows. Therefore, it is crucial for Armenia to strenghten its ties with the U.S. in case Turkey decides to take this approach. I highly doubt Turkey will take this approach mainly because it has historically seen Russia as a rival to its power in the region. Furthermore, once Turkey does take this step it would have offically severed its ties with the U.S. and EU. OTHER REGIONAL AFFAIRS: 1. The destablization of Iran will create more problems for Armenia. First, Iran is another nation Armenia has a somewhat cordially historic ties with. They are the 3rd regional power and have their own interests in Armenia. They view Armenia as a western outpost in which they can use to further their own national interests on the global stage. Lastly, there are Armenians in Iran and are in good standing with the Islamic Government. If the government in Iran is brought down by a western backed opposition and replaced by a pro-western puppet government then it will most likly mean that Armenia can not look towards Iran as a 2nd option. Once Iran is controlled by the west (AKA Israel) then Armenia will have to go through the U.S. in order to voice its opinion and seeing how the U.S. is a supporter of Israel, who counts on Turkey, I don't think this would be beneficial to the progress of Armenia. A western backed opposition might give Azerbaijan a chance to annex Northern Iran through Turkish pressur. Turkey would like to see a unified Iraq and a divided Iran, thus, it would be in their interests to push for Iran's destabilization. 2. The rise of China as a superpower in the region should also be considered considering how much China has invested in both Russia and Iran. China is growing beyond its ability to fuel the growth, therefore, it needs any energy source possible. This is why we are seeing more Chinese influence on Iranian political issues, which indirectly affect Armenia. Furthermore, the Chinese are in a biding war with Japan over the development of Russian oil reserves. This means that Armenia can use its good ties with Russia and Iran to strenghten its ties with China, thus, opening up a spot for a new regional player. 3. Well, on the plus side there is a sort of quartet that is being formed to oppose Turkey-Israel-America. I was reading Fourtune recently and apprently China has invested a lot of resources (i.e. technology) in the development of Iran for the exclusive rights to develop Iran's oil reserves. In addition, Russia has been selling arms to China, while at the same time selling oil reserve development contracts to Chinese investors. This ties the problems of Iran, Russia, China, and Armenia together, thus, forming a block against Turkey-Israel-America. END OF ANALYSIS

Yeah, let’s beg the Jew, who was selling Israeli military packs to Azerbaijan during the wars of early 90's and was incidentally leveling Armenian neighborhoods in Lebanon. We can just ignore the fact that Jews, for almost half a century, have been selling their old military hardware to Turkey. What is your fascination with the Jew? Why are you forcing us to convert to Judaism? You seriously have a inferiority complex. How can you trust the very same group that is profiting from the Turkish war machine?

Armen, your humanitarian gesture is only fitting for nations that strive to uphold humanitarian ideals and in no way am I vilifying Turks, but the sentiments from Turkey are a strong indication that they are still eyeing the ideas of a Pan-Turkish block. Just look at the map, the only nation that is a roadblock is Armenia. History will either see the expansion of Armenia or the unification of Azerbaijan, not both. How much of the United States is developed? How much of Russia? How much of China? How much of Israel? Not much, so, we can concur that population is not a precondition for any sort of land compensation or land grab. Those lands are very IMPORTANT to any nation. Land is a resource and since resources are scarce we must strive to get them back. I just came back from a Armenian engagement and on the drive back I was thinking about the many aspects of the Genocide and anyway you slice the pie, I always come to the conclusion that the Turkish lobby, government, and people in general are not really keen on playing within the bounds of international protocol. At this engagement, I was speaking with a few "intellectuals" and they were just shocked that after 90 years of denial the Turkish youth still supports the ridiculous rhetoric of the Turkish Government. With this being said, earlier I stated that our Genocide is not so much different then the Native-American genocide committed by the United States and yes, it still is no different, but in no way should that stop us from claiming what is rightfully ours. Whether it is through compensation or restitution, those lands belong to us and therefore, we will get them back one way or another Let’s face it, Turkey does not strive to high "moral" standards so why should we? We would be fools to "avoid" any opportunity for a land grab.

Ok, what does the post-Soviet emigration have to do with compensation? The topic is about compensation and how Turkey can avoid it. You can paint the truth any way you want to, but the Diaspora lives in nations that have activily taken part in Genocide. ALL the English colonies have systematically exterminated their native population, so, what makes the Armenian Genocide different then the Native-America? Why should we get compensation?

IF you want compensation, go grab a gun and take back what is yours because Turkey is not obligated to give anything back. Let us assume that Turkey gives us compensation, does this mean Americans need to give Natives their land back? What about the Irish and the Scotts? So, is it safe to assume that America supports Turkey because they share a similar past? Yes, I think we could assume that they do share similar past, therefore, we do look like hypocrits when we live in the United States and complain about the actions of Turkey.

... EDIT: Just moving along.

Wow, I thought I was a radical.

No, I am not preaching about abstinence, but you do sound silly trying to blame the spread of HIV on the traditional dogma of the Catholic Church. The Pope does not have Africans at gun point, forcing them to procreate. I just don’t like the approach of self proclaimed “progressive” thinkers. Their values are not any better and they have tendency to oppose what they failed to follow. Let us get something straight, all the decisions I have made, I have made based on my own needs. I certainly have never based them on anyone’s standard but my own, therefore, I do not expect anything less from anyone else. No one is forcing you to follow Catholicism, but if you do, you should follow the teachings of the Pope, regardless of how “trendy”or “progressive” they are. Faith is faith, if you are not willing to have faith in your own beliefs I would suggest you stop believing in religion because when everything is said and done, religion is about faith.

Yeah, I think it is because of the Pope's emphasis of traditional values that is forcing Africans to have unprotected sex and proliferate HIV at an alarming rate, not to mention, strike up a population growth for which there is not enough food to support. Yes, down with the traditional values of the church that have thus far prevented these two huge problems from getting out of hand in third world countries. Yes, nothing like reformist methods that would get rid of these traditional safeguards and make things all better.

Well, it does not take more than one person to betray a village.

Agreed, Kurds, Jews, and Turks, let them all wallow in their own shit. Armenians for Armenians, Armenians for Armenia!

Well, they may speak Armenian, but it would be REALLY hard to accept anyone so far gone as an Armenian. A few of them could have been the one or two Armenians that sold out entire Armenian villages like Ben Ohanian in Markar Melkonians new book. By the way, does anyone have a picture of how they look like?

Well, at least the Armenian alphabet has 38 letters instead of 845798375983275298047529457.

Just a note, the way you talk about how "great" it is to be Jewish or how ALL Armenians should whore themselves out to Israel, makes it seem like you have inferiority complex.