onnig

Sako*****, Here is but a few: 1.) The Badarak 2.) The mediatorial priesthood to absolve sin 3.) Salvation by works (i.e. baptism) 4.) Worship of saints (i.e. Mary) 5.) Veneration of idols and relics Onnig (after posting the word P A S H A, it was censored. Unbelievable!!)

You don't really believe this way, do you? What about the Christian Turks who just recently were brutally martyred for Christ: http://www.armeniansforchrist.com/modules....icle&sid=26 I'm sure you don't feel they, who were martyred, were animals also, do you? Onnig

Exactly so, where it prevails above being a Christian and following Christ. Please read my article I just posted on "Too Many Mundane Issues" and you'll see why I feel this way.

Very easy. The Bible is not only Scripture but also a historical document pointing to the practice of Christ AND the Apostles of the true form of Christianity. Once the gospel of the Armenian Church is compared to the true gospel of Christ, rest assured you will find great discrepencies. You have yet to respond to any of my articles that point to these discrepencies with the Armenian Church and Scripture. So I have already made the biblical argument and am waiting for a response from you or anyone. The Bible is the final authority. It alone guides doctrine. I abide by that principle of the Reformers which is Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone. Any history of doctrine of a church that is in contrast to the clear doctrines in the Bible is only a history of doctrines of fallen and depraved men who have forsaken the great principle of Sola Scriptura that Christ and the Apostles held to. Onnig

You may be right my friend, I hope you are. My prayers continue for the church and my countrymen. One thing I didn't quite understand, you said, When exactly did this happen? Do you mean the Roman Catholic Church? Aram, they are still apostate and believe the most pagan doctrines that are so foreign to Scripture. Onnig

Arman jan, there is no "climb". There is nothing one can do to get these people to start being consistent with the Word of God. Even if you point out the heresies with the proper resources, properly articulated, properly documented and they will still not care. Like the Pharisees they will not relinquish their man-made authority and submit to the Word of God. They , "neglecting the commandment of God...hold to the traditions of men." Mark 7:8. Yes, the many protestant churches are equally guilty of these things but there is a misconceptioin here. Do not take everything under the banner of "protestant" as protestant. The Protestant Reformers at the 16th century having wide theological differences with some "protestants" of today. There are different denominations. The best thing to do is to look at the statement of faith of each one and compare it to the Word of God. The greatest reason I left the AAC (Armenian Apostolic Church) is the due to the worship liturgy itself. The Badarak being a resacrifice of Christ, the priesthood acting as a propitiatory and mediatory priesthood offering up Christ as a sacrifice for the absolution of sins, and also because of the creature elevation of Mary and other Saints and of idols.

Thanks for the information. I am already familiar with all of this and would like to mention that every single line has either a great assumption or an even greater misconception. I will take it line by line: The "One Holy Universal" part assumes that the Church has no disagreements of any kind with other branches. Just look at the multiple Patriarchs for example. An heirarchical system of the church is non-existant in the Bible to begin with and even with the false organizational system the Armenian Church has you can still clearly see the conflict within. The multiple Patriarch are not merely a regional organization, this is an authoritative split. The "Apostolic Orthodox" part is also a misconception. What makes a church Apostolic or Orthodox? Do we just accept the claim once it has been claimed? No, not at all. If one is claiming an Apostolic and Orthodox church then they must be in complete agreement with one thing, the Word of God. The Armenian church says they are but they truly are not just looking at some of the examples I simply pointed out. Not true, a great multitude of Armenians would not side with the AAC (Armenian Apostolic Church) so to say it is the "Christian Church of the Armenian people" is plainly false. I am still studying the theology of the AAC from its national beginnings 301AD until now. It is very difficult or even impossible to figure out what they believed and what was taught at and before that time since the Armenian Christians were writing in Syriac or Greek. The one thing you can take out of this statement is the sheer pride the AAC takes in these claims. Some may be fact and others just fantasy since most of it can't really be objectively proven. One thing still remains, the statement "for more than 1,700 years we have steadfastly and devotedly followed Our Lord Jesus Christ, His teachings, the teachings of His Holy Apostles" mixed with "Our sacred Church traditions, and the teachings of our graceful Saints and Church fathers" which are in stark contrast if one studies the Bible. How did Christ make the "church" holy? What does this holiness entail? These questions should be asked. Is it an actual real moral holiness, that is, sinlessness or is it a positional holiness where God declares one righteous as a legal declaration on account of Christ? Holy and Holiness is totally misunderstood and the church is deemed holy under these incorrect understandings. What does this "universality" consist of? Is it the Apostolic Creed, the Nicene Creed? Does this universality bind with other non-eastern church, Roman, protestant, what? Ths is very vague. And if "all the faithful may join the AAC" then why do they call the church Armenian? Does "all the faithful" mean other Armenian Christian sects or other races? You see how none of this seems important to the AAC so they just point these as facts so that they are now making these blanket statements to make the church sound somehow valid. This is by church tradition. Did you know that the Iraqi church also claims these Apostles as their founders? That is a great regional gap, so who to believe or are they both true? Definitely not true since there are glaring contradictions with the Word of God and the "holy" traditions of the church as I have already pointed out. Tell that to the Cilician See and what about the one in Constantinople? Wait, I forgot the Jerusalem See as well. And my friend, they are not "leading people to God". What they are doing is they are leading people to a nationalistic furvor rooted in the assumption of such "greatness" as we supposedly are rooted in.

