Sasun Posted August 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Hm - well onnig (and most/many other Christians seem to think so) - for example - this post of his from the thread that this broke off from...(my bold) I don't think so, Jesus didn't say what you are saying. So again you started spamming the same usual way posting from other websites. Well I don't intend to keep too many off-topic posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 And yet more... http://christianmorality.com/revolution.html hm.. Romans 13 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. http://www.anatheist.com/Articles/god_contradictions.html (for the above the last two pieces - "the problem of evil" and the "Problem of unbelief" are relevant to the discussion IMO)...the whole argument about God being contradictory is a nice read as well - IMO... and from the same source as the above - (Bible & Morality) (and this concept of inherited guilt and such - fits in with my earlier claims about Christianity and man being considered eveil - etc) http://www.anatheist.com/Articles/morality_bible.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 (edited) For Anoushik and other disbelievers of human unselfishness, I suggest you read the article "Doing well and doing good, Why a new golden age of philanthropy may be dawning" in the Jul 29th, 2004 issue of the economist (maybe I will post the article later on). This article is using research based on real data on philantropy. As a matter of fact, research shows that people who adhere a religion donate more than others. This is a fact Edited August 23, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 I don't think so, Jesus didn't say what you are saying. So again you started spamming the same usual way posting from other websites. Well I don't intend to keep too many off-topic posts. Everything I am posting is entirely on topic. If you start deleating its very telling and confirms that you are censoring ideas different from what you believe - shame on you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 As a matter of fact, research shows that people who adhere a religion donate more than others. This is a fact Will that get them into heaven you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Everything I am posting is entirely on topic. If you start deleating its very telling and confirms that you are censoring ideas different from what you believe - shame on you! I am not going to waste my time arguing with you, just keep in mind spamming and posting off topic are against the forum rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Everything I am posting is entirely on topic. If you start deleating its very telling and confirms that you are censoring ideas different from what you believe - shame on you! Oh you are just using the topic as an excuse to attack Christians... and you are telling me shame on you, why shame on me? I haven't yet deleted your posts and you started crying already??? Why should you be allowed to be above the rules? It is only allowed for those whose blood is blue, so if you are one of them you should present a certificate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Most americans and especially europeans think there is no morality in self-sacrifice just because U.S. and Europe didn't have real wars on their soil for a half of century. Because of the relative technological advantage these countries have, soldier's life is considered to be a paid job. He/she is paid to die. This technological advantage makes it possible to conscipt the dumbest, uneducated mass to the army. Does it take much of a skill to push a certain botton at a given time? The turth is that EU and especially U.S. are on the immoral side: the bad guys. U.S. has conquered another country for its oil interests. Well, how can you convince a U.S. citizen that an american soldier is moral and is dieing for his/her security? You can't. If for example Russia again becomes an Evil Empire with the same military technological level of "pushing buttons war" and attacks Europe, some of our european forumers will immediately start valueing the idea of a soldier again. Woman will start marring soldiers again and the level of gays and other perverts in Europe will drastically fall. There will be no time for that You may ask, "hey, you love wars more than gays?". Valid question. However, it is the U.S. and EU that now push the world towards war because of their oil interests not the arabs, terrorists or anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Title of thread - "Thoughts about religion and morality" I recommend the following reads: http://www.anatheist.com/Articles/morality_absolute.html (exerpts from the code of Hammurabi are interesting - don't you think?)...and some other things to consider - God violating several of the 10 commandments...and for all the Christian guys out there - isomethign to consider -f you lust after another women you have already commited adultry (Matt. 5:27-28) - lol http://www.anatheist.com/Articles/morality_christianity.html (above makes good point that bible & Christianity alone insufficient for all ethical questions) ..and of course from the morality_bible post (previous) - the discussion of the moral justifications for slavery from the bible....yeah...and some speak of relativism... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Sasun jan, how can you convince a Jew that there is something good about Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Most americans and especially europeans think there is no morality in self-sacrifice just because U.S. and Europe didn't have real wars on their soil for a half of century. Is this conclusion based on a poll/survey result or are you just speculating (this supposed cause & effect)? Because of the relative technological advantage these countries have, soldier's life is considered to be a paid job. He/she is paid to die. No - they are paid to kill others and prevent them from doing us harm...in theory This technological advantage makes it possible to conscipt the dumbest, uneducated mass to the army. Does it take much of a skill to push a certain botton at a given time? Obviously there are issues of Western armies being manned by social underclass - etc - and such - (though what is new about this even under the draft etc?)...but I dispute that average soldier is necessarily stupid. Sure they are young - and often unschooled...but you might be suprised at the level of technical skills required for a great many military functions...etc The turth is that EU and especially U.S. are on the immoral side: the bad guys. U.S. has conquered another country for its oil interests. Well, how can you convince a U.S. citizen that an american soldier is moral and is dieing for his/her security? You can't. Well - I don't think it is so simple as this. I'm not going to argue if it was the right or maral/immoral thing for US to invade Iraq - because I was very much against such an invasion - but I don't think it is so clear cut that it was/is immoral per se. Again - its more complicated then this... But I can agree with you certainly on the 2nd part - I don't think US soldiers are dying for US security per se... and I agree - its a tough sell... If for example Russia again becomes an Evil Empire with the same military technological level of "pushing buttons war" and attacks Europe, some of our european forumers will immediately start valueing the idea of a soldier again. Woman will start marring soldiers again and the level of gays and other perverts in Europe will drastically fall. There will be no time for that You've lost me completley here. OK - life is easy in the West...but I don't see what this has to do with gays etc - no matter (never mind)... You may ask, "hey, you love wars more than gays?". Valid question. However, it is the U.S. and EU that now push the world towards war because of their oil interests not the arabs, terrorists or anyone else. Again the gay thing? - no idea really....and regardign oil interests...well yeah - but we do need oil...and what a joke on history that most of it is "owned" by Arabs and such - no? And you do think terrorists are bad guys do you not? I certainly do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Sasun jan, how can you convince a Jew that there is something good about Christianity. hm - well the Jews (of Isreal) must love Christianity don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Sasun jan, how can you convince a Jew that there is something good about Christianity. I think many unorthodox and not particularly religious Jews (at least those who live in the US and Europe) appreciate Christian values. They would not call Jesus God but they seem to have adapted to the Christian environments they live in. In doing so they have automatically taken some of the assumed values of Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Is this conclusion based on a poll/survey result or are you just speculating (this supposed cause & effect)? I am speculating. That's the idea that I get from media. I believe most of us are speculating om this board. No - they are paid to kill others and prevent them from doing us harm...in theory In theory, but in practice they are also paid for attacking and securing interests. They are mercenaries not soldgiers. Obviously there are issues of Western armies being manned by social underclass - etc - and such - (though what is new about this even under the draft etc?)...but I dispute that average soldier is necessarily stupid. Sure they are young - and often unschooled...but you might be suprised at the level of technical skills required for a great many military functions...etc Yes, but it requires less morals, spirit and courage. Meaning, they may not be convinced that what they do is right. But they do it anyway because the possibility of death is not that high. You've lost me completley here. OK - life is easy in the West...but I don't see what this has to do with gays etc - no matter (never mind)... Again the gay thing? - no idea really....and regardign oil interests...well yeah - but we do need oil...and what a joke on history that most of it is "owned" by Arabs and such - no? And you do think terrorists are bad guys do you not? I certainly do.... Indeed, nevermind the gays. I couldn't have said it better Yes. I think terrorists are evil. To put it in my terms. The West and terrorists represent two sides of evil: the West represents Ahriman - dehumnized mechanical system of materialist instincts, where human decision plays no role whatsoever the Terrorists represent Lucifer - ultimate ungrounded emotional hatered, xenophobia, fanatism Both are aimed to derail human development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 I think many unorthodox and not particularly religious Jews (at least those who live in the US and Europe) appreciate Christian values. They would not call Jesus God but they seem to have adapted to the Christian environments they live in. In doing so they have automatically taken some of the assumed values of Christianity. Some of them do it because that's in their interest. Some others are truly OK with Chrisitianity and I don't have anything agaist them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Thoth what's your frustration with Christianity anyway? Yes, we all know Christian 'rules' were written by bigoted old fools when people used to herd sheep all day, and were never changed because of some weird sense of tradition. If you can't see beyond that than I don't know what to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 I think many unorthodox and not