Turkish Massacres?

[hytga]

i've come across some turkish sites referencing to armenian massacres of turks, based on a book

 

 

"Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill

Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages).

 

p. 19 (first paragraph)

 

"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of

ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same

fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."

 

p. 22 (second paragraph)

 

"Many of our men had served in the Russian Army, and were trained soldiers.

We Armenians were rich and possessed arms. Tartars had never received

military training. They were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives.

Shortly after the killing of the Tartars in our village, the revolution

in Russia was suppressed."

 

has anyone seen this book or has anyone read it? if so do the above mentioned quotes esist?

 

here are some more quotes

http://gencturkler2.8m.com/OVERFLOW/turkish_holocaust.html

 

 

while i seriously doubts that armenians were responseible for even anywhere near hundreds of thousands of turkish deaths, the question is wether such events did occur, and if so what was hte chronological order? did these events occur before or after the armeinan genocide?

 

 

 

also what is known about he author and the so called armeian who testifyes to these things. i personaly tried to find the book, but couldn't

 

any responses would be appreciated

[hytga]

I have another question.

 

does anyone have this book?

 

http://www.gomidas.org/books/nogales.htm

 

"Rafael de Nogales, Four Years beneath the Crescent"

 

i need a small favor.

 

thanks in advance

[bellthecat]

I have another question.

 

does anyone have this book?

"Rafael de Nogales, Four Years beneath the Crescent"

Domino has scanned the original issue of it into a Word file (at least I think he has - well, someone has, since I have a copy of the scan!).

 

NB, ignore the silly gomitas-speak blurb. Nogales was not anti-Armenian, he was pro-Nogales.

[DominO123]

Domino has scanned the original issue of it into a Word file (at least I think he has - well, someone has, since I have a copy of the scan!).

 

NB, ignore the silly gomitas-speak blurb. Nogales was not anti-Armenian, he was pro-Nogales.

Yep I am the author of that scanning.

 

I had a scanning of "men are like that" as well, but it was in my other HD that broke... because of that I ended up mixing two different authors... but I will soon replace it.

 

hytga, some of the quotes from the site you provided don't exist, others have been mistranslated, and others used out of context etc... I already have covered all of them(but my covering of "men are like that" of the past, if you have a copy of, there is a mistake of authors)

 

I have not much time to tell more about this, as I have to get right to work to archivate all my materials before reinstalling my system.

Edited August 16, 2004 by Fadix

[bellthecat]

archivate

"Archivate" ?? Translate Translativate

[hytga]

ok guys i'm back with more questons, quotes. i'd appreciate if anyone has the soruces mentioned could validate them for me. thanks a bunch in advance.

 

 

"What we don't hear about is how Armenian revolutionary committees began forming first in the 1870s, coinciding with the troubles the Armenians made for themselves. How their greedy, fanatical leaders got seduced by hoping to get in on the nationalistic action taking place in the Balkans, without caring what happened to their own people. (A good portion of the victims of Armenian terrorists were fellow Armenians.) At this time, the Sick Man was down on his knees, paralyzed by the economic blackmail presented by the Capitulations imposed by European imperialists. These vultures were looking for any excuse to carve up the Ottoman Empire, and they used the Armenians as pawns. The Armenians took advantage, trusting these powers (which never kept their promises); that's why the Armenians ma**acred Turks. They were hoping... let's have Graves explain it. He was the British Consul in Erzurum, reporting to the British Amba**ador in Istanbul, on January 28, 1895. [british Blue Book, Nr. 6 (1894), pp. 222-223]

 

 

 

These were not arbitrary ma**acres. In 1919, Americans Niles and Sutherland were ordered by the United States Government to investigate the situation in eastern Anatolia, for use as granting relief aid to the Armenians by the American Committee for Near East Relief. These men were not "pro-Turks": "In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are the Armenian quarters, as was evidenced by churches and inscriptions on the houses, while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed. Villages said to have been Armenian were still standing whereas Musulman villages were completely destroyed" [u.S. 867.00/1005]

 

 

"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones, as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth." A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East), No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. A. Lalayan (Armenian Officer), Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East), No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936. "I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones, as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth." The method of execution was for an Armenian government 'mauserist' to walk up behind the condemned Muslim in his home or on the street, place a pistol to the back of his head and blow out his brains. This simple way of getting rid of those who were undesirable in the view of the Armenian government and soon became a common way of paying debts. p. 202 (first and second paragraphs) We closed the roads and mountain pa**es that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead.

[hytga]

if these or other quotes have already been covered, please post a link.

[vava]

"Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill.

 

Is this all from the same book?

[hytga]

no if you look at the bottom of each quote, supposedly it mentions the sources. the first one looks like is from Brittish blue book no 6 1894. the second one seems to be from the U.S. archives. the source of the third quote is mentioned after the first few sentances. Edited February 3, 2005 by hytga

[DominO123]

The first one doesn't come from the said source(Blue Book)... it has probably been writen by a denialist.

 

These were not arbitrary ma**acres. In 1919, Americans Niles and Sutherland were ordered by the United States Government to investigate the situation in eastern Anatolia, for use as granting relief aid to the Armenians by the American Committee for Near East Relief. These men were not "pro-Turks": "In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are the Armenian quarters, as was evidenced by churches and inscriptions on the houses, while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed. Villages said to have been Armenian were still standing whereas Musulman villages were completely destroyed" [u.S. 867.00/1005]

 

Niles and Sutherland were never asked to investigate if in fact the massacres were committed, they were sent there to report about the conditions. The first that really made their report available was Justin McCarthy, he published one work containing the report, and as well quoted it in Muslim and Minorities. The Turkish authorities when receiving Niles and Sutherland had an occasion to use them to advance their causes and change the Americans public opinion. They escorted both men to allegedly show the devastations done by Armenians. Niles and Sutherland haven't witnessed anything, they came there after the event and were escorted by authorities, and finally returned home after. The tables that both men published about Van is obviously wrong, and is amazingly very similar to those presented by Ottoman authorities that are still available in Ottoman archives.

