bellthecat Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Is this Armenian writing readable, and if it is would someone like to have a go at translating it into English? It is a piece of tourist graffiti from 1903 written on a wall of a church at Ani, and it might be interesting if it gives an insight into what people 100 years ago were thinking when they visited the ruins of Ani. There are lots of other similar examples inside the same church (I'll post some more of them later maybe), but this is the one with the clearest writing. http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/virtualani/inscription1b.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 (edited) Is this Armenian writing readable, and if it is would someone like to have a go at translating it into English? It is a piece of tourist graffiti from 1903 written on a wall of a church at Ani, and it might be interesting if it gives an insight into what people 100 years ago were thinking when they visited the ruins of Ani. There are lots of other similar examples inside the same church (I'll post some more of them later maybe), but this is the one with the clearest writing. Image I'll give it a try. ~~~ Shmavon Altouneants Karapet Pholateants Karneci (from Karin, a town near Ghars) 1903 July 13th I have no idea how to translate "mtkic chancats". ...didn't get to meet and see because of fate with happiness we came to Ani. We're departing with sadness and leaving sparkles in Armenian hearts. Be well oh you Ani...ruin the house? Edited August 22, 2004 by Teutonic Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 (edited) Thanks. It seems to have just the sort of content that I was hoping for. If other can add to or improve on the translation then please try (no disrespect to Teutonic Knight intended - the more people that work on a translation the more accurate it will be). Would Karin really be Erzurum I wonder, since that was in Turkish territory (and Ani was in Russian territory at that time)? Edited August 23, 2004 by bellthecat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 (edited) very poorly written piece, with many spelling errors. it seems an eastern speaker has dictated and western speaker has phonetically written it. here is what i figured from it. Շմաւօն Ալթունեանց Կարապետ Փոլատեանց Կարնեցի. 1903 Յուլիս 13ին Մտկից չանցած յանտիպել յաչողցրէց բաղտը մեզ տեսանել ուրախութեամբ եկանք անի գնումէնք տրտում թողնելով կայծեր Հայերիս սրտին մնաս բարեաւ ա՜խ տու անի Քանթո ղիտ տունը քանտուի: Shmavon Altuneants Karapet Polateants Karnetsi. 1903 Hulis 13in Mtkits chantsats handipel hajoghtsrets bakht@ mez tesanel urakhuteamb ekanq ani gnumenq trtum toghnelov kaytser Hayeris srtin mnas bareav akh du ani Qando[-] ghit tun@ qandvi: Shmavon Altuneants Karapet Polateants From Karin (or from Garni). 1903 on July 13 Never passed through [our] minds to meet Fate helped us to see we came to ani with happiness we are leaving sadly, leaving sparkles in [us] Armenians' hearts[.] Be well oh you Ani (TK)[.] Let the house of your destroyer be destroyed. Edited August 23, 2004 by Harut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 (edited) Let the house of your destroyer be destroyed. Amen! Fixed quote Edited August 23, 2004 by ExtraHye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Shmavon Altuneants Karapet Polateants From Karin (or from Garni). 1903 on July 13 Never passed through [our] minds to meet Fate helped us to see we came to ani with happiness we are leaving sadly, leaving sparkles in [us] Armenians' hearts[.] Be well oh you Ani (TK)[.] Let the house of your destroyer be destroyed. Thanks a lot Harut, that was lovely Can I nitpick at a few lines of it though! "Never passed through our minds to meet" Is what the writer means perhaps "We never imagined we would meet" (I am thinking regarding your western Armenian and Eastern Armenian comment that maybe they arrived at Ani separately, coming from different destinations, and just happened to meet.) we are leaving sadly, leaving sparkles in [us] Armenians' hearts[.] Does this bit mean "we are leaving with sadness" or "it is sad we are leaving"? And the next bit - is this more right? "leaving with sparkles in our Armenian hearts". Also, I'm wondering if "leaving with fire", or "leaving with sparks" is more accurate. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Thanks. It seems to have just the sort of content that I was hoping for. If other can add to or improve on the translation then please try (no disrespect to Teutonic Knight intended - the more people that work on a translation the more accurate it will be). Would Karin really be Erzurum I wonder, since that was in Turkish territory (and Ani was in Russian territory at that time)? Hello Steve, Karin is Erzurum. The hometown of a Tashnakzgan member of the Ottoman Parliament, Armen Garo, later Ambassador of Armenia to the US. In his memoirs he always refers to his hometown as Karin interchangeably with Erzurum. This is just but one source, maps and many other writings also use Karin for Erzurum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Shmavon Altuneants Karapet Polateants From Karin (or from Garni). 1903 on July 13 I think the earlier interpretation that he was from Karin, a place near Kars is more accurate, since Garni is in Eastern Armenia where people speak Eastern Armenian, and this man definately uses Western Armenian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Thanks a lot Harut, that was lovely Can I nitpick at a few lines of it though! Is what the writer means perhaps "We never imagined we would meet" (I am thinking regarding your western Armenian and Eastern Armenian comment that maybe they arrived at Ani separately, coming from different destinations, and just happened to meet.) Does this bit mean "we are leaving with sadness" or "it is sad we are leaving"? And the next bit - is this more right? "leaving with sparkles in our Armenian hearts". Also, I'm wondering if "leaving with fire", or "leaving with sparks" is more accurate. Steve I sort of understood that these men have met before and just happened to meet again in Ani, he is saying fate brought us together (AGAIN?). He is DEFINITELY saying we are leaving with sadness but with fire in our heart. This means we saw Ani in ruins and it got us sad but we have fire in our hearts now because we know what kind of rich culture/city/churches we built back in the days. We understand better who we are as Armenians. The man definately seems educated, knows history, has sensitivity for the Armenian cause, basically not an accidental tourist from a nearby village. I hope this was helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 Unfortunately none of my other pictures are as clear as the first photo, but here is another section of writing that might be readable if someone wants to have a go at translating it. http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/virtualani/13detail.