I usually see priests and others within the Armenian Apostolic and even some Evangelical circles talking about issues that are secondary at best. As Christians, shouldn't we be primarily concerned about one's relationship to the living God of the Universe? I see other issues taking precedence, like Armenian identity, the holocaust, Armenian cultural observances, etc. Some may be gasping at the fact that I mentioned the holocaust is a secondary issue and that it should not be at the forefront of Armenian interest. Should it? Maybe it should, to those who are only Christian by name but not to those who have a real relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who are in Christ realize that all these issues are mundane and that the pressing issue should be the proclamation of the gospel. There can be nothing more important than the salvation of souls or can there be? Can you name anything else that can be more important than the salvation of souls from eternal hell? I can't think of one. So, why would these "Christian" Armenians be so misguided as to priorities? Here are a few thoughts I have. 1. The truth of Christ is not a reality but just a passing acceptance due to their allegiance to a religious system. 2. Being Armenian prevails over being a Christian which is a form of idolatry. 3. The Armenian Church is inseparable to the identity of Armenian culture and therefore advocating Armenian heritage or Armenian interests one would assumingly be advocating Christianity and thus satisfying their need for any religious practice. 4. Self elevation rather than Christ elevation. 5. Personal holiness is not a concern. The underlying issue I would say is pride. Armenian identity is preeminent in the Armenian community, especially in the Diasporas. 1 John 2:16: “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” Armenians have a great history of heritage and culture, an ancient people but does that outweigh the greatness of the gospel? Never! Does this mean we should never teach about Armenian heritage to the next generation? No. Just don’t make it your main concern because whatever precedes in priority to the person of Jesus Christ, be it culture, identity, accomplishments, etc, it is idolatry. Only the Lord Jesus Christ is worthy of such praise and admiration. Heb 1:10-12: And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END." This world is perishing and will come to an end. Don’t let your work be in vain. There is no identity in heaven other than those who have been saved by the blood of Christ. A Christian, a true Christian will see this and his desires will not be misguided. Christians will desire to give their utmost for the advancement of God’s kingdom and not their own. _________________________________ more at http://www.armeniansforchrist.com

Hi Aram, I reluctantly left the church years ago but looking back now it was the best thing I ever did in my life, well second best, because the Armenian Church is not a church of biblical Christianity but rather has been tainted by a man-centered gospel rather than a Christ-centered one. This may seem like a very harsh statement but if you test the doctrines of the Armenian Church against the Word of God you will find many, many errors not on a simple level of concession but rather on heretical grounds. The article I posted is but a symptom of the nature of the problem which is the abandonment of the Word of God as the sole rule of faith and authority for the Church. The Armenian Church will definitely NOT change its doctrines. Their house was built upon sand, meaning they have built upon man and man’s supposed authority and not on the authority of the clear Word of God. They have a low view of God because they have a high view of man. So when I left the church and worshiped God in Spirit and in Truth which can only be done when it is guided by God’s Word alone then worship became what it should be, a true worship of the living God of the Universe free from any creature elevation and idols. I saw what the true meaning of worship, to exult God and give Him all the glory in everything, even in my own salvation which I have nothing to boast about since it is all His work. If you haven’t already guessed, I am protestant (poghokagan) and more specifically Reformed Protestant. By the way, great sig! p.s. I don’t know this Mutafyan person. I am not politically motivated as sadly most Armenians are.

It is a sad state of affairs when a church that boasts that it has prominently kept the faith of the Apostles, falls into the worldly realm of ecumenicalism and universalism. The Armenian Orthodox Church has done just so, by negating the exclusivity of the Lord Jesus Christ and applying salvation to non-Christians. This is not just a member of the Church saying this but the very Patriarch of the Armenian Apostolic Church, Mesrop B. The following was originally posted in Armenian at lraper.org ( http://www.lraper.org/main.aspx?Action=Dis...76&Lang=HAY ) and has been translated below into English by Arayik Khachikyan. If there is any doubt to the ecumenical conclusiveness of this letter by Patriach Mesrop B deeming a Muslim as a "brother in the Lord" then the reader must examine his own understanding as to the true nature of Christ's unique and singular role in the redemption of man. John 14:6-7 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." Translation below: His Holiness Patriarch Mesrop Congratulates Ramadan At the beginning of the Islamic Ramadan, His Holiness Father Mesrop Patriarch sent a letter to the overseer of Islamic Religious Affairs, Prof. Dr. Ali Partacoglu and Grand Mufti of Istambul Prof. Dr. Mustafa Chagxchn, congratulating them for the Muslim Ramadan. His Most Magnificent(e.i., Mesrop) in his letter wrote, Most Respected Brother in the Lord, By this letter, I want to express my deepest wishes to you with regard to the start of the Holy Muslim Ramadan. I specially pray that in our common monotheistic spiritual fasting festivals, the prayers, and the listening to the Word of God, as it is for Turkish and all Islamic World, that these things will be productive and fruitful from the viewpoint of our civilizations’ mutual understanding, peace, and prosperity. Let the most High God grant our country and our compatriots mercy, and salvation, and happiness, and that He will help and support all the nations of the world(and our relationship with each other) by His Holy Spirit, to establish peace and friendship. By love, peace, and respect Mesrop B., Patriarch of all Armenians Political pressure should never allow for doctrinal compromise. The truth should be spoken boldly and let the work of God's Word penetrate the hearts of men. In this case it seems that the Patriach truly believes this heresy. In addition, Christ's atoning sacrifice is not applied through ignorance even if a man is "sincerely" searching for God in his own religion. This is universalism to the core. Mother Teresa thought this way; Billy Graham thinks this way and now we see that the representative of all Armenians, Mesrop B. is thinking this way. Do not be misled. Embracing Christ as the only Lord and Savior is the sole means of salvation. Woe to them who preach another way! Onnig Sayadian Sola Fide in Solus Christus

