axel

quote:But if you want to talk Faith, you should talk love. Love is the missing category in all your contemplationIf you do not see Love in my posts then you must be blind. I see a lot of bad faith in yours. quote:And Nazism was certainly Christian basedCertainly not. The nazi supremacist ideology has nothing to do with christianity. quote:Some examples being the inquisition, persecution of jews in Spain, Hugonaughts in France, Crusades, and the invasion of the Americas and genocide of the indigenous peoplesThese are all related to catholicism so this further supports my claims as to the Vatican being an earthly power...

MJ, you accused me of being an ideologist but I've reread my posts and I see no trace of ideology. Or maybe is advocating armenian unity in the Faith an ideologically biased view? Then we must have had many ideologically biased people in our history. I guess you and THOTH look at our "primitive" ancestors with "horror and disbelief". What a shame to be armenian! But hopefully, the Thothist breed will take over, the empowered Man, the Promotheus of the third millenium, so profoundly superior to the rest of us... What about cloning yourselves (btw does thothism have any links with raelians?), this might fasten the process of "evolution", don't you think? You don't have any arguments so you try to discredit my position through personal attacks and other sophistic means... Do you really believe Armenians are that dumb? [ January 20, 2003, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: axel ]

btw, are you a thothist atheist or a theist athothist? [ January 20, 2003, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: axel ]

quote: are you a priest by any chance? No, I'm not

quote:Could any of our ideologists show me a passage in the Bible about "Orthodoxy?" Christian Orthodoxy is about remaining faithful to the True Spirit, period. Show me a passage in the Bible about papal infallibility or the purgatory or the immaculate conception or any other ideologically-motivated catholic inventions... _____________________ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. (Mat 7:15) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (Cor 2 11:13-15) [ January 17, 2003, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: axel ]

quote:nor you have put enough time to understand the New Testament you claim to have readYou do not even read my own messages for I've never said such a thing (although it happens be true).

MJ, you're the one who doesn't have Faith. You very well know that oecumenism works towards the destruction of Orthodoxy. But you hate Orthodoxy for you hate Christ.

THOTH, what exactly do you want to prove? We argued that proving or disproving the existence of God was beyond the reach of human science or knowledge and almost everyone agreed. So what is your point? Why are you being so aggressive towards people who have Faith? I am afraid I don't understand. Why do you keep posting in this thread and why does this subject matter to you? After all being an agnostic, you really shouldn't care.

You should know that the Apostolic Church is NOT in spiritual communion with the roman catholic church. Actually one wonders if there is any Spirit left in the catholic church (among its religious members that is) for there to be a communion. I don't believe in the filioque and the infallibility of the roman pope, a mere human, the emperor of an earthly kindgom. I have Faith in Christ Who said My kingdom is not of this world(Jn 18:36) I have to point out the Apostolic Church is not even in spiritual communion with the Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches (Russian, Greek...) but this is actually a sad reality for there are no major divergences between them... hoping the following material will refresh your memory: Orthodoxy and catholicism [ January 17, 2003, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: axel ]

quote: I specially admire Dostoyevski and Gogol. Then we have a lot in common quote:But it has to be held responsible because humans form the Church. Our Church architecture, our Frescos, The Chants, Armenian manuscripts, Our Khatchkars this we have to deem high in our cultural heritage. 564132, in the orthodox view, the Church is the union of the faithful, not just the clergy in contrast with the catholic view where authority plays a central role and is attributed to the hierarchy. In my understanding, the Apostolic Church is not merely a human institution, it is the embodiment of Christ and it is eternal. It is our past, our present and our future. It is everything, our Spirit, our Saints, our Chants, our Khatchars... But even if you hold a secular view and reduce it to the actual institution, you cannot hold the clergy solely responsible for this institution is the reflection of the People. We have the church that we deserve. When I say the Church is not to be held responsible, I mean the Eternal Church. But if you only consider the human dimension, we ALL have to feel responsible. Of course one can look back at our past with nostalgia and discard the present which doesn't fit our ideals. But the future depends on us overcoming our own weaknesses and lack of Love and putting the blame on others is not a solution (think about the symbolic behind the parricide in The Brothers Karamazov) What we should aim for is spiritual communion and there is no spiritual communion outside of the Church. quote: If anyone could prove to me that Christ is outside the truth, and if the truth really did exclude Christ, I should prefer to stay with Christ and not the truth HyeBruin, if you think about it, this is one of the strongest statement of Faith. It is as saying, "Even if one could prove me God doesn't exist, I would still follow Him" (for in my heart, I know He is the TRUTH). [ January 17, 2003, 04:11 AM: Message edited by: axel ]

sorry, I must be dumb so do not bother...

