Anoushik Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 The mindless witch-hunters are back Thank God they have no fires to burn people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Sasun, do not let yourself be fooled by the charisma or the eloquence of the master. You are on a wrong spiritual path (and surely not a christian one). Of course, you are free to do as you please but consider at least staying away from the group, taking some time off to calmly evaluate your situation free from the influence of its members. Read other sources (eg the Fathers of the Church) and confront these sane readings with the 'teachings' of your guru. Let's say you cut all ties with the group for a year or so so that you can freely make up your mind. Wherever the truth stands and whatever your decision at the end, such a reflection/meditation period can only prove to be beneficial if not strengthening, spiritually speaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 (edited) Oh man... Axel I appreciate your concern. Let's say you cut all ties with the group for a year or so so that you can freely make up your mind. Wherever the truth stands and whatever your decision at the end, such a reflection/meditation period can only prove to be beneficial if not strengthening, spiritually speaking. This could theoretically apply to a person who did not have a choice of not having any ties. In my case, I have understood it gradually out of my own inner capability. Therefore it would not make any difference. The only sure evidence of truthfullness is ones inner spiritual guidance as it is not conditioned by any outside influences. If I understand correctly your second sentence is related to what I am saying. The trouble with with 'anti-cultist' logic is this superstition that whenever you have a strong connection or admiration of something your mind is surely controlled. What kind of a superstition is that? It is highly arrogant & ignorant to assume that people on a spiritual path are worshipping a cult and have no minds of their own. Perhaps they have watched too many horror movies. Edited July 14, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 I just read at one of the "anti-cult" sites how Mother Theresa was called a hoax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Oh man... Axel I appreciate your concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 I am lost Axel, there is no hope for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 These people are completely clueless... Al Qaeda is also listed as a cult on this site. They should list Saddam, Lenin, Stalin because they were really cults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 I am lost Axel, there is no hope for me if you are on the right path you shouldn't be afraid of keeping away from your master (I don't like this title btw) for a few months. Consider it as a challenge. or are you afraid your inner candle might die off once you are no longer close to him? if so, what kind of faith is that that you have? Spiritual realization certainly does not come with one submitting his/her self to someone else's will. PS: my argument has nothing to do with anoushik's post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 if you are on the right path you shouldn't be afraid of keeping away from your master (I don't like this title btw) for a few months. Consider it as a challenge. or are you afraid your inner candle might die off once you are no longer close to him? if so, what kind of faith is that that you have? You are misunderstanding Axel. First of all, I do not have a master per se, that is to say, I am not a disciple. And of course one's inner light can never be dependant on another person. However, some people are aware of their inner light, some people are neither aware nor would like to have anything to do with it. The thing about gurus/masters is that they are not giving one light, they are only helping you to find and identify yourself with your own light. To be aware of it is not enough. Well, someone like Moon (I mean the person who claims to have come to finish Jesus's job, not to confuse with the other spiritual person by the name of Moon) would claim otherwise. Every true teacher has always pointed out that each person has his own divinity (the words may vary but the meaning is the same). And false teachers will claim that without them there is no salvation, that the disciples should submit to their will. If you have read misrepresentations from anti-cultists then I can see why you have a misunderstanding. Spiritual realization certainly does not come with one submitting his/her self to someone else's will. You are absolutely correct, one should never give up his/her own freedom. But you are also assuming that I am in some kind of dependence or influence. Why would you think so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 And of course one's inner light can never be dependant on another person. However, some people are aware of their inner light, some people are neither aware nor would like to have anything to do with it. The thing about gurus/masters is that they are not giving one light, they are only helping you to find and identify yourself with your own light. what I meant by "inner light" was faith. in this regard, people are not 'unaware' of their 'inner light', they either have it or they don't. in any circumstance, faith is not something that may acquired through teachings or discussions. I am quite suspicious when I read things like "helping you to find and identify yourself with your own light". Whether you want it or not, these people will orient