Kars Phenomenon

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There are many theories trying to explain the real cause of the Fall of Kars. But none of them justifies sensless loss of the city which once was the capital of Armenia. I am not talking about treaties and agreements made around that time. I am interested in the real events of 1920's final hours of the City.

 

For those who does not know. The city (which was heavily fortified and could defend itself) was surrendered to the turks in 2-3 hours whithout fireing a shot.

 

The city had enough canons rifles and ammo and as I said was heavily fortified. It was prepared for the defence. But what happened is the Armenian army commanding officers left and flee the city same did the most part of the soldiers. Some 4000 soldiers and officers stood there and did not fight hoping for a mercy from turks. But when the city was surrendered peacefully to the turks they executed those 4000 man and massacred the civilian population of the city then they plundered the city.

 

I have even talked to survivors of Kars. NO real answer...

 

Some mention bolsheviks as a cause, some the fear, some the treason. But it does not make a sense for me.

 

What's your opinion?

[irlandahay]

There are many theories trying to explain the real cause of the Fall of Kars. But none of them justifies sensless loss of the city which once was the capital of Armenia. I am not talking about treaties and agreements made around that time. I am interested in the real events of 1920's final hours of the City.

 

For those who does not know. The city (which was heavily fortified and could defend itself) was surrendered to the turks in 2-3 hours whithout fireing a shot.

 

The city had enough canons rifles and ammo and as I said was heavily fortified. It was prepared for the defence. But what happened is the Armenian army commanding officers left and flee the city same did the most part of the soldiers. Some 4000 soldiers and officers stood there and did not fight hoping for a mercy from turks. But when the city was surrendered peacefully to the turks they executed those 4000 man and massacred the civilian population of the city then they plundered the city.

 

I have even talked to survivors of Kars. NO real answer...

 

Some mention bolsheviks as a cause, some the fear, some the treason. But it does not make a sense for me.

 

What's your opinion?

yup kars was very very sad, i saw your post yesterday and did a little research...

 

kars was indeed very heavily fortified at the time, when turks arrived they had obtained more then ten thousand rifles 200 cannons and 4000 men from the armenian surrender...but why did they surrender?

this is a very hard question to answer...so il do my best

 

at the moment of kars, there was alot going on in the new republic of armenia

the turks had a large army and were reinforced by other turkic and moslem forces, and truth is, armenia wasnt prepared for war and had no idea of the turkish numbers.

at about the same time they had sent a representative to the british to plea for british help (there was also a huge famine in armenia wich claimed almost 800 000 lives). on the other side, they had russians moving in from the mountaines aided by armenian peasents. soon they had reached the gates of yerevan...and there were many more problems inside armenia (tashnags and bolshevic clashes from 1920 to 1923).

armenia had no power or will to hold theyr outer strongholds, they had to fold back to erevan.

armenia was a mess. they were begging for everyone to help them.

what really screwed armenia over was this: presdent wilson (U.S) was an honest man who was working with armenia and really wanted to see them rise as a potential ally and friend. but when the republicans took over they completely cancelled all wilsons plans for armenia...so seing as how the united states left the british did to. and by that time the turks had kicked out the french from cilicia and greeks from bizantium.

 

armenia was all screwed up back then...its oo sad really, i hate to see them fight between each other...but now its doing better thats the only bright side.

 

personnally i think that it was stupid to give up kars...they were gonna be massacred anyways...why not cause as much grief to turky...and by abandonning kars, they left the gates wide open for the turks to march against alexandropol wich was also an armenian stronghold...wich was of course taken by overwhelming turkish forces and everyone was massacred

 

i ope this answeres your question

[Arpa]

yup kars was very very sad, i saw your post yesterday and did a little research...

=====

i hope this answers your question

Atta man/woman, Irlandahay!!

You are a person after my heart.

“RESEARCH”.

The keyword!

My biggest problem with (Armenian) boards has been the lack and reluctance of some to do “research”, when most of us will parrot what our grandfathers and grandmothers told us in nursery rhymes.

Can I talk?

Please note that many of my posts are an attempt to search and research to the best of my ability, notwithstanding the paucity of resources.

Keep it up Irlandahay. Do more and more RESEARCH!

And, please, do not pull any punches when it comes to OUR mistakes and shortcomings.

We must hear the truth, no matter how painful it may be.

Edited July 11, 2006 by Arpa

[irlandahay]

Atta man/woman, Irlandahay!!

You are a person after my heart.

“RESEARCH”.

The keyword!

My biggest problem with (Armenian) boards has been the lack and reluctance of some to do “research”, when most of us will parrot what our grandfathers and grandmothers told us in nursery rhymes.