Ara, And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? [Luke 6:41]

THOTH, I don't see any contradiction in my reasoning. Faith is not about proofs.

I was referring to Sip's dictionary definition of an agnostic being someone who believes the existence of God cannot be either proved or disproved.

quote:True faith cannot be lost very easily, no our apostolic church does not defy who we are as a nation but the faith of many heroes doesI agree with you but the question is whether when you speak of the Church, you merely consider the human institution and discard the spiritual dimension (which seems to be the case) or define it as the union of all the faithful in spiritual communion (which is quite a different view). PS for Sip: People who have faith are usually not termed agnostic (at least not in french) but if you want, one may distinguish between "agnostics" who have faith (my case) and others who don't (your case)

Sasun, we're in full sync and I guess we followed a similar path for I also used to consider myself as an atheist. The few hardcore atheists who take their belief to its consequences end up as nihilists. 564312, you forgot to mention "The Possessed" which is quite relevant in the context of this discussion esp. the character of Stavroguine which, I am now convinced, is not just the fruit of the imagination of an epileptic author for I have encountered such people that have a clear conscience of what good and evil are and yet deliberately choose evil. There is a religious dimension to evil in this world, which is obvious in bolshevism but also in contemporary ideologies, although some do not perceive it. As for the three age metaphor I used in my original post, it is somehow exposed in "A raw youth" if I recall and incarnated by the three Karamazov brothers (Mitia, Ivan and Aliosha). As far as the temporal church is concerned, it it like any human institution subject to deviances and evil but this doesn't affect its theology which, unlike the Roman catholic church, has not been modified to fulfill temporal ambitions (eg. filio que...). I tend to share the Christian Orthodox view on the catholic church. Anyhow, the Apostolic Church is an integral part of our culture and one should not reject it as the invisible Church (which is far more than a human institution) is not to be held responsible for the deviances of some of its priests which contradict its teachings. The problem with non-orthodox churches is that the Spirit has been corrupted at its very root. Once again, this does not mean their followers (and some of its members) are not well-intentioned people. [ January 15, 2003, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: axel ]

Sip, the term "agnostic" is better suited to describe your position.

My definition of an atheist (and that of Sasun, I guess ) is "a person who believes God does not exist". As far as new age is concerned, it is a new world order artifact and as such it has nothing to do with Christ although it pretends to. I'm not saying its followers are not well-intentioned people but they may not fully grasp the hidden intent behind the apparent truths. We, Armenians, have the autocephalous Apostolic Church which is the church of Christ and a vector of unity for our People. PS: Sip Jan, if you have time to kill , read the following, it is a synthesis of atheism as I understand it: The Grand Inquisitor

For those that are stuck here, I will make things a bit more explicit: http://www.kiosek.com/dostoevsky/contents.html

Just out of curiosity, are you a reader of Kafka? your last post really sounds kafkaian to me...

quote: Btw, who is Dostoevski? Some material on this author can be found here. I won't express any personal judgement on the author but if you give credit to what "recognized authorities" say (unlike I who prefer to judge by myself), you may read some quotations about him on the front page. I don't have time to waste either and I hope I didn't waste my time posting on this board (actually I'm quite sure I did not ) [ January 13, 2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: axel ]