Well everything was great until you said what you said above. Why in the world would I attack you and especially for using your "God given gift known as brain"? You're not accusing me of not using my brain, are you? Anyway, it was very interesting the word study you brought up. Although in every case it would prove my point exactly that the Badarak (however understood) is a sacrifice to atone for sin. Being a sacrifice, morsel, bread, etc, in every case it points to the element which undergoes a change which becomes Christ actually. This is strict Aristotellian philosophy regarding accidents and substance which is unbiblical but unfortunately borrowed by Thomas Aquinas to explain the false undertanding of the Eucharist mass. It is not the supposed ingestion of Christ that makes one holy. It is faith alone in his life and death which imputes His righteousness to the sinner.

The Badarak is the Sacrament of Holy Communion. It is the "greatest Christian privilege" the Armenian Orthodox Church member can participate in. I would like to show the great error found in this Sacrament. This error is spoken against in the Word of God which is found in Heb 9:24-28 "For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." Heb 10:10-12 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,” The error is the continual sacrfice of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Armenian Badarak. Soorp Badarak means "Holy Sacrifice". Please see the following for yourself and judge the Badarak for what it is; an expiatory and propitiatory sacrifice that absolves sins through the transubstantiated bread and wine which becomes the actual, literal body and blood of Christ. This continual sacrifice is what the author of Hebrews speaks against. The important parts have been placed in bold and italicized and sometimes underlined. The Transubstantial and Sacrificial Nature of the Badarak Soorp Badarak means "Holy Sacrifice". From: http://www.armenianchurch.net Who is responsible for the armenianchurch.net site? This site was launched in July 2002 by the Communications Department of the Diocese of the Armenian Church of America (Eastern) under the direction of Mr. George Kassis, Director of Communications and Development. The site was redesigned in March 2004. Parts of the Badarak ceremony are pasted below. Important parts have been put in bold lettering. A Hymn about Holy Communion -- Marmeen deroonagan Like the Liturgy of the Word, the Eucharist also begins with a hymn to Jesus Christ. This first hymn of the Eucharist asserts that when we receive the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion, we are being joined to the same Son of God who is praised by the angels in heaven: "The body of the Lord and the blood of the Savior are present before us. The heavenly hosts invisibly sing with unceasing voice: Holy, holy, holy, Lord of hosts" [23]. Marmeen deroonagan reminds us that in Holy Communion we become one with Almighty God. We literally tap into the divine power of God, for whom "All things are possible" [Matthew 19:26]. The Procession with the Gifts of Bread and Wine Another similarity between the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Word is that both begin with a procession. The deacon processes around the altar elevating the veiled chalice above his head. Like the procession with the Gospel in the Liturgy of the Word, this procession draws our attention and devotion to the bread and wine, which become for us the Body and Blood of Jesus. While the deacon processes around the altar the priest prays once again that God will make him worthy to preside over this sacrament: "¦Cleanse my soul and my mind from all the defilements of the evil one; and by the power of your Holy Spirit enable me ¦ to stand before this holy table and to consecrate your spotless body and your precious blood" [24]. At the end of the procession, the deacon hands the gifts to the celebrant as they alternate verses from Psalm 24. Yet again, the words of the Psalm express our faith that the contents of the chalice will become for us the Lord, "strong in his power ¦ mighty in battle." As the deacon hands the chalice to the priest he says: "This is the king of glory!" [sa eenkn eh takavor parats] [25]. The Procession with the Gifts concludes with a proclamation by the deacon, leading into a prayer by the priest. On behalf of all those present he asks God to "grant this bread and this cup to be for us, who taste of them, a remedy of forgiveness of our sins" [26]. A Call to Attention: Let us Stand in Awe After the Kiss of Peace the deacons invite the people to give their undivided attention to the Eucharistic Prayer, the main prayer of the Badarak. In the course of this long prayer [29-39] the celebrant, praying on behalf of all the people, asks God to do for us just what Jesus promised at his last Supper: to fill us with His Body and Blood, the sacrament of His holiness and divine life, in the bread and wine of Holy Communion. In preparation for this important prayer, the deacons call on us to "lift up your minds in the fear of God;" to "give thanks to the lord with the whole heart" [29]. This is our cue to clear our minds of extraneous thoughts. We must now focus on God. At this moment nothing is more pressing and urgent than He. The Eucharistic Prayer The Eucharistic Prayer of the Armenian Church is attributed to the great fourth-century Egyptian theologian St. Athanasius, who strongly influenced Armenian theology. The Eucharistic Prayer of St. Athanasius is more than a simple prayer in the usual sense of the term. It is a poetic, highly theological declaration of the Armenian Church's understanding of God's intervention in human history, mostly in the person and deeds of Jesus Christ. The prayer retells the whole story of our salvation [29-32], focusing on the beginning and the end of Christ's life: his birth as a human being [29-30], and his death on the cross [30-31] as a sacrifice to God the Father for us. Christ's crucifixion led to his resurrection, by which he