you according to their own beliefs, they will insidiously project their own perspectives in place of yours without your noticing and of course will make you believe you are making 'progress' on your own. What they call 'your own light' is what they want you to believe is 'your own light'. Every true teacher has always pointed out that each person has his own divinity (the words may vary but the meaning is the same). Well I am not sure what you are trying to convey here. I do not feel I have my own "divinity" nor do I believe that "we are all part of God". That the Holy Spirit may at times work through us and inspire some of our deeds is something quite different but I am not ready to make the huge semantic jump between the latter and the former. And false teachers will claim that without them there is no salvation, that the disciples should submit to their will. They are also false teachers that may not tell you this and even say the contrary while effectively making you dependent upon them. You are absolutely correct, one should never give up his/her own freedom. But you are also assuming that I am in some kind of dependence or influence. Why would you think so? If you are not, you should accept my 'challenge'. (and read the Fathers of the Church whose insights are certainly no less valuable than that of contemporary 'gurus') Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted July 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Sasun, I didn't create this thread to specifically show that Sri Chinmoy may be a cult. This wasn't my intention. Regarding Sri Chinmoy: I have no real opinions of him. I haven't read much about him - only visited his site, which seems nice. I still believe that his sayings are inspiring, even though I think that he's just repeating the teachings of many thousand of years of spiritual leaders before him. Like I said to you before it's great that you've found the spirituality that you were looking for and this world is starting to make some sense to you. I have yet to find it, but I don't think I'll find it in spirituality. The reason I became interested in looking into mind control and cults is when Domino pointed out the accusations against Sri Chinmoy. I didn't know that there was such a thing as a Sri Chinmoy Center, where his disciples are living according to a strict lifestyle. And reading from one site to the other I finally came to this last one, which I posted. It is pretty sad when you look at the number of cults, or possible cults. You start to realize that how alone the human being really is, no matter how many billions of humans there are around. Each one of us came into this world alone and will leave alone, and we spent our lives looking for the person who could maybe share our lonely existance with us and maybe, just maybe, we won't feel so lost after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 what I meant by "inner light" was faith. In my understanding faith is the awareness of God, or awareness of ones inner light. in this regard, people are not 'unaware' of their 'inner light', they either have it or they don't. in any circumstance, faith is not something that may acquired through teachings or discussions. I think one can gain faith hearing a teaching. The prostitute did not have any faith and morality, but when Jesus tought her she gained faith and morality. In my opinion many people can gain or nurture faith if they are in the right environment and associate with people who have faith. Actually, I also think that every person has at least some degree of faith but they don't always follow what their faith will tell. I am quite suspicious when I read things like "helping you to find and identify yourself with your own light". Whether you want it or not, these people will orient you according to their own beliefs, they will insidiously project their own perspectives in place of yours without your noticing and of course will make you believe you are making 'progress' on your own. What they call 'your own light' is what they want you to believe is 'your own light'. Sorry, but this is a common superstition in the west. (I am not calling you superstitious, but this view I regard as a superstition) How do you suppose this will happen? Magical powers? Some people have a tendency to fall in influences, these are a minority who will follow under the influence of anyone. Here we are dealing with mature, normal people. If they believe in something they do it with their own choice. It is like you read a good book and your worldview changes because the book gave you important knowledge and insights as well as inspiration. If one was to call this an influence then it is a postitive influence, it is healthy and useful. If we were too cautious no to fall in any influence we should just stop reading any books or listen to anyone who teaches anything. Well I am not sure what you are trying to convey here. I do not feel I have my own "divinity" nor do I believe that "we are all part of God". That the Holy Spirit may at times work through us and inspire some of our deeds is something quite different but I am not ready to make the huge semantic jump between the latter and the former. Here I have a significant disagreement. Jesus has said that Kingdom of Heaven is inside yourself. If you don't have divinity then this proves false. They are also false teachers that may not tell you this and even say the contrary while effectively making you dependent upon them. There are various ways to test the truthfulness of a teacher. Dependence could mean different things. If one is relying on a certain teacher's teachings