Can I talk?

Please note that many of my posts are an attempt to search and research to the best of my ability, notwithstanding the paucity of resources.

Keep it up Irlandahay. Do more and more RESEARCH!

And, please, do not pull any punches when it comes to OUR mistakes and shortcomings.

We must hear the truth, no matter how painful it may be.

lol thanx arpa

but ya, it is very sad to read all this stuff...especially since alot of the history of the time was written by either british american or german whitnesses...funny how those three countreys havnt officially recognized the genocide

 

have you heard about the 1923 bolshevic/ tashnagtsagan clashes?

i personnally support the tashnags(even tho i dont like them theyr still better then communists) but i support armenians as a whole and it is very sad to see this...

 

do you have any idea how many armenians were killed in that clash?

20 000 armenians...i couldnt believe it! and we had at least three different and very powerful enemies!

[Error 404]

Thanks Arpa for your reply.

 

I have got your point and I accept your opinion. I have read all those staff did a lot of research too. But I still can't find a logic in peacefull surrender of Kars to the turks when our forfathers knew turks so well. 1915 was not that long ago and 1000 years of history with the turks should have been in their minds when they were doing that.

 

When was the last time in history when turks showed mercy to the armenians who surrendered themselfs? Mercy to surrendering military personal? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

They knew what were they doing and they also knew what was going to happen to them after surrender in my opinion. Probably hoping on miracle or a dream that they were going to stay alive.

 

I am looking for some other answers or explanation of the events. What was really behind the surrender?

 

We know that before Kars there was Van which defended itself fiercly against the attacks of turks and kurds. They even made their own cannon in the city and were using trophee weapons. Van's defenders did not even have adequate weapons and supplys. But they did the impossible and when the real massacre was not to be avoided they left the city (everyone).

 

Before the battles of Van turkey was close to distinction as a country and nation. We know that. There was almost nothing left from it. But then the russians pull out because of the october revolution and the country was left to us. I also know that 200 000 armenian soldiers were fighting in the western front during that time. But there were also many left in Armenia too.

 

It's a sad part of our history. Like you said Irlandahay Armenians were begging here and there for help. Instead of taking the arms and defending the liberated teritories. It's sad, but we have to admit and mention it. I agree with arpa. Our history has a lot of sad and black pages just because of us. But we have to take responsibility for that. Because one can learn on its own mistakes.

 

Xrimyan Hayrik told that he is going to talk in Berlin congress with the international language. He is going to cry. When he was asked which language is he going to use in Berlin. But he didn't even had a chance to cry because armenian representatives were not even allowed to be present when they were "solving" armenian question. After the congress the same Xrimyan told to his nation love the weapon the solution is in it...

 

 

Maybe I will never know the truth about Kars or noone knows it anymore. The fact is that there is no future without the past. So lets face the past and learn from it. Because right now we are in a situation where history can repeat.

[Arpa]

Thanks Arpa for your reply.

It's a sad part of our history. Like you said Irlandahay Armenians were begging here and there for help.

====

Instead of taking the arms and defending the liberated teritories. It's sad, but we have to admit and mention it. I agree with arpa. Our history has a lot of sad and black pages just because of us. But we have to take responsibility for that. Because one can learn on its own mistakes.

Of course.

We, the “first” Christian nation” could always hope that the French, the British, the Germans, the Russians, mind you, all so called Christians, would come to our rescue. Not to mention such people, once again running the gamut of the alphabet, Afghanis and Zulus would save us, when we had, all but forgotten how to make “Kalashnikovs “ and for the past 1000 years honed the art of making “Khachkars”.

Khachkars up their a…es!

We need more kntaks/gndaks/(cannon)balls, "and the rockets'" red glare, The bombs bursting in air".

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0194015.html

And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,

Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.

O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

Which flag?

The Yeraguyn or the Crescent?

Of course. Our own "village idiot" Phantom is still watching his mail box for that RSVP from Ankara to "come and claim your ancestral lands" or that "ottoman" of all "ottomans", that Ara Balioz-oghlu-bokhju-(ian) to rescue, de-ottomanize himself. The least he can do, before barging into Armenian Fora is to de-ottomanize his damn turkish surname, that is, if he really is an Armenian in the true sense.

Balioz... up your.... noz!!!

Not to mention that other lost soul Vahe Avetovsky who still yearns for those "good old Soviet days"

Edited July 11, 2006 by Arpa

[ED]

Arpa che kareli ham Khachkar sarqel yev nayev zenq?

 

Khachkars have very little to do with christianity and much to do with Art, have you seen any other nation build such a beutifull Art works out of stone?