destroyed the permanence of death and replaced it with a new and never-ending life with God for those who choose to accept it. The Prayer is called "Eucharistic" because the story of our salvation in Christ pivots around Christ's last Supper [31-32]. It was during that meal in the Upper Room, on the night before his execution, that Jesus gave his disciples bread and wine, declaring them to be his Body and Blood. More important, Jesus told them that in this ritual meal, he had established "the new covenant in my blood" [32] a radically new relationship of love and fellowship between God and humanity. "Do this," he told them, "in remembrance of me" [1 Corinthians 11:24-25]. When we celebrate the Eucharist and receive Holy Communion, we recall and recommit ourselves to this new covenant in the Church. We rededicate ourselves to Christian life as children of God and heirs of eternal life with him. We renew our oath of baptism. Filled with Christ himself, we say, "Yes, Lord. I want to follow you and be with you in this life and for all eternity." Through the Eucharist, the Church offers us true inner peace, a real sense of belonging, and the true security that comes from being with God. The Eucharistic Prayer is therefore the Church's prayer of life in Christ. It is the unique ministry of the priest to offer this prayer to God on behalf of all the faithful. Over the centuries this prayer, the heart of the Divine Liturgy, has been covered over by deacons' litanies and hymns so that today much of the Eucharistic Prayer is offered inaudibly by the celebrant. It is important, therefore, that we realize that this Prayer is not "private," and it is not "the priest's prayer." It is the prayer of all the children of God, the Church, to their Father in heaven. The Preface Theologians refer to the first part of the Eucharistic Prayer as the "Preface" [29-30]. The Preface praises God for sending his son, Jesus Christ, into the world to be born, and to take on the condition of humanity in order to cleanse it and reconcile it with God the Father. This is the mystery of Christ's incarnation. It is the teaching of the Armenian Church that in the incarnation the process of our salvation already began as Jesus embraced humanity, purifying it and infusing it with his divinity." Like the divine master-builder building a new work," our Eucharistic Prayer declares, "[Jesus] made this earth into heaven" [29]. We see the same mystery revealed in the bread and wine of the Badarak. As the twelfth-century Armenian St. Nersess Lambronatsi wrote, "For our sake you became earthly that we may become heavenly. For our sake you became bread that we, by partaking of you, may be sanctified." The Last Supper After the Sanctus, the Eucharistic Prayer describes "the outpouring of [Jesus'] infinite loving-kindness to us" [30]. The Prayer recalls God's repeated attempts, detailed in the Old Testament, to coax mankind back from the vain and sinful distractions of this life to the loving security of God. This culminates in the sacrifice of God's only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ, who died on the Cross as a redemption for our sinfulness. "The world-saving Cross...the occasion of our redemption" [30] is perpetuated for us in our celebration of the Lord's Supper. The Eucharistic Prayer narrates this event, quoting Christ's own words: "Take, eat; this is my body...Drink this all of you. This is my blood" [31 ]. Our celebration of the Badarak rests on the authority of these words of the Lord. We repeat the Lord's Supper in the Divine Liturgy not by any human authority, but because our Lord told us to do so [Mathew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20, 1 Corinthians 11:23-26]. Our Eucharistic Prayer declares: "Your only-begotten, beneficent Son gave us the commandment that we should always do this in remembrance of him" [31]. Our celebration of the Badarak rests on the authority of these words of the Lord. We repeat the Lord's Supper in the Divine Liturgy not by any human authority, but because our Lord told us to do so [Mathew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20, 1 Corinthians 11:23-26]. Our Eucharistic Prayer declares: "Your only-begotten, beneficent Son gave us the commandment that we should always do this in remembrance of him" [31]. The Epiclesis "Epiclesis" (eh-pi-clee'-sis) is the term theologians use to describe the next part of the Eucharistic Prayer. In the Epiclesis we call on God's Holy Spirit to come down "upon us and upon these gifts," so that they may become "truly the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" [34]. This is our main supplication in the Eucharistic Prayer. The Intercessions After the Epiclesis, in the presence of Jesus Christ in his Body and Blood, we pray to our heavenly Father for all of our daily cares and concerns. The Prayer lists them one by one. These subsidiary requests of the Divine Liturgy are called "Intercessions." We pray for peace in the world, for the stability of the Armenian Church, for our Catholicos, Bishops and clergy, for civil leaders, for travelers, prisoners, captives, for the sick and suffering, for temperate weather and sufficient food, for those who help the poor, for all the living and all the dead [35, 37,38-39]. The Prayer lists them one by one. These subsidiary requests of the Divine Liturgy are called "Intercessions." We pray for peace in the world, for the stability of the Armenian Church, for our Catholicos, Bishops and clergy, for civil leaders, for travelers, prisoners, captives, for the sick and suffering, for temperate weather and sufficient food, for those who help the poor, for all the living and all the dead [35, 37,38-39]. We should never underestimate the power of prayer. Jesus said, "If two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven." [Matthew 18:19]. There is no better time to ask our heavenly Father for whatever we need than during the Badarak, when we are assembled in the presence of Christ as the Church. While the priest silently makes