axel

actually, this is what is meant by "God created man in His own image"

On August 20th 2003, "Domino" stated: http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showt...pic=6851&st=100

Evil in this world is due to man's free will, not to God's intent. Evil and Good exist and have a dialectical relationship ie for Good to exist, there must be evil. Without suffering, there would be no true happiness. Similarly without evil, there would be no Good.

we already had a somewhat related discussion on this topic: http://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3240. this is getting boring. what we have here is people who do not understand or are ot willing to.

Sireli MJ, It would degrading for me to insult someone who doesn't know the meaning of the words oxymoron/pleonasm.

To clarify things, I am half armenian/half french axel comes from the novel Axël by Villiers de l'Isle Adam , a french author I have some admiration for. my dad always tells me "ech@ ech g@ m@na". I think I will listen to his good advice and not waste anymore time with you. ps: no problem Azat. this conversation is over as far as I am concerned.

You remind me of Smerdiakov, you know, the bastard son who commits parricide in the Brothers Karamazov.

Well Arpa, I do not have the slightest respect for your neo-nazi völkisch/antisemitic views and, your contempt for our Christian History, I find utterly disgusting. It is quite ironic though that you have not yet figured out your great pal MJ was a hrea. Speaking of opening one's eyes... MJ knows quite well what a fool you are. I don't think he has much respect for you.

Well this is true. But it is better to die as a human than live as an animal. A people with no ideal nor faith is mere cattle.

My views are quite clear. If you are not able (or willing) to understand them, that is your problem. This is a materialistic point of view I should have added the time dimension and emphasized spiritual unity between past, present and future generations.

No one has put Gregorian Armenians on a higher moral plane than Catholic or Protestant Armenians. We are not judging individuals here. We may express a critic of protestantism without implying that its followers (who are mistaken) are morally inferior. One should also recall that those Armenians who were converted to catholicism or protestantism are the ones who created division in the first place. The Armenian Apostolic Church is the only place where we may unite as a People.

I guess he meant "millenaries" instead of "centuries"

Message of Fr. Vazken Movsesian c. 1989 Fr. Vazken Movsesian Address comments to: dervaz@sain.org February 1989 One evening, I was working in the office when I heard a knock on the door. I opened the door to find two middle aged women standing before me. Each had a purse on their left hand and a stack of printed material in the other hand, almost as if this ensemble was a uniform. One of the ladies began, "We're going door to door and noticed the sign on your door said, 'Armenian Church.'" I quickly explained that these were temporary offices while our Church was being constructed on Stelling Road. "We're going door to door," she continued, "talking with people about their beliefs. Wouldn't you like to see a world without earthquakes and wars?" I realized then that the word "Armenian" was more the issue than "Church." "Yes, I would." "We'de like to give you some of these booklets." She ruffled through a stack of Awake magazines. And so began the famous Jehovah's Witness appeal. We were familiar with their door to door solicitations at our homes, but now Churches? Before she could go on any further, I explained that the Jehovah's Witness belief was heresy. Her ears perked up. The fundamental question is this: Is Jesus Christ God incarnate? For the Jehovah's Witness, the answer is simply no. Hence, they aren't even Christians! After a brief quasi-theological discussion, I made it known that the Orthodox belief we expound has been with our Church for almost two centuries. Just as these evening callers were about to leave the other lady turned to me and said, "You know, we have many Armenians in our assembly." This month the Armenian Church remembers one of Her greatest heros, St. Vartan Mamigonian. We've all heard his name, and many know his story. In 451 he commanded the Armenian troops into battle against the Persians who were demanding that we change our religion and follow them. Outnumbered 3 to 1 we lost the battle but won the war. We were able to remain Christian. The Christian religion has been so dear to our people, it has been the life blood of our nation. It's value has been so dear that we've sacrificed life for it. In our day and age, we often hear of our saints but fail to make the connection with everyday life. With all the comforts of life in America, we are seldom asked to deny our religion. Yet the message of Armenian converts to Jehovah's Witness was startling and a sad revelation that the Vartanantz battle has been lost to some degree in the 1980's. Before the battle, St. Vartan tells the Persians, "Our religion is not like a garment that we might change according to the circumstances; it is part and parcel of our bones and blood and personality We serve you loyally in your army and pay you taxes faithfully if you leave us alone in the matter of religion. If you try to force your will upon us we are ready to suffer and to be tortured and even to die. However, you should know in advance that there is no power on earth which can force us to change our religion because our covenant is not with man but with the Almighty God." The Vartanantz battle is being fought again today as it has been fought not only in 451, but throughout the centuries. Today we are being coerced by fads and money, hiding under the guise of religion. The example of the Saints is not bound by time. The message is clear today "Our religion is not like a garment that we might change according to the circumstances" Sure in America we are guaranteed the freedom of conscience, yet the lure of cults is great.. Willingly we give in. This is not an indictment exclusively on the individual, but also on our Church in modern times. Further, St. Vartan's battle was clear cut. We knew who the enemy was. Today, cults pop up, and may invoke the name of Jesus Christ, but they are far from Christian, and anything but orthodox. Central to our Church is Jesus Christ. No and, ifs or buts about it! He is the foundation and the cornerstone. There may be times when other religions may seem appealing. The grand appearance of other churches may be very alluring. But remember, your Church has lived the Gospel for two centuries. It is not a shirt or a tie that can be discarded. It is "part and parcel of our bones and blood and personality." Attend and commune regularly. source: http://www.sain.org/DERVAZ/Vartanjw.txt