I will attempt to summarize my original post. First point, the existence of God is a question of "belief". It is beyond reason and logic (read Kant). One cannot argue that God doesn't exist, one can only believe this to be true which is in no way more rational than the opposite attitude. The argument of the absolute of Beauty is just there to serve as an illustration. Second point is the following: If there is nothing above man, then man is above all. Then everything is allowed (Clearly such belief is contrary to the ideal of Justice which is the goal of society). If you disagree with this reasoning, then you're not a real atheist for one may ask: why should we have ethics? you may have an answer to this question but your answer will almost certainly be the indirect expression of a judgement not motivated by reason. For example, if you say it is necessary for the well-being of society, I would ask why is the well-being of society something desirable? why is justice desirable? and so on... until you will not have any answer to the question WHY? and you will have to admit the limits of pure reason. You're not a real atheist although you think you are, that is my conviction. Real atheism is something else and leads to other conclusions. If there is no good nor evil, then what some consider to be evil is good and vice versa. if you say something is better than another, it is because you have an idea (perception, as relative as it may be) of what Good is. If you're able to order things this way, then you unconsciously believe in an absolute although you cannot precisely define it (BTW even in math, + and - infinity exist as concepts) Third point is the altruism/solipsism antagonism and the real meaning of the message of Christ which alas you do not seem to comprehend. And at last, the argument that Faith is an unbounded force for life and creation in the sense that people that have Faith are stronger than those who don't. You may choose to remain with your doubts or your empty certitudes and somehow try to convince yourself you "analyze" things. The truth is there are things beyond pure reason and analysis. I myself am no less rational than you are but I have Faith. _______________________________________________ "Illusion pour illusion, nous gardons celle de Dieu, qui donne, seule, à ses éternels éblouis, la joie, la lumière, la force et la paix. Nulle créature, nulle vitalité n'échappe à la Foi.[...] Seulement, l'indécis demeure avec son irrésolution, qui devient la somme nulle de sa vie. Il croit "analyser", il creuse la fosse de son âme et retourne vers un néant qui ne peut plus s'appeler que l'Enfer..." (Villiers de l'Isle Adam)

quote: PS: nobody reacted on the solipsism/altruism issue I meant no self-proclaimed atheist reacted on the issue. HyeBruin actually did and I fully agree with her but her formulation lends to some misinterpretation. This thing about "connection" sounds so "psychic" and new age...