that does not mean that he/she is dependant on the personality of the teacher. This is a wrong view IMO. In fact, the teacher may not even be aware that people are influenced by their writings. I make a distinction between a big "I" and a small "i". A true teacher will never impose a small "i" upon anyone. If you are not, you should accept my 'challenge'. (and read the Fathers of the Church whose insights are certainly no less valuable than that of contemporary 'gurus') I will accept your 'challenge' if you could make a few pertinent quotes that you think are useful to read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 (edited) Sasun, I didn't create this thread to specifically show that Sri Chinmoy may be a cult. This wasn't my intention. Regarding Sri Chinmoy: I have no real opinions of him. I haven't read much about him - only visited his site, which seems nice. I still believe that his sayings are inspiring, even though I think that he's just repeating the teachings of many thousand of years of spiritual leaders before him. Like I said to you before it's great that you've found the spirituality that you were looking for and this world is starting to make some sense to you. I have yet to find it, but I don't think I'll find it in spirituality. The reason I became interested in looking into mind control and cults is when Domino pointed out the accusations against Sri Chinmoy. I didn't know that there was such a thing as a Sri Chinmoy Center, where his disciples are living according to a strict lifestyle. And reading from one site to the other I finally came to this last one, which I posted. Anoushik, I didn't think that your opening this thread was specifically directed against Sri Chinmoy. What I strongly object is the website's extremely biased views on spiritual groups. They brand all groups, even terrorist groups together and present all of them in dark colors. They are not honest to present the objective picture as they claim. I have just sent them an email requesting that they add additional information under Sri Chinmoy. If they are really honest they will present both views. So far they have included the views of Sri Chinmoy's ill wishers. There is one false biography of Sri Chinmoy written by somone who claims to be an ex-disciple but his/her name is not even mentioned, not even a fake name. I requested that they include a link to a website where present disciples communicate with each other as well as outsiders and tell much about their experiences. Let's see, if they are really honest they will do that and let the readers make un unbiased decision having all the information. I am speaking mostly about Sri Chinmoy's portrayal because I know this group better among all others. But some groups I know of are not at all harmful likewise and are included here. I am not familiar with many groups listed on that website so I am not giving any comments about those. Some are really malicious, like the suicidal groups. Yes, those must be exposed, although it is pretty clear that even without an explanation a suicidal group is a dangerous and malicious influence. But let that alone. Let's see some of their criteria how they distinguish what is a good group/path and what is a bad group http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecente...TE.htm#behavior . 4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism. a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking b. Chanting c. Meditating d. Praying e. Speaking in "tongues" f. Singing or humming This is really sick. If you sing, chant, pray, meditate then your mind is being conrolled? Reminds of a passage from the medieval "witch-hunting guideline for the expert witch-hunter" These people are against all spirituality. And I can't believe how one can imagine that singing is a negative thing. One must be exremely superstitious to say that. It is pretty sad when you look at the number of cults, or possible cults. You start to realize that how alone the human being really is, no matter how many billions of humans there are around. Each one of us came into this world alone and will leave alone, and we spent our lives looking for the person who could maybe share our lonely existance with us and maybe, just maybe, we won't feel so lost after all. Humanity is always in search of something, you may call it happiness or freedom. Many spiritual people call that salvation or liberation or God-realization, and they are in search of ways and paths. And (true) spiritual groups serve that purpose. They find that one can be happy without another person but with God (they may call it other names like Enlightenment). Some will abuse these ideals and organize cults of their personality to make profit or lead people to suicide and other harmful things. From a distance all groups seem the same but they are diametrically opposite. Edited July 14, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 I have just sent them an email requesting yes qo terr@ lineyi cheyi ani da / de lav antsats lini menak zguysh dur@ chbatses antsanotnerin mek el tesar ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 yes qo terr@ lineyi cheyi ani da / de lav antsats lini menak zguysh dur@ chbatses antsanotnerin mek el tesar ....... Hmm... what is the prize on his head? this seems like a good business opportunity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 vat chi Vat chi du et huysov mna bayst te apahovutyn lav bana mi hat gone poli pet dir dran korqin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 (edited) I just read at one of the "anti-cult" sites how Mother Theresa was called a hoax. Is there any