As usual, MJ is twisting everything and using sophisms of all sorts. What is his point? That there be problems inside the Armenian Church as an institution? Who says there aren't? Does this imply we should reject our Faith? ___________________________________________________________________ Vartanantz Excerpts from Sermon Delivered by Fr. Vazken Movsesian 15 February 1998 Once again we are given an opportunity to reflect on Vartanantz - a battle which took place in 451 A.D. Vartan has become a hero for the Armenian people. He has a special place in the Armenian soul. One of the first poems that Armenian children are taught is a couple of verses claiming, "I am the grandchild of Vartan." It's interesting, because we remember a war that we have lost and yet we celebrate it. Today, I'd like to share with you a few ideas about Vartanantz and its importance to us, not merely as Armenians but as people. Vartan is not just an Armenian hero. He's not only a warrior. Rather, he's received one of the highest honors of the church, he is a saint. We refer to him as saint Vartan. In fact, its because of the Church that Vartan is remembered today. As all the saints, Vartan too was a human being. He had all the frailties of a human. He went through all the trials and tribulations that we go through; however, he was able to rise to the occasion and leave his mark in this world. Let's go back to the time of the Battle of Vartanantz - to 451. Christianity had only been accepted for 150 years. The conversion of Armenia took place at the time of St. Gregory and King Dirtad in 301. Don't think that Armenians woke up one day and they were Christians. The conversion process took many years (in fact, as we see, its still taking place). The Bible was translated to Armenian in 431. But in this short time the Light of Christ and had infected the soul and psyche of a vast number of Armenians. For the first time, their new found faith was going to be put to the test and they we willing to die rather than betray their Christian faith. I don't want to get into the details today about Hazgerd, Vasak and the rest. What is important is that Vartan lead a battle of the freedom of conscience. Christianity was part and parcel of their being and the freedom to express themselves essential. They wanted to express their faith in Christ Jesus in the same manner that we did today - through the worship, scriptures and the receiving of the Holy Communion. On the night of the battle, Catholicos Hovsep and Ghevont the priest the troops in prayer and they received Holy Communion - the body and blood of Jesus. The legacy that St. Vartan leaves us is one of self- determination. We as people, being created in the image of God, have the right to determine our own future. This characterizes us human beings. But unfortunately, our psyche as a people has been so battered that we may not believe this. If you think about what we teach our children as Armenian history, it's very negative. We talk about one defeat after another. We talk about Armenians being killed, tortured, raped, massacred and being the victims of Genocide. Have you ever asked yourself why anyone would want to be a member of such a group? This negative history creep into our collective psyche. We being to see our selves as some dispensable commodity. We lose hope and we believe in destiny rather than self-determination. St. Vartan leaves us a legacy of self-determination. Throughout history we've come to many crossroad, just as we do throughout our lives. Self-determinations means we have the option to choose which road we will take. If St. Vartan believed in destiny, i.e., his fate was written in the stars or in the grinds of his coffee cup, he would have folded his arms and kicked back. Why fight? We're going to die anyway? Why buck the system? Instead he stood up and knew that it was their right to determine their own future. A person who cannot write his own future is a slave. He might as well give up on life. But Christ did not bring slavery. He brought freedom. Through the Church Vartan understood that freedom. He understood Christ's word's "I cam that you may have life and have it more abundantly," as a promise that was already fulfilled. God gives us the tools in life. He gives us intelligence, talents and most importantly He gives us life. The rest is up to us. We have the power to make or break life. But with that power comes responsibility. We are responsible for our actions. The childish approach is to blame an outside force - "the devil made me do it!" The mature approach is to take the responsibility for our actions. In our Church, the sacrament of Penance is exactly that - taking the responsibility for our actions. The Battle of Vartanantz is not just a moment in history. It is not a story or a memory. It is not some nationalistic holiday. It is a commission. It is a call to action. It is a call to determine our future and at the same time to take responsibility for it. In other words, the Battle is not over. That is what is so special about Vartanantz. It is a battle which begins in 1500 years ago and its outcome will be determined today! Vartanantz has not finished. Vartanantz 451 is history. Vartanantz 1998 is reality. We are the generation who will determine who won the war. As long as we sit back idle and let the stars determine our destiny… as long as we see the spiritual decay of our community and say, "it's meant to be" … as long as we stay away from the Armenian Church and Her Orthodox Faith… as long as we erect artificial barriers between the different members of our community… as long as we remain complacent about our faith and national aspirations… we have lost! The Persians have won the war. But every time we take charge of our lives… every time we spread the love that Christ has taught us… every time we rise to the occasion to demonstrate the Christian experience… Vartan has not died in vain. We win the war. Today, take with you the message of action. Whether its your individual life or the life of the community, nothing will happen unless you first decide that you need to get involved. God empowers you to make a difference. Take hold of that power. Don't abuse it, but at the same time don't let it slip through your hands.