these intercessions in the Eucharistic Prayer [35, 37, 38-39], the deacons chant a litany in which they recall the names of the great saints of the Church [34-37]. We remember that the saints already live in the presence of God in heaven. But they also invisibly participate in our liturgy. We ask them to intercede with God -- literally, to put in a good word for us -- so that He may hear our prayers and answer them. All of this is expressed in the refrain, Heeshya Der yev voghormya, "Be mindful, Lord, and have mercy." The Conclusion of the Eucharistic Prayer The great Eucharistic Prayer ends with a final reference to Holy Communion, a closing doxology in praise of the Holy Trinity, and of course, the seal of all prayers, Amen: "And having cleansed our thoughts, make us temples fit for the reception of the Body and Blood of your Only-begotten, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, with whom to you, O Father almighty, together with the life-giving and liberating Holy Spirit, is befitting glory, dominion and honor, now and always and unto the ages of ages. Amen" [39]. Two Hymns of Praise The priest's exclamation, Ee surpootyoon surpots, "Holiness for the holy" [42] is the original invitation for the faithful ("the holy") to come forward to receive communion ("holiness"). It is a relic from an earlier time when Holy Communion was distributed at this point in the Divine Liturgy. Eventually, two hymns were added here, before the distribution of Holy Communion. The first is addressed to Christ: Meeayn soorp, "The one holy" [42]. It is sung while the celebrant elevates the Eucharistic bread and the chalice over his head. The hymn is an acclamation that they are the Body and Blood of Christ. The second hymn is sung in praise of the three persons of the Holy Trinity: Amen, Hayr soorp, Vorteet soorp, Hokeet soorp [43]. Following this hymn, the priest turns toward the people with the chalice and proclaims it to contain "the holy, holy, and precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who, having come down from heaven, is distributed among us." The celebrant continues with an incisive affirmation of the power of the sacrament: "This is life, hope of resurrection, expiation and remission of sins." Finally, the priest asks the people to "Sing psalms to the Lord our God ... our immortal heavenly king" [44]. Finally, the priest asks the people to "Sing psalms to the Lord our God ... our immortal heavenly king" [44]. Confession and Absolution Sin is anything that distracts us from "undivided devotion to the Lord" [1 Corinthians 7:35]. In a stress-filled and secular world Christians tend to deviate from God, forgetting their responsibilities, but also their abundant blessings as baptized children of God. St, Paul writes that we must be "blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world" [Philippians 2:15]. When we fall short of this high calling, as we are bound to do, the Church provides a sacrament by which we can demonstrate our remorse and desire to return to the path that leads to God. The Armenian Church has many forms for reconciliation with God. The most direct vehicle is Holy Communion itself, which is given "for the expiation and remission of sins" [31]. There can be no closer meeting with the Lord in this life than receiving Him in the Eucharist. It is an ancient tradition of the Church that even before receiving Holy Communion the faithful have opportunities to examine their lives and confess to a priest whatever they have done that has distracted them from the life in Christ. The priest prays that God will absolve them of their sinfulness and restore their status as children of God. Today mental health professionals recognize the value of liberating ourselves of painful thoughts and feelings by sharing them with someone we trust. When we divulge our inner demons to someone, we can take control of them and be renewed. Confession offers all of this and more, the assurance of God's abiding acceptance and love. In America it has become the custom to offer a general confession and absolution immediately before Holy Communion is distributed [48]. Led by the deacons, the people read a prepared examination of conscience that helps each person reflect on whatever sins he or she has committed. Then the priest, not by his own authority, but by the "very word" of Jesus Christ [49], absolves the sins of all who have made confession. Holy Communion In the Armenian Church Holy Communion is distributed in the following manner. The communicant stands before the priest, makes the sign of the cross and says Megha Asdoodzo, "I have sinned against God." The priest then places a small particle of our Lord's Body and Blood -- the bread having been dipped into the wine -- directly into the mouth of the communicant. The communicant again makes the sign of the Cross and steps aside for others to approach the blessed sacrament. After all have received Holy Communion, using the chalice to imprint the sign of the Cross over the communicants, the priest imparts the blessing of Psalm 28:9: "Save your people, Lord, and bless your inheritance; shepherd them and lift them up from henceforth until eternity" [50]. The Prayer lists them one by one. These subsidiary requests of the Divine Liturgy are called "Intercessions." We pray for peace in the world, for the stability of the Armenian Church, for our Catholicos, Bishops and clergy, for civil leaders, for travelers, prisoners, captives, for the sick and suffering, for temperate weather and sufficient food, for those who help the poor, for all the living and all the dead [35, 37,38-39]. (This part is from me) And in summary, first we need to understand what the bread and wine becomes at the Badarak. The bread and the wine do not simply "represent" the body and blood of Christ in the Badarak, it actually "becomes" His body and blood. Here are direct quotes: In the section "A Hymn about Holy Communion -- Marmeen deroonagan": - "The body of the Lord and the blood of the Savior are present before us." In