 

stop your anti-chrsitian shrade Arpa, menak zenqov azg ches pahi

[DominO123]

You mean under the situation of internal siege and British pulling out, the Bolshevics?

 

What about Ardahan? It was not only a matter of military power, but also being fooled, being lied. Chkhenkeli the so-called president of the Transcaucasian Federative Republic ordered the Armenians to surrender Kars to the Turks so that the negotiations could resume, the Turks from there landed on Akhurian river giving them access to the heartland of Russian Armenia. Chkhenkeli who was a Georgian probably thought that by permitting the Turks in Armenia and claiming those lands the lands the Georgians claimed their will be saved, but he opened the doors to the Turks at Batum to claim being unsatisfied with Brest-Litovsk and request the soutern part of Tiflis province giving also access to half of Yerevan province.(and I think we all know what happened then)

 

Chkhenkeli, this piece of sh!t screwed it up, and the Armenians yet again were fooled.

 

Thanks Arpa for your reply.

 

I have got your point and I accept your opinion. I have read all those staff did a lot of research too. But I still can't find a logic in peacefull surrender of Kars to the turks when our forfathers knew turks so well. 1915 was not that long ago and 1000 years of history with the turks should have been in their minds when they were doing that.

 

When was the last time in history when turks showed mercy to the armenians who surrendered themselfs? Mercy to surrendering military personal? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

They knew what were they doing and they also knew what was going to happen to them after surrender in my opinion. Probably hoping on miracle or a dream that they were going to stay alive.

 

I am looking for some other answers or explanation of the events. What was really behind the surrender?

 

We know that before Kars there was Van which defended itself fiercly against the attacks of turks and kurds. They even made their own cannon in the city and were using trophee weapons. Van's defenders did not even have adequate weapons and supplys. But they did the impossible and when the real massacre was not to be avoided they left the city (everyone).

 

Before the battles of Van turkey was close to distinction as a country and nation. We know that. There was almost nothing left from it. But then the russians pull out because of the october revolution and the country was left to us. I also know that 200 000 armenian soldiers were fighting in the western front during that time. But there were also many left in Armenia too.

 

It's a sad part of our history. Like you said Irlandahay Armenians were begging here and there for help. Instead of taking the arms and defending the liberated teritories. It's sad, but we have to admit and mention it. I agree with arpa. Our history has a lot of sad and black pages just because of us. But we have to take responsibility for that. Because one can learn on its own mistakes.

 

Xrimyan Hayrik told that he is going to talk in Berlin congress with the international language. He is going to cry. When he was asked which language is he going to use in Berlin. But he didn't even had a chance to cry because armenian representatives were not even allowed to be present when they were "solving" armenian question. After the congress the same Xrimyan told to his nation love the weapon the solution is in it...

Maybe I will never know the truth about Kars or noone knows it anymore. The fact is that there is no future without the past. So lets face the past and learn from it. Because right now we are in a situation where history can repeat.

Edited July 11, 2006 by QueBeceR

[Arpa]

Arpa che kareli ham Khachkar sarqel yev nayev zenq?

 

Khachkars have very little to do with christianity and much to do with Art, have you seen any other nation build such a beutifull Art works out of stone?

 

stop your anti-chrsitian shrade Arpa, menak zenqov azg ches pahi

Why is it that we copy everything the Yankees have and wre doing... except...

Yes , of course, dear Ed.

Please review your Armenian history and culture, and see what our predecessors said about the subject.

Not my choice of Mesropian transliteration, yet.

WherEsdoes it say- “miyayn khach(kar)ov gah. Hayots….”

Hamozvadz enk, vor myiain zenkov gah

Hayots prgoutioun.

 

 

MENK ANGEGHDZ ZINVOR ENK

 

Menk angeghdz zinvor enk, arants ee vidjag.

Oukhdel enk dzarayel yergar jamanag,

Barsgasdani khorkits yegel eh namag,

Knoum enk parov, goushanank darov,

Aryun sour ou hour, baderazmi tashd

Gusbasen mezi.

Toushmanuh mez dvets chan Feday anoun,

Ayt anvan hamatsayn desank zoroutioun,

Menk chenk ouzoum azad gamki prgoutioun,

Oukhdel enk grvel, ayt sirov mernel,

Hamozvadz enk, vor myiain zenkov gah

Hayots prgoutioun.

Sdampouluh bidi lini aryan dzov,

Amen goghmits griv gusgusi shoudov,

Gotourits Pashgala antsnenk heshd gerbov,

Achits Vartanuh, tsakhits Ishkhanuh,

Kravenk Aghpag, daradzenk sarsap,

Park Tashnagtsoutian.

