Does Armenia have history?

[Rubo]

Some on this forum have made statements such as “Armenia doesn’t have much of history” which incidentally brought strong opposite reactions from me to the contrary. I rather focus on the mindset, which does propagate the status quote western history paradigms. History is written from the perspective of winners and conquerors and to some extent this very notion is the arrogance propagated from a boxed in perspective, which ignores so much out. Small nations not only do have history but also by simply surviving through onslaught of victor nations deserve respect. Israel is such example. Though her entire existence she has been invaded on numerous times just like Armenia but like Armenia Israel survived and this very survival is her greatest achievement but unlike Israel Armenia “does not have history” worthy of scholastic research or insight?

I strongly reject this notion not only because I am an Armenian but more so in fact that I am a human being and as such my heritage is no less important then that of any other nation. I am very much aware about “great nations” and their destructive war goings but shall I place value judgment in favor of violence as opposed to survival? Had the Nazis succeeded conquering the world would that have made the Germany “great nation”? Had the Ottomans conquered all of Europe and the rest of the globe would that made the Turks the greatest people on earth? As you can see victor’s perspective of history is absurd and at the best is the arrogant notion that the victors are the sole propriety of disclaiming what is history and what is not.

[aurguplu]

rubo,

 

i agree with your main point (that armenia has a history), but for a different reason:

 

if armenia were to be considered as not having a history on the grounds that it wasn't an independent state for most of its history, i.e. didn't "exist", as some might put it, then the same argument could have been used for most of the states that came into being after the collapse of the ottoman empire (including, perhaps, even turkey), in fact, most of the states of today.

 

history is not a science. it is a humanity and by the very nature of its substance and the available resources relating to it, one is bound to make value judgments, and sometimes arbitrary ones.

 

it has been said that there is no history, only historians. might well be true.

[Varduhi]

I do agree with you guys, and just let you know(those who think that armenia doesnt have history) that every single THING in the world has its own history. Especially ARMENIA

 

Bye

[Sip]

That is probably one of the most TRUE things anyone has ever said on this forum!

 

History in my opinion comes in several flavors:

 

1) As in: "Oh, that's history ..." meaning we don't care about it,

2) Meaning "what happened in the past" as just being a chronological list of events that happened

3) Denoting the "study of the past" which relates to the "academic" branch of history

4) and of course "ancinet history" which means pretty much irrelevant to anything that's going on now.

 

Anything that has existed, must have at least one of those things in the list! (maybe more) ... to say something doesn't have history implies in didn't exist. In the case of Armenia, that's obviously false.

[Arpa]

Damn it Rubo!

You don't seem to undestand.

Your obssession and fetish with a certain paople borders on perversion.

I thought we agreed to not compare and invoke certain people on this forum.

Let me repeat. What is wrong with us Armenians? Why do we talk about Turks and Turkey 100 times more than we talk about ourselves?

Why do we talk about those other idiots 1000 times more?

Maybe I can understand the first. We have lived with the Turks for almost a thousand years, we have had much intercourse (literally at times), we still do. We have been neighbors, if reluctantly for ten centuries, we still are. When were we neighbors with those other people? When did we even walk in the same path, even if at opposite sides of the road. Where is it written that we have parallel past, present and future? Is it a figment of our imagination? Show me at least ONE evidence where they have said anything even close to it. Show me at least ONE instance where they have even acknowledged our existence. And now tell us why you and many like you feel the need to justify our very being by searching a link. Can we exist without their say so?!!!

Who said that and when?

Israel survived what?

Israel has a history of less than 60 years.

If you wish that we had the same legacy and destiny, think again. They have not had even one moment of peace since 1948, and the prosepct seems even dimmer as time goes on. Is that your wish for us?

If you mean "history" by all those lies and fables then I have nothing to say.

I will not comment about the histocity of our existence, it is self evident. Please show us one shred of evidence that there in fact was an Abraham, a Moses etc. I have heard this from their own mouths that there is no evidence. Myths and mythology. David's historicity is questioned, some suggest that there was not even a Solomon. Again, there is no historical and archeological evidence. Every inch of Palestine has been excavated. Would we not know if there were even a shred of evidence. What some people call "history" is nothing more than myth and wishful thinking. Why is their mythology taken as historical fact while we defile, ignore and reject our own?

 

You may ignore all the above but I DO INSIST THAT YOU AND OTHERS COMPARE AND CONTRAST OUR RESPECTIVE HISTORIES. I will not accept anything short of point by point comparison, era by era, century by century, incident by incident. You must show us how our past, our present and future have any parellel. Let's get to the bottom of this. I want to be convinced. Convince me. Show us step by step. However many points it takes, but do it systematically, i.e.;

Our past is parallel;

1......