claims of sexual abuses against her? Is there any charges of her stealing other peoples money? Is there charges that she was not in India living nearly in the same condition as those she was giving hope? It is obvious that you can't compare the charges against her with those against Chinmoy. Edited July 14, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Is there any claims of sexual abuses against her? Is there any charges of her stealing other peoples money? Is there charges that she was not in India living nearly in the same condition as those she was giving hope? It is obvious that you can't compare the charges against her with those against Chinmoy. And as for Mother Theresa, again you are missing the point. Why do the charges have to be the same? They are false charges, that is the point I just wanted to point out that one can do selfless service for the humanity for her life, one may even die for the humanity, but there will always be people who will doubt and say bad things and call her a hoax. I don't get it, how you can miss the point... and yes, they are talking about allegations of sexual abuse by Mother Theresa to some women... absurd indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Humanity is always in search of something, you may call it happiness or freedom. Many spiritual people call that salvation or liberation or God-realization, and they are in search of ways and paths. This reason alone is enough for me to say that there is no God Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 This reason alone is enough for me to say that there is no God But people search and find God If you search you will also find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 (edited) And as for Mother Theresa, again you are missing the point. Why do the charges have to be the same? They are false charges, that is the point I just wanted to point out that one can do selfless service for the humanity for her life, one may even die for the humanity, but there will always be people who will doubt and say bad things and call her a hoax. I don't get it, how you can miss the point... and yes, they are talking about allegations of sexual abuse by Mother Theresa to some women... absurd indeed. Sasun, pratically the entire planet knows Mother Theresa, thousands and thousands have seen her, she had her mission that still exist... the claims about Theresa goes only as far as trying to attract the media to have publicity etc... Chinmoy on the other hand is one of the heads of a sect that per followers there is the most accusations... if this was only about angry disciple you will expect those accusations to be in the average... they are NOT!!! It is said that they have 4000 followers... only the quarter where mother Theresa has her main mission is situated to, hundreds, even thousands have been trained by her mission... NOT A SINGLE SUCH ACCUSATION. In your post on the other thread you ask me to visit the yahoo group of the members... You mean a controled group founded after the free board about chinmoy was founded? On the two other yahoo groups there are members that post as well, some have openly asked to hide their IP addresses because they were afraid of the repercutions. Adding both groups there are more than 10,000 posts, against the more recent biased site that has about 4000 or so set up to answer back. Oh and Sasun, you have abused your moderator powers by trying to cut the critics about Chinmoy from a thread that is dedicated to him... and more, you have even commited sabotage of the new thread you have build by adding: "and some irrelevant posts." I think you should not moderate the theology boards. Edited July 15, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 (edited) Sasun, pratically the entire planet knows Mother Theresa, thousands and thousands have seen her, she had her mission that still exist... the claims about Theresa goes only as far as trying to attract the media to have publicity etc... Chinmoy on the other hand is one of the heads of a sect that per followers there is the most accusations... if this was only about angry disciple you will expect those accusations to be in the average... they are NOT!!! It is said that they have 4000 followers... only the quarter where mother Theresa has her main mission is situated to, hundreds, even thousands have been trained by her mission... NOT A SINGLE SUCH ACCUSATION. Not a single such accusation? I saw accusers of Sri Chinmoy accusing Mother Theresa. What is the point of your argument? A lot of people accuse that Mother Theresa did not have miracles. Do you believe she did miracles? If not then you too have an accusation. In your post on the other thread you ask me to visit the yahoo group of the members... You mean a controled group founded after the free board about chinmoy was founded? On the two other yahoo groups there are members that post as well, some have openly asked to hide their IP addresses because they were afraid of the repercutions. Adding both groups there are more than 10,000 posts, against the more recent biased site that has about 4000 or so set up to answer back. That is BS Domino, how do you know what is controlled and what is not? Do you have proof? Maybe the sites that you are using are controlled, how can you tell? (Oh, I know, you are invoking your magic power to tell truth from lie )They have the same status as far as one can objectively see. Dont be biased, you cannot blame without proofs. Give me proofs not conspiracy theories of control. Such arguments are not even worth answering. And you have to count testimonies not the number of posts. One person