That is not true. you do not accept ayatollahs You basically accept people who share your belief structure. There is not much merit in such a position. Orthodox christians are usually more "tolerant" than you are. But "tolerance" is not a christian value in itself. Love is. One does not tolerate what one considers to be evil which is why tolerance cannot exist in the absolute. If it does, it amounts to criminal indifference. For that reason, no ethical belief structure can be based on the absolute of tolerance. You seem to draw far-reaching conclusions from a personal experience. This is fundamentally wrong. Your view of the Church as a mere institution is a secular one. This is where you are mistaken. Being physically part of the Church does not imply being spiritually part of it, that is, attending church offices or bearing a cross does not make one a true christian. I guess we agree on this point. From the same article I already quoted in this thread:

No one forces you to enter the Armenian Church. You are free to be part of it or not. BTW, by participating in a forum and developing your ideas, you are trying to rally people behind them. You're trying to impose your own "belief structure" on the HyeForum microsociety.

And I still fail to see what justifies your calling me an armenian "ayatollah" issuing "fatwas". I was only defending the invisible Church. Is that position intolerant? Is it not to be tolerated? This "hye" forum is rather strange. One cannot even defend the Armenian Church without being aggressed. PS: You seem to be obsessed with ayatollahs these days. You first started calling Naïri a female ayatollah (this was hilarious, I mean really). Now it is me. Who's next? This is not very reassuring as to your present state of mind.

how can you be so intolerant and still pretend to promote tolerance?

??? I think you need some rest.

When speaking of the Church, one should distinguish between the visible Church, the temporal institution, and the invisible one, the mystical entity which is the union of all the faithful in spiritual communion, through the ages. As to the vociferous critics who attack the visible Church in order to discredit the invisible one: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. (John 8:7)

artificially imposed restrictions?? rules?? slaves?? what are you talking about????? you may be confused. no need to share your confusion. Is that to say Orthodox Christian spirituality is fake? Or do you think our plurisecular Faith is fake? Your assertion is quite arrogant although you probably do not realize why.

BTW, I don't see the relevance of this thread on an armenian forum. This amounts to proselytizing. Why don't you give us lengthy excerpts from the Evangiles instead? There are a lot of people who are unaware of their own religion. They first should get to know it before looking at other things. If they do not have a sound understanding of their own faith, they might potentially be confused and deceived. And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. (Luke 21:8) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. (Matthew 7:15)

Well if you can't tell whether a path is right or wrong, how can you state there are many paths? There may be none. But you add "provided they lead to God" so your claim is still true. It is true but it is meaningless. Is religion a way of satisfying one's "spiritual needs" ????? This is quite an individualistic and secular point of view, quite remindful of the protestant mind-set. Christians are not concerned with their ownselves, their own "needs". things like this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/682357.stm.

You may be "on your way" (as your www suggests) but you're not there yet. THANK GOD . I cannot accept (from an orthodox christian standpoint) the idea of young women being deprived of my physical presence. While self-sacrifice is acceptable, sacrificing the well-being of others is not.

Here we see Nairi's true nature revealed. Boy, it is frightening. And I guess it is just a glimpse at things to come...