2.....

3.....

etc.

Our our prsent is identical.

1.......

2......

3.....

etc.

Our future is similar.

1.......

2......

3.......

 

I don't want fairy tales. Show us facts.

 

Lastly, when you present your points bear in mind that we were murdered in our homes and not 10,000 miles away. That we have not recovered even a red cent while they are still collecting reparations as we sepak(I know this for a fact personally). Our pleas with the great governments fall on deaf ears while they have the world by the tail. Why our lobbies are kmpotent while the world is begging for their favors! Is it because the world is mad of 6 billion Rubos who believe all those fables and lies?.

Christians are being massacred even as we speak all beacuse of them(news of today; An evangelical missionary nurse was killed in South Lebanon)

 

Rubo, I am serious. Let's get to the bottom of this AND THEN HOLD OUR PEACE ONCE AND FOR ALL, LET US NOT SPEAK ABOUT THEM AGAIN.I want answers.Convince me.

As far as I am concerned if we never speak about them again it will be too soon.

Can we talk about ourselves?

Can we talk about them as many times aas they talk about us?

Rubo, do you Armenian history? Let's hear it!

Can we not waste time and talent about them?

How stupid can we be????!!!!

[gamavor]

The funniest part of this topic is that a representative of a "nation", who tried to "finish" with the so-called Armenian question, makes funny statements about history. An analogy comes to mind, such as Australian aborigine talking about nuclear physics. History is a subject that is related to peoples who had history, collective or otherwise. Unfortunately our oppressors were not among the ones who were blessed to have a history. They have no sense of history, or if they have one it is short and colored in blood. And I’m not talking about Armenian Genocide.

 

When talking about Armenian history we should start with the magic word “Genatz”.

[gamavor]

Rubo, I kindly disagree with you. Israel and Armenia are not even remotely close in terms of historical development.

I honestly don't understand why some Diaspora Armenians are so fond of being portrayed as alter ego Jews. Is it a fashion or obsession.

Israel in terms of historical development is much closer to Ukraine for instance, although much more many Ukrainians fell victim to inhumane political regime than Jews.

Poland also follows same pattern.

[Arpa]

While we are waiting for a point by point comparison, or no comparison of our histories and legacies, and I am serious, I demand detailed answers let us consider one thing. Armenians' obssession with the detiny of the "chosen people" is nothing new, it began the day we got to know about them, even Khorenatsi corrupted our culture and history to find parallels and the rest is history as they say.

The only parallel that I can think of is that fact that both peoples are extremely paranoid and xenophobic. Their history is one long vhain of wars (read that book that is supposed to be their history) there is not a day of peace, not one word of love and friendship towards anybody. Our paranoia and xrnophobia can easily be thr cause of our failure and pettiness, we have constantly grown smaller both in numbrs and and land. Both people are extremely paranoid of their neighbors, both pepl xenophobic towards their neighbors, both people have a narrow definition of ethnicity and nationality. When is the last time anybody became Armenian? When is the last time we accepted and adopted an "otar" to become Armenian? When is the last time anybody expressed the desire to be Armenian? How many of us got lost into other nationalities and ethnicities? We constantly talk about marrying a non Armenian, there is a thread going on as we speak. When is the last time an "otar" spouse bceame Armenian? Would we accept them? I have known couples who are married for over 50 years and yet the spouse is always introduced as an "otar". Naturally we qould be afraid of marrying an "otar" since it is a one way path, away, not towards us.

The more we emulate them the more we will keep losing, not only souls but also soil and numbers.

Can we find another model to fashion our destiny upon. Why are we choosing the worlds most paranoid, xenophobic, hostile and offensive people as our model? They have constantly risen in war against their neighbors, they say it was ordered and ordained by God (BS!!), When is the last Armenia rose in war against any of its neigbors? When is the time that Armeniantook even a grain of sand from their naighbors? Evidence is to the contrary. Why can't we try and emulate people like the British, the French, the Swiss, the Indonesians (ssee how thwy arw growing) or even the Autralian aborigines as models. Dare I say emulate the Turk? Does it have to be those SOBs who have never had a friend in the entire world, who have never had even a moment of peace during their entire history? And the prospect gets even dimer as we speak. Why can't we aspire towards more nobility? Do we have to emulate thw worlds' most offensive, hostile and xenophobic people?