can make 10000 post with one single accusation, the number of posts proves nothing. Oh and Sasun, you have abused your moderator powers by trying to cut the critics about Chinmoy from a thread that is dedicated to him... and more, you have even commited sabotage of the new thread you have build by adding: "and some irrelevant posts." You are wrong, now you are starting with false accusations against me Domino. Shame on you, you will never stop with defaming and accusing people only to win your stupid argument and project your humangous ego. I have been posting quotes in the thread, that thread is for quotes, and I inted to post more quotes. You have criticism post in the criticism thread. Nobody took your right of freedom of speech, but posting criticism in the quotes thread is off-topic, and it is plain trashing. Besides, defaming a person is against the forum rules. I could simply delete all baseless and unproven defamations per forum code of conduct. But let it stay, or else I could be accused of being part of international conspiracy. And the irrelevan posts were posts that had nothing to do with Sri Chinmoy. Have some sense finally Domino, you are accusing me in a rush without thinking. I think you should not moderate the theology boards. I think you should have some shame... Domino, I have exposed the stupidity of one of your sources in this thread. What do you have to say about it? Do you think meditation is a harmful practice and causes mind control. You practice meditation don't you? I don't know if you sing but consider that singing is harmful for the mind too Edited July 15, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Sasun, you're blinded and really brainwashed here... maybe for you your view here is not exeptional, but for the rest of us it is really clear. The accusations against mother Thersa have nothing to do with misconduct, the pont here is not about if she did miracles or not... but rather if she lived nearly in the same condition as those that she was trying to help for decade etc... Theresa faced over ten fold more people than Chinmoy, while there isn't any accusation of her having stolen other peoples money, sexual abuses etc... the only accusations have to do with things irrelevent to the discussion such as her conservative views. About the forums... HOW DO I KNOW? Sasun if you read those boards criticisng him you'll see right away that they are not controled, because some times few comes in an post by protecting Chinmoy... while the site you provide has one aim, it provides all the brainwashing sites and the so-called hyocritical messages of Chinmoy telling how humans will be god when they replace their love for power... while he's the typical example of someone that is obsessed with power. One of the two discussion group about Chinmoy, in its statment it clearly state that they have no real opinion... and that the site is only meant for the members and ex-members of Chinmoy... and the very, very large majority of what they write is negative... including some disciples. If you are at a point where you believe that one person could have posted those over 10,000 posts... sorry Sasun I will have to conclude that in this matter you are delusional... Lastly, you last argument does not make sense at all... I understand that you are angry that I blowed your idealistic bubble regarding a criminal and sexual predator, but this does not guive you the right to accuse me here. Your so-called quotes from Chinmoy are posted in an open board, the aim of an open board is for discussion, while you have no problem to read people saying how a quote is exellenent etc... but when Chinmoy is exposed for the criminal he is you cut it and even deliberatly try to commit sabotage. The forum code doesn't protect criminals to be exposed for whom they really are. No matter what if someone was to post quotes and dedicate a thread about Talaat or Hitler, I will answer back, and I'm sure you will have no problem with that, just because you think that a criminal is a saint, it doesn't give you the right to cut threads based on your personal belief, as a moderator you have to moderate. While you are doing a pretty well job in the rest of the forums I do believe that because of your involvment in theology you should let other moderators moderating the boards involving theology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Domino, bring facts and answer my questions... I don't need rhetoric, it doesn't count. Don't defame a person by calling him a criminal. Don't be such a foolish arrogant person, you are just a forumer not a judge. It is not Domino who decides who is criminal and who is not, but only the court and law enforcement agencies. And stop accusing me of sabotaging a thread. You are the one who sabotaged my thread by bringing defamatory material. You have downgraded yourself into a mindless basher and you call me brainwashed? You have yet to bring any facts of crime and sex charges, period. Don't you get it that you are making a fool of yourself. As I made clear before, you don't have to accept Sri Chinmoy in any way, but you have no right to defame him. Dont compare with Talaat, Talaat killed millions of people, there are tons of facts and documents. Your views on Sri Chinmoy are based on your hate to religions, particularly gurus, and 2-3 days worth of reading internet accounts. How many times one has to say that internet posts do not constitute facts. And as I have already said, I have read those threads that you think I have not read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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