the section "The Procession with the Gifts of Bread and Wine" - "Like the procession with the Gospel in the Liturgy of the Word, this procession draws our attention and devotion to the bread and wine, which become for us the Body and Blood of Jesus." - "Yet again, the words of the Psalm express our faith that the contents of the chalice will become for us the Lord, "strong in his power … mighty in battle." As the deacon hands the chalice to the priest he says: "This is the king of glory!" In the section "A Call to Attention: Let us Stand in Awe" - "In the course of this long prayer [29-39] the celebrant, praying on behalf of all the people, asks God to do for us just what Jesus promised at his last Supper: to fill us with His Body and Blood, the sacrament of His holiness and divine life, in the bread and wine of Holy Communion." In the section "The Eucharistic Prayer" - "It was during that meal in the Upper Room, on the night before his execution, that Jesus gave his disciples bread and wine, declaring them to be his Body and Blood." In the section "The Preface" - "We see the same mystery revealed in the bread and wine of the Badarak. As the twelfth-century Armenian St. Nersess Lambronatsi wrote, "For our sake you became earthly that we may become heavenly. For our sake you became bread that we, by partaking of you, may be sanctified." In the section "The Epiclecis" - ""Epiclesis" (eh-pi-clee'-sis) is the term theologians use to describe the next part of the Eucharistic Prayer. In the Epiclesis we call on God's Holy Spirit to come down "upon us and upon these gifts," so that they may become "truly the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" [34]. This is our main supplication in the Eucharistic Prayer." In the section "The Intercessions" - "After the Epiclesis, in the presence of Jesus Christ in his Body and Blood, we pray to our heavenly Father for all of our daily cares and concerns." In the section "The Conclusion of the Eucharist Prayer" - "And having cleansed our thoughts, make us temples fit for the reception of the Body and Blood of your Only-begotten, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ," In the Section "Two Hymns of Praise" - "It is sung while the celebrant elevates the Eucharistic bread and the chalice over his head. The hymn is an acclamation that they are the Body and Blood of Christ." In the section "Holy Communion" - "The priest then places a small particle of our Lord's Body and Blood -- the bread having been dipped into the wine -- directly into the mouth of the communicant." So you see that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ. Why is this a problem and what are the results of such a claim? This is what we call transubstantiation. Where the elements of the bread and wine mystically turn into the real body and blood of Christ. Why? So that when the worshiper eats and drinks of it he is being "infused" with Christ's flesh and blood making him holy. They are actually eating the flesh of Christ and drinking His blood. Now onto the sacrifice: Also in the section "The Eucharistic Prayer" - "Through the Eucharist, the Church offers us true inner peace, a real sense of belonging, and the true security that comes from being with God." In the section "The Last Supper" - This culminates in the sacrifice of God's only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ, who died on the Cross as a redemption for our sinfulness. The world-saving Cross...the occasion of our redemption" [30] is perpetuated for us in our celebration of the Lord's Supper." Also in the section "Two Hymns of Praise" - "Following this hymn, the priest turns toward the people with the chalice and proclaims it to contain "the holy, holy, and precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who, having come down from heaven, is distributed among us." The celebrant continues with an incisive affirmation of the power of the sacrament: "This is life, hope of resurrection, expiation and remission of sins." Finally, the priest asks the people to "Sing psalms to the Lord our God ... our immortal heavenly king" [44]." In the section "Confession and Absolution" - "The Armenian Church has many forms for reconciliation with God. The most direct vehicle is Holy Communion itself, which is given "for the expiation and remission of sins" - "Then the priest, not by his own authority, but by the "very word" of Jesus Christ [49], absolves the sins of all who have made confession." Also in the section "Holy Communion" - "After all have received Holy Communion, using the chalice to imprint the sign of the Cross over the communicants, the priest imparts the blessing of Psalm 28:9: "Save your people, Lord, and bless your inheritance;" So you see how the Badarak is definitely a resacrifice of Christ not just as a remembrance but an actual sacrifice to atone for sin. So to reiterate; the Badarak is a Sacrifice for the remission of sins. In the section above titled "The Eucharist Prayer" they are quoted to say, ""Do this," he told them, "in remembrance of me" [1 Corinthians 11:24-25]." The Badarak is not merely a remembrance of the Lord's final sacrifice but it is rather a re-sacrifice of the only Begotten of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. They place Him into "places made with hands", the bread and the wine, and they ingest the bread and wine to infuse Christ within them so that they may be absolved of their sins. This is a great error in the site of the Lord and must be made known to all. Christ's life is not infused into ours but rather His life and death are imputed to our account freely by His grace through faith initiated by His regenerating work in our hearts so that we can then confess our sins and be saved. Rom 10:1-10 "Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Praise God for the final authoritative truth revealed in His Word so that error may be discerned and those in that error may repent and be consistent with God's word and be truly reconciled to Him. more at http://www.armeniansforchrist.com