 

Can we talk about ourselves and see what it is that makes us tick or rather not tick? It is time we stop denying our mistakes and shortcomings and blaming it on others be it the Jew or the Turk. They are doing just fine, at least for the moment. Let us wprry about ourselves and find out what it is that we did or did not do to find ourselves in these dire straits, that we constantly grown smaller and weaker and keep growing(?) weaker and smaller by the day.

Can we please not talk about them? Two thousand years of aspiring to be like them has won us.... you tell me.

[aurguplu]

a question that comes to my mind, perhaps partially related to the topic above:

 

when the romans conquered the greeks, they were overwhelmed and overawed by the greek culture, and adopted it almost wholesale. much that survives from classical greece survives in the form of roman copies of lost originals.

 

the romans were seen by the greeks pretty much as turks were seen by the armenians and the greeks a thousand years later: barbarians.

 

the turks who attempted to conquer china became chinese within two-three generations. those who attempted to conquer india likewise became indian. those who conquered russia (the mongol armies had substantial numbers of turks). survived in bulk only among the tatars, bashkir and nogai. the turks who conquered iran and who ruled it for four hundred years (the azeris) and produced the safavid and kajar dynasties are iranian in all but language.

 

why did the same thing not happen in anatolia? why have the turks not become armenians or greeks, and allow themselves to be culturally conquered by the culturally superior armenians and greeks?

 

anyone thought about that?

[Rubo]

Arpa,

You took my mentioning Israel out of context. I was only trying to show that Jewish history present and past is relevant subject on just about every major universities, part of western culture etc. and Armenia in my opinion does have similar turbulent past and I brought the Israel as a survival example. My mentioning Israel was to show gross inconsistency of being brainwashed everything Jewish and we got our “intellectuals” degrading ourselves, Armenians even more. A person (MJ) who made those statements can easily make them again and have balls to defend them. The whole topic was deleted.

[MJ]

Sine the day of his arrival, the only context that this corrupt idiot has brought to this forum has been "Israel and Jews." One might’ve noticed that this has been a prominent team of his "enlightening" activism. I have no problem neither with Jews nor with Israel. They are just irrelevant in the context of the past, the present and the future of our Nation. Our paths do not cross.

 

What I find degrading our Nation is the number of these shallow schizophrenics (or as correctly noted above, the intellectual perverts) contaminating the perspective of Armenian Nation.

 

Finally, everything I have said in this forum on the subject of history (as well as many other subjects) is still there, and nothing has been deleted.

 

What has been deleted are the passages demonstrating the lack of merit (as if it is not obvious) of the new miserable failure, the types of which have come and gone in the Hye Forum many times. One more, one less, what difference does it make? He is not the first one, and I can assure you that he would not be the last one.

 

Human failures like him may be well advised to leave this Nations’ perspective alone and, first, to find perspective in their own lives.

[MJ]

It's simple. Armenians have a huge identity conflict/problem. They have not been able to withstand, and moreover, to absorb others.

 

I am sure it wouldn't take long for some idiots in this forum to come up with other interpretations about the "peacefulness" of our nature.

[nairi]

What are you talking about Ali? Have you ever thought about that?

 

Martin, this isn't Anonymous Name-Callers! Get a grip for crying out loud! Enough is enough.

[aurguplu]

nairi,

 

what is not clear about my question?

[MJ]

Nairi, Shot up!

 

Anboch gdali pes kez mechtegh mi gtsir.

[nairi]

Ali, your question is very clear. I'm just wondering since when Mongolians eat dolma and play (adapted) Armenian folk tunes. Perhaps we didn't conquer the Turks of Anatolia, but we sure did influence them. Or perhaps better said, the Turks allowed themselves to be influenced by us, and vice versa of course.

 

Martin, gna banid hetevits. Oh and while you're at it, get shot! http://armenians.com/forum/smile.gif

[Guest Fadi]

quote:

---

why did the same thing not happen in anatolia? why have the turks not become armenians or greeks, and allow themselves to be culturally conquered by the culturally superior armenians and greeks?

---

What would have been the adventages ? Second, what makes you believe that the Turkish culture is so homogenous ?

[MJ]

Nairi,

 

Kokords mi mtir. Ete npatakd srtkharnots arachatsneln e apa du hadjoghutiamb heravorutiunits el es arachatsnum.

 

Just keep your distance and you would be easily ignored. I hoep you finally can get this message.

[nairi]

Martin, just for the record: sa ko mtatselakerpn e, not mine. Yete oozoom es hetgtses, hetgtsir, boyid mernem, I can't stop you. But just so you know, it is YOUR body that will ache in the end, not mine.