Dear all, First a disclaimer : I may not have been precise enough as my first post is fairly dense and each assertion deserves a dissertation as we seem to be light-years away and not agree on some basic principles. I have to tell you english is not my native tongue (I am much more at ease with french) so semantically, I may not be rigorous enough and I may use words that have a special connotation in your american minds which I'm not aware of. That said, let's answer your objections one by one: quote: I like the way you write and appreciate your emotions. No emotions here, just plain logic. quote: Much like you have successfully described the nature of science, Beauty also exists only within the perimeters of various axiomatic frameworks, therefore, I disagree that it is an abstract category in the sense that we are unable to comprehend Beauty as an abstract category, but can only deal with its particular manifestation.What I want to point out here is that the existence of absolutes cannot be proved or disproved. Either you believe Beauty exists or you don't. Same argument with God. You cannot rationally assert that God doesn't exist, you may only say that you don't know. quote: I also think that it is quite possible to build societies with God and accomplish quite a bit. In my view, the contemporary [especially] European society is an example This is COMPLETELY wrong. Or maybe you mistake God/Christ for the great architect of the free masonic societies. quote: I also think that the righteousness of people is not necessarily a religious or spiritual category. Righteousness has not much to do with the spirituality and faith, overall. Entire civilizations (such as the Roman) and religions (such as Judaism) are based on the concept of righteousness without requiring referral to God. This doesn't contradict my reasoning. You may have the concept of righteousness in the Law but the Law is not enough to achieve it. That is the point. You should read the Epistles of St Paul to the Romans. He offers a number of arguments. quote: I also disagree with your logic that if, God doesn’t exist than Man is God. I think if God doesn’t exist, Man cannot be God, at least because there is no God.Let me rephrase this for you and Sip (You seem to give great importance to the letter and misunderstand the spirit) If nothing exists above Man, then Man is above all. is that a satisfactory formulation? I was not saying: If x doesn't exist then y = x which would be pure nonsense. You should think a bit and ponder my arguments before answering because this is a fundamental part of my argumentation. quote: How so? If faith is so strong, how come so many are "unfaithful" in the world? Here again, a misunderstanding. I was not pretending faith is strong in the sense that one cannot lose faith. Actually most people have lost faith. What I mean is that people who have Faith are stronger in every possible sense to people that don't. But people who have real Faith are not necessarily those who think they do . All the great realizations of Man are those of people who had Faith (in some sense) and if man still creates in this world, it is because of the remaining traces of spirit. The problem is you don't envisage the consequences of pure atheism precisely because you are not pure atheists and you haven't thought enough on this subject. That is actually what I was trying to prove. A pure atheist doesn' believe in Ethics, in Beauty, in any ideal whatsoever and that is why, pure atheism can be equated with theophobia. I know people who would argue: what is Good? what is Evil? what is morality? why morality? If you don't believe in absolutes then there is no Good nor Evil (=> there is no sin). My idea is that although our human perception of ideals is relative, it doesn't imply their non-existence. As far as fear is concerned, it is obviously a driving force of history. One need only consider the Jews and the role of antisemitism (the sentiment for what matters is not actual existence but general perception) in federating them. quote: I doubt that art has an objective of being atheist or religious. This was not what I meant. There is a religious dimension to Art, that is all. Pure atheists cannot produce Art. quote: Art is a form of self-expression and is a communication media for the like-minded One first has to define Art (and this would be an entire subject in its own, I really don't have time during my lunch break ). If you believe that Art is a form of self-expression then my scribbling on a wall is art. This is obviously not true for one has at least to associate art with the quest for Perfection and Beauty which are ideals. Materialists do not have ideals for the simple reason they only believe in matter. quote: As far as death and distraction are concerned, based on human history, there has been nothing more distractive and death-delivering than Religion, Faith, God, etc. Human history is one big Genocide in the name of God, or if God exists, then by God. Nonsense, anything can be exploited. But death and destruction in the name of God fundamentally contradicts the precepts of Christ. You seem to mistake Faith for blindness. As a sidenote, the atheist ideologies of the twentieth century (socialism, communism, nazism) are the one that killed the most. Evil is evil and people that pretend to follow Christ but do evil actually follow Satan. No contradiction here. quote: I also think that the twentieth century has been the most moral century in the history of Humanity, despite all the human cataclysms in that century. At least in the sense of the elevation of the human consciousness to unparalleled heights on the stage of morality. All the atrocities of the twentieth century were committed in the name of progress, freedom, democracy and other false gods and lies. as far as "the elevation of the human consciousness to unparalleled heights on the stage of morality", you ought to be kidding. There is no morality in western societies, just mere greed and hypocrisy which is quite the opposite. In fact, our time is reminiscent of the roman empire on the verge of its decadence. quote: I would rather say that these stages are indicative of evolution of human thought, since God is a static concept, at least in the realm of all major religions I used the term "symbolically", that is to say, it was intended to be a metaphor quote: Consumers don’t want modern art. Those, who are in search of their spirituality, are the ones who want modern art. This is not to say Art doesn't exist in our times but most of what is touted as contemporary art is not Art. No subjective judgement here. quote: To the degree that Armenian identity is linked to spiritual integrity, any other identity also may be linked to such I never said the contrary. But Christian Faith has held a fundamental role in our history. This happens to be true for the Russian people too. quote: spirituality tends to disunite people This is untrue. The meaning you associate with the word spirituality is not clear but you seem to have quite a new age perception of it which has nothing to do with the Christian Orthodox spirituality. People with a common spirit unite. This is an obvious fact. quote: why do we need unity beyond amongst Armenians which is already apparent, the territorial integrity, the Constitution, the economy of our Republic, etc. You seem to attribute greater importance to appearances than to realities. I will not delve into the problems of our diaspora and that of the ROA but armenian unity is more of a wish than a reality. quote: I also don’t know who our enemies are, and being spiritual creatures, why would we have a perception of having enemies.It is a simple fact, not a perception. One simple counterexample to your claim is that a "spiritual creature" was crucified some two thousand years ago and if He were to come among us today, one can be sure history would repeat. One other point is we seem to also have a body and not entirely belong to the immaterial. Or maybe is that just a perception? Please reread my post carefully and try to understand the spirit behind the words. PS: nobody reacted on the solipsism/altruism issue. BTW, have you read Dostoyevsky? [ January 13, 2003, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: axel ]