gamavor, how would you explain this using the biblical text I brought up? You cannot have the same Apostolic authority today as the Armenian Church claims it has. Or did I misunderstand you? Onnig

The Armenian Apostolic Church grants itself authority by the idea of Apostolic Succession. the late Archbishop S. Kaloustian of the Armenian Apostolic Church said, "By the term Apostolic Succession is meant that the mission conferred by Jesus Christ upon the Apostles passed from them to their legitimate successors, in an unbroken line, until the end of the world… The Church is Apostolic because its rulers, the Bishops, derive their office and authority by lawful succession from the Apostles. That is why we call our Bishops “Surpazan,” which means “of Holy Lineage” that is to say, direct successors of Apostles." The Church is described in many respects. In the greek it literally means “the called out ones”. It is also pointed out that the church is given certain individuals to be overseers (1 Timothy 3:1-7), also called elders, pastors and shepherds (Acts 20:17,28; 1 Peter 5:1-4). They were given also as deacons (1 Timothy 3:8-13). There was no separation between “clergy” and “laity” but rather those who were gifted with leadership positions were called to equip all the saints for the work of the ministry (Eph 4:7-16). Therefore, the Church is NOT specific to only the leaders but it is rather the whole of the body of believers who are called to minister and with this understanding, passages like 1 Timothy 3:15 where the “Church” is referred to as the “pillar and support” of truth can be understood properly as all believers removing any notion of a select few with absolute doctrinal authority. Yes, the Lord gave to the same body of believers teachers and elders in authority in order for the body to learn, be governed and to be edified; but Peter’s description in 1 Peter 2:9-10 is not exclusively for the leaders; it is for the entire body of believers, in other words, the Church. In Eph 4:11, Paul the Apostle explains what God has gifted the Church with; “And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers.” This goes against the grain of the idea of Apostolic succession for which the Armenian ‘Apostolic’ Church stands. How? Since Paul says God gave these types of leaders, does that mean that He has given these today? Does that include Apostles in the fullest sense of the term referring to Paul and the Twelve? No not at all. In the broadest sense, the term Apostle (ἀπόστολος ap-os'-tol-os, derived from a verb meaning to send, to send away on a commission, to dispatch; ἀποστέλλω) is anything which is sent or by which something is sent, or anyone who is sent or by whom a message is sent. The word occurs ten times in the Gospels, nearly thirty times in Acts, greater than thirty times in the Pauline epistles (including the five times in the Pastorals), and eight times in the rest of the New Testament. In later Judaism, envoys were sent out by the Jerusalem patriarchate. These envoys were called apostles. In the New Testament the term is distinctly religious in which the widest meaning of apostle refers to any gospel messenger. The person represents his sender with the message of salvation. Barnabas, Epaphroditus, Apollos, Silvanus, and Timothy are all called “apostles” (Acts 14:14; I Cor. 4:6, 9; Phil. 2:25; I Thess. 2:6, cf. 1:1; and see also I Cor. 15:7). They represent God’s purpose and some specific churches (2 Cor. 8:23). Paul and Barnabas represent the church at Antioch (Acts 13:1,2) and Epaphroditus at Philippi (Phil 2:25). In this broad sense of the term apostle we can also reference Andronicus and Junius (Rom. 16:7), and James, the Lord’s brother (Gal. 1:19), which once again reference messengers. There is a fuller sense of the term apostle. The fullest sense of the term apostle is that person who is an apostle for life and wherever he goes. He is given the authority of the One who has sent him in which he directs both doctrine and life with that granted authority. We do NOT have these types of Apostles, in the fullest sense of the term, today. Why? There are several characteristics of full apostleship described by the New Testament: 1. They have been chosen, called, and sent forth by Christ himself. They have received their commission directly from him (John 6:70; 13:18; 15:16, 19; Gal. 1:6) 2. They are qualified for their tasks by Jesus, and have been ear-and-eye witnesses of his words and deeds; specifically, they are the witnesses of his resurrection (Acts 1:8, 22; I Cor. 9:1; 15:8; Gal. 1:12; Eph. 3:2–8; I John 1:1–3). 3. They have been endowed in a special measure with the Holy Spirit, and it is this Holy Spirit who leads them into all the truth (Matt. 10:20; John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7–14; 20:22; I Cor. 2:10–13; 7:40; I Thess. 4:8 ). 4. God blesses their work, confirming its value by means of signs and miracles, and giving them much fruit upon their labors (Matt. 10:1, 8; Acts 2:43; 3:2; 5:12–16; Rom. 15:18, 19; II Cor. 12:12; I Cor. 9:2; Gal. 2:8 ). 5. Their office is not restricted to a local church, neither does it extend over a short period of time; on the contrary, it is for the entire church and for life (Acts 26:16–18; II Tim. 4:7, 8 ).[ii] So you see that full Apostolic calling ended after the Twelve and Paul passed away. To say that the same full Apostolic calling has succeeded to the present day by an authoritative lineage in the Church requires two things; a redefining of the term Church and ignorance of the biblical record as to what it means to have a calling as a full Apostle. --All references to full apostolic calling are from William Hendricksen and Simon J Kistemaker New Testament Commentary. Baker Book House. 1984. See section on 1 Timothy 1:1. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More available at http://www.armeniansforchrist.com Saints and Sacraments of the Armenian Church. Archbishop Shnork Kaloustian. 1969. Pgs 12, 77 [ii] All references to full apostolic calling are from William Hendricksen and Simon J Kistemaker New Testament Commentary. Baker Book House. 1984. See section on 1 Timothy 1:1.