 

Nairi

[THOTH]

Ali - I think in some ways the Turks were "conquered" (in a sense....or perhaps better termed "merged") culturally by/with the Greeks (Byzantine’s) - even more so then the other way around (Turks conquering Greeks & such...even though that’s what they did...militarily and administratively)...In many ways the Ottoman Empire functioned as a somewhat Turkish flavored extension of the Byzantine Empire. At least I think an argument could be made that Turks of the Ottoman Empire (ruling/religious/mercantile elites) came to resemble more (and take on the mantel of) the Byzantine’s then the Nomadic Turks of the steppes or even the Turks of other Empires (save perhaps the Caliph thing). And peasants are peasants are they not - substitute Islam for Christianity...and I am led to believe that a substantial portion of "Turkish" folk tradition is more influenced/identical to that of other Anatolian (and Balkan/Crimean/Caucasian etc) peoples then that of those peoples of the (Mongolian) Steppes or such...

 

Arpa - super post! You make some very excellent points - but to Rubo's credit he is correct that he was responding to a post by MJ in another thread (where he said something to the effect that Armenia's history is not worthy of (?) being included in "History" as we conventionally know it). I think Rubo somewhat misinterprets what MJ said however - as the key words were "history as conventionally perceived" or something of that sort - which is the history of Empire, conquest and that of the big guys - not the more personal history of Armenians (as significant as our various deeds and accomplishments may seem to us). (At least this is my interpretation)

 

And I agree - we are certainly not the Jews (but don't think this is what Rubo was saying...though I agree there seems to be a Jewish obsession among many Armenians that is largely overblown – IMO). The Turkish "obsession" I can more logically/emotionally understand...) - and I also fully agree - who would want the situation that they have in Israel? - really now. I do see the "history" of the Jews and Armenians to have some common elements and the peoples to also have some common characteristics. Each of our peoples has had a history of being at the crossroads of Empires and of being vassal and/or trodden over. Each of our peoples has a history of a Diaspora of a sort - of being outsiders/minorities what have you in the lands and cultures of others (and being a subject people in our own lands). And because of this - because of discrimination and restrictions on available means/methods of earning a living etc - each of our peoples has developed mercantile, craft and other specialized (art/medicine etc) skills, each has clung to the religion as a means of national and self identity/expression and with all of this each has developed an appreciation (and need) for advanced education - etc. So yes - I think that we are alike in many ways. Obviously we are unique in many ways as well - and are certainly not the same - if even, as some suggest, we had some common or at least somewhat intermingled (genetic?) background…who knows really? - though I suspect it is possible and perhaps likely...though I don't know nor am I claiming that this is so.

 

And one last thing concerning the Jews (and specifically the/their Holocaust) ...and (in the future) I'll try to consider what you have said Arpa (ie...and drop/minimize these discussions in favor of issues of more relevance to Armenians...though I do think that there are certainly aspects of relevance to us...) Do not think/claim that on an individual level - or that of effect on a psyche of a people - that the fact that Jews were killed/slaughtered in a foreign land (not their "homeland"/ancestral lands etc) make their tragedy any less painful or horrific. (and in fact – their “home”/homes were in Germany, Poland, France, Russia & where-have-you…and particularly in the Western European nations they were very integrated into the societies…it was their home.)

 

What was done to the Jews (and other "unwanteds") by Hitler & the Nazis was barbaric and horrible and equally tragic (for those who succumbed to it, survived it and to those descended from survivors of it) as the experience of the Armenians from the Genocide. As I see it the only "added" burdens (not sure if that’s the correct word) are as follows:

 

1) "Loss" of traditional Armenian "Homeland" - the Anatolian Highlands (only somewhat [recently] offset by the existence of an Armenian nation in the caucuses), and

 

2) the fact that the Genocide goes unrecognized by not only the perpetrators - but by "history" (reference prior usage/discussion) and the (widespread/fundamental) ignorance/incomprehension of the world or our tragedy, and

 

 

3) the active and shameful campaign of denial and worse by the unrepentant descendents of the perpetrators of the Genocide and lastly I will add –

 

4) the fact that the (major representatives of the) "victims" of the other major/primary/ultimate? and completely and totally well known/well accepted/publicized etc genocide of modern times not only refuse to recognize the legitimacy of our tragedy/our pain - but in may instances work (with the perpetrators of denial) against such recognition (inhumane realpolitik of the type used to justify our Genocide in the first place). This latter insult is a key factor increasing the pain and injustice of our tragedy today - IMO. This is partially responsible for such obsession or what have you regarding the Jews I think. In a sense it is a betrayal.

 

All that being said I do not feel a "victim" - at least not obsessed by such in my everyday life. I also don't think that the vast majority of Armenians are - as can be seen by their successes in life etc. But this does not mean that we can entirely move away/ignore these issues...IMO. There...I said it. Comments?