 

Bitlis and Van figures he represent makes no senses at all, when they investigated, Bitlis, where the Armenian population represented about 40% of the entire population, the entire Armenian community was destroyed, yet both man claimed that Armenian villages were still intact, and Muslim ones were destroyed. Which makes me believe that the Ottoman authorities have switched the Armenian and Muslim villages, and since at that time the Ottoman received many Muslim refugees, those have started populating devastated Armenian villages, whom the churches(ways for Nogales and Sutherland to be able to identify them) were destroyed by canon(Nogales himself in his memoirs write about the destruction of churches by canon), they were actually buying all the crap the Ottoman authorities were selling them.

 

"I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones, as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth."

 

Whom was this Lalayan, no one knows, I have never been able to find the Russian source of this alleged quote, and more, the Turks have three versions of this quote, one with the word Turk, another with the word Turk and in parentheses the word Azeris, and this one with the word Muslim. Lalayan position, is nowhere documented, I have tried to find anything without success. From the only reference given, and I think from one of Hovannessians book, since I took a note of this information in a text file I was able to keep(I have lost the rest of the information regarding this, with my other HD that died), according to the work, Lalayan was a close friend of Shaumian, the traitor and Bolshevicwhom participated in the inst oration of Bolshevism and whom sold countless numbers of Armenians to the Red Army getting them killed. Probably the reason why he is mentioned nowhere was because unlike what denialists claims, he wasn't an Armenian hero, but a Bolshevic one, which will explain why anyway to find and located the only source gave no result, and the title of the source itself seems to be a Bolshevic periodical about Heros of the Bolshevic revolution.

 

The method of execution was for an Armenian government 'mauserist' to walk up behind the condemned Muslim in his home or on the street, place a pistol to the back of his head and blow out his brains. This simple way of getting rid of those who were undesirable in the view of the Armenian government and soon became a common way of paying debts. p. 202 (first and second paragraphs) We closed the roads and mountain pa**es that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village. Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead.

 

Men are like that, is not a memoir, but a Novel written by someone that wrote a good part of the work when he didn't knew, neither Armenian, neither Russian, or any other languages to communicate with Ohannus.(the author tell this himself in the preface of the book) The work is the story of a man(Ohannus), and most of the events related are about his village, during the Tartar-Armenian conflicts from 1904-1906, and has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Ottoman Armenians and what happened in 1915. And in the same book, there are many sentences about crimes perpetrated by the Tartars against the Armenians, and the author by the intermediary of his character call it an attempt of extermination from both side. The village in question is now a part of Azerbaijan(Ohannus village), and there are no Armenian living there now.

[hytga]

the author tell this himself in the preface of the book

Domino you you have the book? if so, could you please send me a scanned copy of the preface?

thanks a lot

Edited February 4, 2005 by hytga

[DominO123]

Domino you you have the book? if so, could you please send me a scanned copy of the preface?

thanks

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I had the entire book scanned, and OCDised, don't have it anymore, lost it with my scraped HD.

 

But I do have many parts from the book, and parts of the preface kept in a DVD.

 

Here is the interesting part from the preface I kept.

 

"I acquire languages only by hard and persistent effort. I am not one of those fortunates who absorb them. As for Russian, there is no language less likely to be licked up casually.

 

To be compelled to remain dumb, because an interpreter is not at your elbow at times and occasions when there are a hundred directions to be given, is trying the soul and a strain on your sanity. It is doubly so when at the same time every one persists in speaking to in a language of which you understand not a word.

 

Having learned in our first interview that I did not speak Russian, Turkish, Armenian, Persian, or the tongue of the Tartars, Ohanus refrained from all attempts at conversation except through the medium of pantomime. This was rather extraordinary and drew my attention to him, for the average man is always greatly astonished, somewhat outraged and rather reluctant to accept the fact, that one does not understand his language.

 

And so it was that at a time when my Russian was too limited to enable me to carry on anything but the simplest and most halting conversation in that language with any one but Ohanus, with him I could talk in Russian as glibly as you please. Without his knowing a word of English he would often act as my interpreter, reducing to the Russian I understood the more involved Russian of some petitioner, much to the latter's astonishment. At the end of my first year in the Caucasus I had gained a fair command of Russian."

 

Most of the story denialists quotes were those raging from 1904-1906, where Ohanus was allegedly telling him what happened those years, those first accounts were during his first few months, that he didn't know jack of what Ohanus was telling him.

 

As I said in the past, this work is a Novel, and a propaganda attempt to buy the public opinion after the Bolshevisation of Armenia.

 

If you read the book carefuly, it is all about minorities not being about to govern, massacrating each others, and then, you have Communism and everyone "become" brother, so the Americans had no business there anymore, and everyone were happy.

 

The story was about Ohanus village, and the Turks are so good at quoting it selectivly to hide that part. The village is now part of Azerbaijan, and there are no Armenian living there.

Edited February 4, 2005 by QueBeceR

[DominO123]

BTW, if there are some denialists giving you hard time, know that you can always PM the link, and I will go there to clean.

[hytga]

Thanks a lot Edited February 4, 2005 by hytga