Pashgala kavaroum, ayn baderazmin,

Aveli medz sarsap direts soultanin,

Kach Zeitounuh haghtets vad char kazanuh,

Getseh Zeitounuh, khrokhd Sassounuh,

Tashnagtsoutiounuh Pakhdavor orer

Barkevets Hayoun

 

Have you heard this?

The Song

Down went the gunner, a bullet was his fate

Down went the gunner, then the gunners mate

Up jumped the sky pilot, gave the boys a look

And manned the gun himself as he laid aside The Book, shouting

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition and we'll all stay free!

Praise the Lord and swing into position!

Can't afford to sit around and wishin'

Praise the Lord we're all between perdition

and the deep blue sea!

Yes the sky pilot said it

You've got to give him credit

for a son - of - gun - of - a - gunner was he,

Shouting;

Praise the Lord we're on a mighty mission!

All aboard, we're not a - goin' fishin;

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition[/b ]and we'll all stay free.

 

Yes, of course, praise the Lord, the khachkar, how about the “ammunition”?

Edited July 11, 2006 by Arpa

[Takoush]

Arpa che kareli ham Khachkar sarqel yev nayev zenq?

 

Khachkars have very little to do with christianity and much to do with Art, have you seen any other nation build such a beutifull Art works out of stone?

 

stop your anti-chrsitian shrade Arpa, menak zenqov azg ches pahi

Ed jan; Im moryeghpor gine 2 dari arach katsadz er Hayastan yev ints badmets teh Khachkarnere amen min ir endanegan badmoutyune ouni. Shad hedakrkragan eh yev shad siroun en nayev neshanavor en irents badmoutyunnerov. Aytbes esav nayev antys mer neshanavor Khatchkarneri masin.

Edited July 11, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

Arpa pal; just like the song says, when the ripe time comes, then we'll sing and act upon to "Praise the Lord and to pass the ammunition too"!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Remember, our super heroe men just recently fought for our Artsakh. Lets remember that with pride and gratitude in our hearts!!!!!!!!!!

[Error 404]

Looks like everyone is getting heated up.

 

I don't know Ara Balzioyan(or whatever the hell his name is) or the others you mentioned arpa. But I red about Vasak Mamikonyan, Meruzhan Artsruni both from noble families and treators. I guess Ara Balozian and the people you have mentioned are like them. We have to admit our mistakes and be responsible for them. But we don't have to hate our nation.

 

I think we are slowly getting away from the main subject. It seems to me we are trying to generalize the real causes of the fall of Kars. I agree with you guys alot. We need Khachkars but we also need kalashnikovs, we have a history but we dont have our historical lands, we have Aram Xachaturyan but we don't have mature diplomats today. We had Andranik and Garegin Nzhdeh. Whithout them we probably would not have half of current Armenia. They served and saved our homeland. But again this is like generalizing the Kars issue.

 

The version with Kaukasian Federation Presidetn's (vraci erku eresani shun) could make sense. But I do not belive armenian soldiers would surrender the city and themselfs to death by an order of some vraci shun.

 

I haven't been in a real war. But I imagine surrendering to the enemy is when couple of them are standing 2-3 feets away from you and holding the barrels of their rifles to your face. Maybe then one will surrender.

 

I don't know... Its ironical.

.... armenian girls and women jumped from the mountains so the turk and kurd bashibozuks will not get them in 1915 . And here our soldiers surrender themselfs without a battle...

 

Armenian soldiers at Kars did not even start the battle they didn't know who is going to win but they knew what is going to happen when they surrender. They would have rather run away with others and leave the city for turks. But why 4000 military personal and the civilian population stood and surrendered the city? Something is fishy.

 

Can you imagine a situation where azeris are coming and armenian army and civilian population surrenders in Karabax? Could something like this happen? Those guys have seen the enemy in its cruelty they know what is going to happen when they surrender. Same with the civilian population. They have seen baku and sumgait and other incidents.

 

On the other hand azeris have seen our soldiers in their glance. They will not attack yet.

 

Like I said we may never know what was really going on during the last days of Kars. I appologize for my ignorance. So far I only heard conspiracies but no real answer which makes sense to me.

[DominO123]

The version with Kaukasian Federation Presidetn's (vraci erku eresani shun) could make sense. But I do not belive armenian soldiers would surrender the city and themselfs to death by an order of some vraci shun.

 

Actually they did, the same way that the British tried convincing Artsakh local Armenians autorities to temporarly cede to the Azeris until the negatiations could resume at the peace conference.