 

Oh - the edit - I cleaned it up just a bit - spelling & organization mostly...added a few things..not much...

 

[ November 22, 2002, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[aurguplu]

i don't know about mongolians, but central asian turks have been doing so for quite a while, as they still are (by the way, as dolma is a turkish word, could you please tell me what it is called in armenian, if it is called anything else?).

 

as for the folk tunes, quite a few of these are widespread as far east as turfan (chinese turkestan) (i happen to have listened to some music from there). also, music is one of the first things that travels. people pick up a good tune, adopt a good instrument almost immediately.

 

doubtlessly there are many things in turkish culture that are armenian (if you gave copperwork or some of the crafts from the east (like "bindallı" for instance) you would have given better examples. but my question was not that. let me make it clearer:

 

by all accounts (including the turks' own accounts), the local anatolian civilisations appear to have been superior to the incoming turkish culture, at least in material culture (where it is most easily observable). also, anatolia at that time appears to have been populated by a total of some 10-12 million people, whereas the incoming turks cannot reliably be shown to have been much above 1.5-2 million people (and that over a period of a hundred years). so the autochtonous people outnumbered the turks 10 to 1, on top of that they had a superior culture. what was it that prevented them to impose their culture to these incoming turks, i.e. conquer them culturally? why don't these turks speak armenian or greek (or whatever else that was spoken then)? why weren't they culturally assimilated, like the romans were in greece, and the turks were in china, india and iran?

 

i am not asking this question with a "hidden agenda" or anything (i sensed something suggestive of that in your reply). i am just curious about it. mj's answer was an interesting one, and if correct, a plausible explanation (i cannot judge whether it was correct or not).

 

i think this is an interesting question, given the fact that the overwhelming majority of anatolian turks are actually the local anatolians who just adopted turkish, some as recently as 200 or even 100 years ago. it is just a very interesting cultural phenomenon.

[aurguplu]

thoth,

 

i agree with you completely (especially ottomans being slightly different byzantines in a way). the thing that puzzles me is that the complete assimilation of the type we succumbed to in china and india did not occur in anatolia. even in iran we were more assimilated. i am not quite sure that religion was the only factor: this was the case in india, too (to some extent), and in iran, many turkish tribes were actually sunni until the safavids decided to make everyone shia to consolidate the state and their hold on the tribes.

 

yours was a good post, but i am still looking for more answers.

 

take care,

[nairi]

Maybe Anatolia simply proved more suitable.

 

This might also be a more interesting question: what is it about Anatolia that spurrs nations to keep themselves alive?

[Boghos]

First of all answering the question that was used as the name for this topic: of course Armenia doesn´t have a history, Armenia and Armenians don´t really exist, they are a figment of your imagination. Somebody conceived an Armenian just to trouble Turkey. If you have a chance to visit the Turkish Ethnographic Museum in Ankara you´ll see that there is no mention of Armenians. We don´t exist, never existed. I don´t exist, our language doesn´t exist, our writers don´t exist, our churches don´t exist. But you can be sure that we´ll keep non-existing for a long time to come.

 

2. Fixation with Jews. But Arpa has already answered in a much more eloquent manner.

 

3. Ali, that´s a lost case, let him come here and write whatever garbage. Let whomever believe that there is anything to gain from his presence. We should not get irritated, I confess that I failed before, but he is just a sick person. we should feel sorry. There is as far as I know good psychiatry in Turkey, but if he prefers to come here, so be it.

 

4. Phonies are phonies whether they write long posts or not.

[Rubo]

MJ"Sine the day of his arrival, the only context that this corrupt idiot has brought to this forum has been "Israel and Jews." One might’ve noticed that this has been a prominent team of his "enlightening" activism. I have no problem neither with Jews nor with Israel. They are just irrelevant in the context of the past, the present and the future of our Nation. Our paths do not cross."

For the record MJ you have demonstrated more then on many occasion your shortfalls of your ideas and as a typical egoist instead of debating and defending your ideas you choose the lower, cheap, insulting name-calling route. Someone who is confident of his ideas should not be afraid of being challenged. Your characterizations of Me,Nairi,Hagarag and others on this forum shows your total lock of maturity and reflects a mindset of bulldog guarding the hen house. You know crap about myself but you fall flat on your vomit on daily bases. Since you have not won any arguments thus far, you choose to slander me just like a cheap charlatan. I got balls and lots of it kiddo just debate me on any of the points I have raised against your writings. I will wait until the day you gather enough courage to be a man.