particularly religious Jews (at least those who live in the US and Europe) appreciate Christian values. They would not call Jesus God but they seem to have adapted to the Christian environments they live in. In doing so they have automatically taken some of the assumed values of Christianity. I find this statement to be incredibly naive. First of all do we not consider our culture (cultural values & such) to be JUdeao-Christian? And please just where did these Christian values come from? And if they are Jewish (even non-religeous) how could they accept all the Christain propoganda about Christ (unless they are specifically "Jews for Jesus"...and these guys are even worse then Sri Chinmoy followers in terms of cult fanatasicism etc) Second - you obviously have no clue concerning Jewish folks. Regardless of their level of Orthodoxy - thems fighting words! (to imply that they have "given in" to Christianity) Judeaism is nearly (but not quite) as kooky as Christianity in my book - but as practiced by the majority of Jews tend to be more tolerant and accepting of diverse (religeous) opinions - then that of the "average" Christian...the problem with both (all) relgions of course - are the fanatics...and I've argued and argues with certain Jewish friends/aquaintences who like to claim that (religeous) fanatasicm is primarily a Christian and Muslim thing...and of course - i cannot agree with this contention...even if, for the most part, I find greater tolerance in/with the (average) Jewish believer then with most Christians... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Thoth what's your frustration with Christianity anyway? Yes, we all know Christian 'rules' were written by bigoted old fools when people used to herd sheep all day, and were never changed because of some weird sense of tradition. If you can't see beyond that than I don't know what to say. Believe me - I wouldn't care if no one else did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 That's very typical of us humans Nakharar, most of us are really petty and selfish, one can die for ourselves but we will call him a suspect. However, what I have to say is, if you can't be a hero then don't try to degrade those who are heroes. I for myself am not anything like a hero but I certainly appreciate those who have died for me without even knowing me. Sasun, really, I don't mean to be disrespectful and I appreciate every person who's risked his life for something that he believes in, but don't you think that people who courageously fight for something they are also doing it for themselves. I'm not saying that they are looking to be famous or to be admired but what I mean is that they feel a threat and realize that it's time to take action, not for me and you but for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Sasun, really, I don't mean to be disrespectful and I appreciate every person who's risked his life for something that he believes in, but don't you think that people who courageously fight for something they are also doing it for themselves. I'm not saying that they are looking to be famous or to be admired but what I mean is that they feel a threat and realize that it's time to take action, not for me and you but for themselves. Monte Melkonyan left his comfortable life and went to the Middle East to fight for the suppressed and humiliated, later on he went to fight in Artsax for our liberation where he died. He could have chosen to live comfortably in the US but he did not. There are many examples of true self-giving. Why are you doubting? Just look at the facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Sasun, this discussion completely turned the wrong way for which I take some responsibilty. I didn't mean to discuss morality in this way. Of course I realize Monte Melkonyan's heroism and so many other people like him and I bow to them. I guess this discussion about morality started because I object to the idea that in order for morality to exist God has to exist. Anyway, I won't go any further with this question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Anoushik, I suggest you read Kant's Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals. It's quite heavy, but worth the read. It's not a book that you can read in a leisurely way. Some passages were really beyond me and caused me severe headaches. Believe me trying to finish those books will shorten your lifespan by about several years. I for one never believed that morals are contingent to religions like they are trying to make us believe. Maybe Kant was one of the first Existentialists, despite his apparent rigid rationalism and countless refutations made by critics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Sasun, this discussion completely turned the wrong way for which I take some responsibilty. I didn't mean to discuss morality in this way. Of course I realize Monte Melkonyan's heroism and so many other people like him and I bow to them. I guess this discussion about morality started because I object to the idea that in order for morality to exist God has to exist. Anyway, I won't go any further with this question. I understand Anoushik. From my point of view both God and morality exist. However, for someone to be moral s/he does not have to believe in God. On the other hand, at least when it comes to charity, according to the above mentioned research people who believe in God are more generous, i.e. more moral in the dimension of philantropy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 (edited) Check the vid...sums it up quite well - IMO.... edit: you can't post obscene links/ Sasun Edited August 26, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Thoth, remove this link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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