I think this thread would be a great place to have dialogue in regards to the issues of the "intelligent design" debate. I don't want to talk about the current events in the US but the actual arguments, pro and con, in regards to the intelligent design theory. I would be pro-intelligent design for reasons I will state in my next post. What is your take on it?

Here we go.... I don't own any stock or work for any tobacco companies, blah blah blah blah. The only brainwashing here is the good kind because I can see through personal tragedy and still perceive the truth by objective reasoning and not personal experiences so my brain has been washed from that kind of clouded sight. Read my earlier posts on how my non-immediate family has been affected by smoking since I believe there might be a lapse in your short-term memory. OK, so, I have made clear that there is no bias or partiality toward tobacco companies; now let's press onto the real issue. You mentioned a "precedent" and yet you have not stated one court case to that fact. I have not seen one smoker being arrested for murder, yet. Therefore you either are misinformed as to the current law, or are confused as to the term "precedent", or just plainly don't know what the heck you're talking about. I think all three are the case. Second hand smoke does NOT kill 100% of the people 100% of the time. If it did then every death today would be related to second hand smoke. It sounds like an absurd fact to point out since common knowledge points to this reality but I think I must state these ridiculous facts since the accusation is itself ridiculous: "They (smokers) should be prosecuted for murder if they pass second-hand smoke to others." There are certain things today that should be considered murder but that's for another time on another thread. Conclusion: Phantom22, look at the facts, not the fluff.

Prosecuted for murder? Now its getting silly.

So teenagers cannot be accountable because of what, because they're teenagers? Here's my problem, if the tobacco companies advertise that smoking is NOT bad for you then yes, they are liable; but advertising a tobacco product for flavor, consistency, aroma, etc is not criminal and neither should the tobacco company be fined for that or be blamed for countless millions affected by tobacco smoking. The surgeon general has required all tobacco ads have the cancer warning label, yet people are STILL SMOKING, and there are a huge number of new smokers every year. Blame the tobacco companies? No, it goes beyond that, to the actual people smoking. It is their fault they have ignored such clear warnings. Our family has lost several people to cancer last year but I'm not going to be embittered toward the tobacco companies. Nobody forced them to smoke. If we go by the logic of addiction then we must outlaw many other products; pharmaceuticals, alcohol, etc. Some people even state that they are addicted to porn, food (overeating). So where do we draw the line?

Is the government entirely to blame? Doesn't the individual have some blame for doing the actual smoking?

Sasun, James 2:19 "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. " This passage does not require further explanation. Believing on Jesus means to accept Him as your only Lord and Savior, which you do not, therefore you do not 'believe' on Jesus.

so I guess the answer is no, ok

THOTH, Would you just speak plainly instead of shooting off your condescending tone. I answered your question politely, do the same. Let's start a new thread on this, not here. Yes or No?

THOTH, Again, and of course getting off the topic, those mythical stories you mentioned can easily be explained. The historical facts of Adam and Eve, the great Flood, etc, etc were passed down from generations into other cultures, peoples, kindreds, and tribes. Which came first, the Bible or these very similar mythical fictitious stories? Do we carbon date the original manuscripts and go by that? Does the date matter because some stories could have been carried on for centuries before actually writing them down? So what is to be done here. Well, the biblical account I believe preceeds the mythical ones because of the continual storyline it represents, which is the account of creation, to the fall of man, to God's dealing with man, appointing a Savior, prophesy that has historically come to pass, and Messianic fullfillment of prophesy in Christ Jesus, and also an account for the end of the world. Other stories and timelines from other cultures mimics the whole account. That's my take on it.

I've given you more than adequate evidence, but if you want more, here it goes... Matt 18:8: (Jesus speaking) "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. and, Matt 25:41: (Jesus speaking) "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" and, Matt 25:46: (Jesus speaking) "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." and, 2 Thess 1:9: (Paul writes) "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," and, Rev 14:11: (John writes) "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." and, Rev 20:10: (John writes) "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Sasun, I rest my case.