This is an important debate and although this question has already been raised and discussed, I wanted to share a few thoughts on the subject. Hopefully, these arguments will shed some light on the issue through a different perspective. The question of the existence of God can be answered quite simply, as someone pointed out, as God is first and foremost a spirit and this spirit that encompasses all ideals (Beauty, Truth, Justice...) exists if only by the fact that some are inspired by it, as revealed by their acts in this world. Art is the projection of Beauty in the material domain but Beauty is an abstract ideal that has no material grounds. The existence of Beauty cannot be rationally proven, is that to say that it doesn't exist? Science is about deriving models to describe material phenomenons, it cannot encompass everything. It surely cannot explain anything in the absolute. Indeed, scientific theories are, by nature, constructions built upon (relative to) a given model (or representation) or a set of axioms. God being an absolute, it is out of the reach of science. Of course, one can try to build a world without God and define a society as a federation of self-interests (which is the predominant model, derived from the philosophies of the likes of Hobbes and Rousseau). The question is whether such a society is capable of achieving anything. The example of the tower of Babel is quite eloquent. The fact that it has been identified in ancient times is revealing of the eternal nature of problems man is faced with. I'd like to ask the following questions to the proponents of atheism: Can Justice be achieved without righteous people? if Justice is not the ideal of a society, what is? do you think that Man can be righteous and work towards this ideal of Justice if he doesn't have faith in an ideal that transcends himself? If God doesn't exist, then Man IS God. If Man is God (ie his own ideal and thus his own end), then everything is allowed. The consequences of such belief can be seen in our tragic world. If you believe that we have to follow some ethical principles in our life (and not just adopt a legalistic attitude, for human laws or political systems (eg. democracy) do not guarantee that people do good) regardless of the existence of God, ask yourself why. Actually the fact is we all, consciously or not, follow the precepts of a religion in the sense that our actions are based on moral judgements, on a conception of good and evil. The materialistic and anthropocentric religion (for we have to agree that atheism, the religion of man divinised, which should better be thought of as theophobia, is a religion in itself) that has served as a foundation for modern societies is not superior to that of Christ, it is in fact its negation. The twentieth century has been the tragic illustration of the advent of evil and lie as the fundamental basis of our world. In the end, the essential challenge Man has to endorse in his existence and in history is to reach for something higher by dominating the animal instincts that enslave him to the material world and by defeating his ego and solipsism in order to tend towards altruism and harmony. This is the message of Christ. This is the true meaning of Freedom, the triumph of will. Christ came to raise the level of humanity. Those that scorn Him in fact work, not for the evolution, but for the regression of humanity towards bestiality. This is the hidden goal of atheism. Conceptually, there are three ages in life and in history, the first is that of intuition (and ignorance), the second of reason and knowledge (including the one of evil and suffering) and the third is that of understanding (and the triumph of good over evil). Symbolically, these can be related to the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection. I encourage those who (wrongly) consider themselves as atheists to read Dostoyevsky especially "The Karamazov brothers". If you fail to understand the intrinsic nature of Christianism, it is because you falsely equate it with a set of beliefs or superstitions spread by spiritual crooks or simple-minded people. Nothing is as strong as Faith. Faith is the basis of Life and creation, spirit is the root of culture. When spirit runs dry, culture cristallizes into civilization (as the Greek culture into the Roman civilization) and disappears. Atheism/theophobia is the religion of death and destruction. There is no such thing as atheist art. So-called modern art is just a materialistic parody intended for a consumerist society, for Art is not a product to be consumed but the very expression of the Soul. Armenian identity and culture is fundamentally linked to its spiritual integrity. It cannot be sustained if we, Armenians, lose our Faith. There can be no unity without spiritual communion. This is known to our ennemies and that is why their goal is to destroy our Faith (and that of other people) for their strategy is to divide and conquer. Do not be fooled and do not unconsciously serve their purpose. PS: for an interesting perspective on western civilization: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/...arvard1978.html