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 And another, a bit shorter. http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/virtualani/15detail.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 (edited) Is what the writer means perhaps "We never imagined we would meet" (I am thinking regarding your western Armenian and Eastern Armenian comment that maybe they arrived at Ani separately, coming from different destinations, and just happened to meet.) Literally translated, this is what I get: "Not crossed mind to meet" Does this bit mean "we are leaving with sadness" or "it is sad we are leaving"? This part is a bit messy, because the grammar doesn't make sense. I'm not sure what he means. Here's a lit. trans.: "We go sadly leaving Sparks my Armenians in heart stay" The trouble is the verbs "leaving" and "stay". If it was one sentence, there would be no "stay". But we have "stay", so there's two sentences apparently: "We go sadly leaving" and "Sparks my Armenians in heart stay" (i.e. Stay sparks in the heart of my Armenians - "stay" being an imperative, referring to Ani as far as I can see). Plus, "toghnelov" (leaving) needs an object and generally means "leaving behind". This is where it becomes even messier, because we anticipate that something (an object) is left behind, but we soon find out that the "sparks" in the next line belong to a separate sentence, namely "Sparks my Armenians in heart stay". This is where we need to fill in the gaps and "correct" the grammar and hope to find a midway, which is never garanteed to be correct. I think it's up to you to choose how you want to interpret it. Whether you want to read the two lines as one sentence, thereby fixing the grammar, or reading them as two sentences the way they're presented. Sorry, can't help with the transcription. I'm very bad at deciphering stuff like that. Edited August 27, 2004 by nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 (edited) I guess I could be a little bit more specific, in case it's necessary: Sentence 1: We go sadly leaving behind Here's how you can read it in parts: 1. [[We go] sadly leaving behind]] or 2. [[We go sadly] leaving behind]] I hope you understand what I mean with the brackets: the different ways the sentence can be read. So you see it's ambiguous there. Up to you to make up your mind how to read the sentence. Either "We are going sadly", or "We are sadly leaving behind [unidentified object]". As we said, "toghnelov" needs an object. So there's two options left. Either the object is simply missing (easiest way out), or it's hidden somewhere else. We know the object can't be "sparks", so we need another noun. Line 3: "We came in happiness to Ani". Could it be Ani? "We go sadly leaving behind Ani"? Who knows? It's an option though. And it makes sense, because as I said, the verb "stay" refers to Ani, even though it was mentioned two lines earlier. You had another question about "sadly", whether it could be "in sadness". Well, literally "trtum" is either an adjective or an adverb. In English we know that adverbs "modify" verbs and we must add a -ly to the adjective to make it grammatical (in the sense of what we learn at school). So: "We are going sadly" and not "We are going sad". I don't think the meaning changes much though if you use a noun there instead of an adverb. I mean, what's the difference between "We are going sadly" and "We are going in sadness" in meaning? Fact is, they are sad Edited August 27, 2004 by nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 (edited) Is what the writer means perhaps "We never imagined we would meet" (I am thinking regarding your western Armenian and Eastern Armenian comment that maybe they arrived at Ani separately, coming from different destinations, and just happened to meet.) I think they mean Ani. They're speaking to Ani: "I never thought you (Ani) and we (authors) would meet". It's all written in the second person singular (you). I can only guess it refers to Ani, also considering that the last two sentences I analyzed also refer to Ani. Edited August 27, 2004 by nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Thank's Nairi. Interesting. So we could say that those words are actually being mainly addressed to Ani in "person". How about the other two inscriptions, guys? Anything to make of them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Thank's Nairi. Interesting. So we could say that those words are actually being mainly addressed to Ani in "person". I think so, but someone else might read it differently and disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 I've come across other things written "to" Ani as if "she" was a woman. The place does that to you. PS: You are up late! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 (edited) I've come across other things written "to" Ani as if "she" was a woman. Is that why many parents name their daughters, as opposed to sons, Ani? PS: You are up late! I'm just waking up Edit: Oh and there's no gender in the poem... Edited August 28, 2004 by nairi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Is that why many parents name their daughters, as opposed to sons, Ani? I'm just waking up Edit: Oh and there's no gender in the poem... I think that the popular concept of thinking of Ani as a woman originated during the second half of the 19th century. (Remember there was a thread here a while ago about a poem "Ani in Mourning", can't find it though - searching for "Ani" is not possible - the word is too short <_< ). Since the personification of Armenia was female, when Ani also began to become a symbol of Armenia, it too became female. So there were probably not any parents naming their daughters Ani before that time. But Ani was always a "she", never an "it" - it was just that few people knew about her before that time. And now, poor Ani, no one to protect her or comfort her. PPS Just waking up? - I thought you were in the Netherlands - which would be about 2am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 do you mean this? http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=5288&hl= I added a post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Thanks Nairi I had searched for "Ani poem" but nothing came up. Wow, I posted it over 2 years ago. Where has the time gone. (And what happened to Kazza, I wonder?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 I searched for translation bellthecat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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