 

The Turks were getting over the days stronger, the Armenians thought that they will be supported during the negotiations and then backup up so that the Turks will just have to get out, but the Turks actually used this as success to then request more than Brest-Litovsk.

[irlandahay]

Arpa che kareli ham Khachkar sarqel yev nayev zenq?

 

Khachkars have very little to do with christianity and much to do with Art, have you seen any other nation build such a beutifull Art works out of stone?

 

stop your anti-chrsitian shrade Arpa, menak zenqov azg ches pahi

 

no no edward...he is right, we need to fight...zenkerov ev ameninch

 

im sorry paits menk hayer shad ergayn jamanag espasetsink payts mege chegav

 

at one point our peacful forgivness will have to stop...turks are animals wich means they smell weakness...so lets not give them the satisfaction of smelling fresh meat

 

arpa...you are an atheist?

[irlandahay]

Arpa pal; just like the song says, when the ripe time comes, then we'll sing and act upon to "Praise the Lord and to pass the ammunition too"!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Remember, our super heroe men just recently fought for our Artsakh. Lets remember that with pride and gratitude in our hearts!!!!!!!!!!

huh? lol im sorry but who is the super hero your talking about? (im a lil lost)

 

good news quebecer! HArper recognized artsakh!

so how bad is he now? standing up to turks and azeris and helping out armenians twice in just a couple months?

seriously...hes awesome!!!

[DominO123]

huh? lol im sorry but who is the super hero your talking about? (im a lil lost)

 

good news quebecer! HArper recognized artsakh!

so how bad is he now? standing up to turks and azeris and helping out armenians twice in just a couple months?

seriously...hes awesome!!!

 

Where have you taken that information?

[Dave]

I have read about a Torontonian Conservative MP, Jason Kenny, who attended a fundraiser for the All-Armenian Fund. This irritated the Azeris greatly. NKR's anthem was played during the event while the Conservative MP was present, and this has been interpreted by the Azeris as some kind of support to NKR by the Canadian government.

 

I haven't heard of Harper's official recognition of Karabagh, however.

Edited July 12, 2006 by Dave

[irlandahay]

I have read about a Torontonian Conservative MP, Jason Kenny, who attended a fundraiser for the All-Armenian Fund. This irritated the Azeris greatly. NKR's anthem was played during the event while the Conservative MP was present, and this has been interpreted by the Azeris as some kind of support to NKR by the Canadian government.

 

I haven't heard of Harper's official recognition of Karabagh, however.

 

ya

 

but when he answered the azeris he said nagorno karabakh is a free armenian state

[Error 404]

Admin or Moderator,

 

could you please erase all the non-topic-related messages from this thread. This is a serious issue and it needs serious answers.

 

Please post here if you have thoughts or info close to the topic.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[ED]

steve stop spamming or you;ll get a warning, there is a humor section for that

[Takoush]

There are many theories trying to explain the real cause of the Fall of Kars. But none of them justifies sensless loss of the city which once was the capital of Armenia. I am not talking about treaties and agreements made around that time. I am interested in the real events of 1920's final hours of the City.

 

For those who does not know. The city (which was heavily fortified and could defend itself) was surrendered to the turks in 2-3 hours whithout fireing a shot.

 

The city had enough canons rifles and ammo and as I said was heavily fortified. It was prepared for the defence. But what happened is the Armenian army commanding officers left and flee the city same did the most part of the soldiers. Some 4000 soldiers and officers stood there and did not fight hoping for a mercy from turks. But when the city was surrendered peacefully to the turks they executed those 4000 man and massacred the civilian population of the city then they plundered the city.

 

I have even talked to survivors of Kars. NO real answer...

 

Some mention bolsheviks as a cause, some the fear, some the treason. But it does not make a sense for me.

 

What's your opinion?

 

Error; the time span you're talking about is right after Armenia was free for 2 1/2 years. Right before communism put their big bear paw on our Republic. Could this be the time when General Antranik believed the British and ceceded having all his faith in their beloney talks and lies?

 

I will personally look into this part of the history and I will try to come back with the results that I've got.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2007 by Anahid Takouhi

[neko]

steve stop spamming or you;ll get a warning, there is a humor section for that

I spent over half an hour looking for that "serious cat - serious thread" meme.

It was a legitimate response to Error404s somewhat pompous request to delete other peoples posts just because he doesn't deem them fit for his pupose.

 

[Error 404]

neko now that I am a moderator I am able to see the hidden messages. The ones that JERKS like you can post and then get hidden by moderators because they don't make sense.

 

If you see that you can't make sense in the thread, please be kind and obey leaving your dirt/shitmarks in the thread. So that we(all) can save some nerves.

[gamavor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3RmicCbeOvg